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None of this Grundy talk appeals to me.

Maxy is not a good enough kick to have up forward (in fact, he terrifies me every time he kicks for goal - although he is not alone), and there is no assurance Grundy will be fit enough for FIVE years to warrant that kind of money. 

I get that we'll need another ruckman if Jackson goes (and we are in a premiership window), but we should look for somebody younger to learn the craft, or maybe throw some good $$$ at someone like Tom De Koning when out of contract. Flynn?

With the quality of our midfield, it almost doesn't even matter... I think we need someone decent/good who can help out to give Max a chop out, and let him *gulp* roam forward to kick *goals*

On the topic of goals, instead of plonking money on a ??? Grundy, we should probably focus on landing someone up forward who can kick goals, Fritter should not be our #1 goalkicker. 

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Currently our 2nd ruck option is Weid...

We are screwed if Max goes down!

For 700k a season which would be less that LJ's contract, we will get more out of Grundy.

Rucks often go fine into their Mid 30's.

The talk of all these other promising young rucks is twaddle....Most are not available, and most won't be good for years.   Even Preuss still looks pretty hopeless....Good ruckman there are not many in the league....We would have the 2 best  in the league going by recent AA selections.   Would be a fearsome prospect for any team to come up against.

*We will still be trying to recruit a good forward regardless of what happens in this space.

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I'm also confused by Goodwins presser yesterday.

He stated that they have been really happy with Gawns progress in the forward line and could see this as something that could be used more often down the track.

Checks notes and see that Gawn hasn't kicked a goal since round 12 against Sydney...

Goody is a funny bugger. ...

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Kane Cornes thinks we should go for Grundy.

Says he'd be a significant upgrade on Jackson for the next two years, is a better ruckman than Jackson and feels sorry for the poor fella who's gone 10 rounds in the ruck with Gawn, only to then come up against a fresh Brody Grundy or vice versa Max Gawn.

And that's not even accounting for the bounty of picks we'll get for LJ.

I'll be annoyed if Geelong once again score a trade or draft pick over us (eg - Isaac Smith, Max Holmes) 

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I can see Godwin's thinking with Gawn spending more time forward in the years to come. 

But we'd have to reshuffle our forwardline around to make it work. 

Lets say we got Grundy for a second round pick, grabbed a small forward with genuine finishing skills who has an appetite to pressure and chase like Sheezel. He also has unbelievable x factor which we need forward of the ball. Pickett is not enough. 

Then we could grab a developing tall leading forward with a later first round pick and have Tom McDonald or Ben Brown in the meantime for that second key tall role with JVR in the wings. 

I can see so much scope for improvement with Jackson leaving. It's almost like Christmas. He helped us win a flag and now we can bring in a ruckman who is without question a better player when fully fit plus you add even more top end talent to team who is competing at the top. 

Really exciting. 

 

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12 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Currently our 2nd ruck option is Weid...

We are screwed if Max goes down!

For 700k a season which would be less that LJ's contract, we will get more out of Grundy.

Rucks often go fine into their Mid 30's.

The talk of all these other promising young rucks is twaddle....Most are not available, and most won't be good for years.   Even Preuss still looks pretty hopeless....Good ruckman there are not many in the league....We would have the 2 best  in the league going by recent AA selections.   Would be a fearsome prospect for any team to come up against.

*We will still be trying to recruit a good forward regardless of what happens in this space.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Here's a list of the current no.1 ruckman, who were acquired by their club either by trade or delisted free agency. And note that they weren't the no.1 ruckman at their previous club. It goes to show that there are lesser rucks at clubs who can become no.1 ruck at a new club. Ryder and McEvoy are the exception, as they were no.1 at their previously club.

Collingwood: Cameron (since Grundy has been injured)

Carlton: Pittonet

Swans: Hickey

Geelong: Stanley

GWS: Preuss

Richmond: Nankervis

Port Ade: Lycett

Gold Coast: Witts

 

 

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3 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

I can see Godwin's thinking with Gawn spending more time forward in the years to come. 

But we'd have to reshuffle our forwardline around to make it work. 

Lets say we got Grundy for a second round pick, grabbed a small forward with genuine finishing skills who has an appetite to pressure and chase like Sheezel. He also has unbelievable x factor which we need forward of the ball. Pickett is not enough. 

Then we could grab a developing tall leading forward with a later first round pick and have Tom McDonald or Ben Brown in the meantime for that second key tall role with JVR in the wings. 

I can see so much scope for improvement with Jackson leaving. It's almost like Christmas. He helped us win a flag and now we can bring in a ruckman who is without question a better player when fully fit plus you add even more top end talent to team who is competing at the top. 

Really exciting. 

 

It does feel like our ability to flip Hogan for May again.

I completely agree about another Kozzy. Gawn, BB, Fritsch, Kozzy, another Kozzy and a third tall in TMac or JVR is a very dangerous forwardline. Maybe a little lopsided, which would need Spargo and ANB for gut run, pressure and Spargo's ball use.

Whatever happens with LJ, now that we have our core contracted for the long term, I think we'll be fine.

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11 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Why so that in 2-3 years time we completely fall off the cliff because both our ruckman are banged up and probably retired with no up and coming ruckman coming through and no talent as well because we spent that first round pick on a 29 old ruckman with injury problems.

At least by the time Gawn is ready to retire we'll have a Meek/Flynn ready to take on the number role full time as they should then be at the peak of their career.

 

who's to say that in 2-3 years we won't be able to grab the next meek/flynn who's stuck at a club not getting games? NM have a queue of tall boys coming through behind goldy and xerri, the cats have drafted two talls they rate highly both behind stanley blic and sav at the time being. 

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That means we're still paying him $700k a year for 5 years? And he's already 29? Nah

Save that money and throw a huge contract at Harry McKay next year.

what if it was 900 for the next two years and only 450-600 for the three years after that. suddenly it sounds far more reasonable. 700 over 5 is an average contracts can be loaded in any each way. 

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Just now, Turner said:

who's to say that in 2-3 years we won't be able to grab the next meek/flynn who's stuck at a club not getting games? NM have a queue of tall boys coming through behind goldy and xerri, the cats have drafted two talls they rate highly both behind stanley blic and sav at the time being. 

what if it was 900 for the next two years and only 450-600 for the three years after that. suddenly it sounds far more reasonable. 700 over 5 is an average contracts can be loaded in any each way. 

We'd have Grundy for 5 years on good money. Why not get the Meek/Flynn now, plus drafting a rookie ruckman.

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17 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Here's a list of the current no.1 ruckman, who were acquired by their club either by trade or delisted free agency. And note that they weren't the no.1 ruckman at their previous club. It goes to show that there are lesser rucks at clubs who can become no.1 ruck at a new club. Ryder and McEvoy are the exception, as they were no.1 at their previously club.

Collingwood: Cameron (since Grundy has been injured)

Carlton: Pittonet

Swans: Hickey

Geelong: Stanley

GWS: Preuss

Richmond: Nankervis

Port Ade: Lycett

Gold Coast: Witts

 

 

Yeah i don't dispute that there are cheap offerings and they may become the number one ruck for their team.

Honestly though, out of those listed how many have come close to Gawn or Grundy output over the years.

Personally i don't rate many/any of those mentioned above, they have all got some pretty big flaws within their games.

If we get Grundy i am sure many will change their tune when it comes to appreciating him.

We apparently overpaid Lever/May/Langdon IIRC going by many on this site.

If Max was up for trade would he be worth 700-800k a season?

i am glad supporters are not the ones recruiting, wildly under-rating players from opposition teams apparently  is a thing we do!

Edited by NeveroddoreveN
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11 minutes ago, mo64 said:

We'd have Grundy for 5 years on good money. Why not get the Meek/Flynn now, plus drafting a rookie ruckman.

simply and for some reason this is going to shock a lot of DLers on this thread, because grundy is better

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2 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Yeah i don't dispute that there are cheap offerings and they may become the number one ruck for their team.

Honestly though, out of those listed how many have come close to Gawn or Grundy output over the years.

Personally i don't rate many/any of those mentioned above, they have all got some pretty big flaws within their games.

If we get Grundy i am sure many will change their tune when it comes to appreciating him.

We apparently overpaid Lever/May/Langdon IIRC going by many on this site.

If Max was up for trade would he be worth 700-800k a season?

i am glad supporters are not the ones recruiting, wildly under-rating players from opposition teams apparently  is a thing we do!

You don't know how Grundy is going to come up post injuries. It's a huge risk giving anyone at his age a 5 year deal, let alone a player coming off consecutive long term injuries.

If either Grundy or Max were proven forwards, it maybe worth a punt, but they're not. 

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28 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Here's a list of the current no.1 ruckman, who were acquired by their club either by trade or delisted free agency. And note that they weren't the no.1 ruckman at their previous club. It goes to show that there are lesser rucks at clubs who can become no.1 ruck at a new club. Ryder and McEvoy are the exception, as they were no.1 at their previously club.

Collingwood: Cameron (since Grundy has been injured)

Carlton: Pittonet

Swans: Hickey

Geelong: Stanley

GWS: Preuss

Richmond: Nankervis

Port Ade: Lycett

Gold Coast: Witts

 

 

One premiership ruckman in your list.

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7 minutes ago, Turner said:

simply and for some reason this is going to shock a lot of DLers on this thread, because grundy is better

Is Grundy better than Darcy Cameron and Mason Cox? On paper the obvious answer is yes, but the reality is that the Pies are performing better without Grundy. Cameron and Cox are far better forwards than Grundy, which makes the tandem work.

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2 minutes ago, old55 said:

One premiership ruckman in your list.

2 Premiership players (Nankervis and Lycett) who were involved in 4 out of the last 5 premierships. Your point is irrelevant.

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14 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

I can see Godwin's thinking with Gawn spending more time forward in the years to come. 

But we'd have to reshuffle our forwardline around to make it work. 

Lets say we got Grundy for a second round pick, grabbed a small forward with genuine finishing skills who has an appetite to pressure and chase like Sheezel. He also has unbelievable x factor which we need forward of the ball. Pickett is not enough. 

Then we could grab a developing tall leading forward with a later first round pick and have Tom McDonald or Ben Brown in the meantime for that second key tall role with JVR in the wings. 

I can see so much scope for improvement with Jackson leaving. It's almost like Christmas. He helped us win a flag and now we can bring in a ruckman who is without question a better player when fully fit plus you add even more top end talent to team who is competing at the top. 

Really exciting. 

 

In theory it works.  But Grundy's barely got on the park this year and hasn't been at his best for a number of years.  He's 28 now.  How do we know he can get back there and play at the level consistently?

What if we do all the things you propose but rather than get Grundy, get the best ruckman not getting regular senior footy (eg Lloyd Meek - I'm sure there would be others) and then have an extra pick (and salary) to go key forward shopping or at least to the draft.  If just going to the draft means we have cap space then see if we can re-negotiate current contracts so we have more space for a warchest the following year.

Grundy just doesn't add up to me

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24 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Yeah i don't dispute that there are cheap offerings and they may become the number one ruck for their team.

Honestly though, out of those listed how many have come close to Gawn or Grundy output over the years.

Personally i don't rate many/any of those mentioned above, they have all got some pretty big flaws within their games.

If we get Grundy i am sure many will change their tune when it comes to appreciating him.

We apparently overpaid Lever/May/Langdon IIRC going by many on this site.

If Max was up for trade would he be worth 700-800k a season?

i am glad supporters are not the ones recruiting, wildly under-rating players from opposition teams apparently  is a thing we do!

I don't underrate Grundy - I just think ruckman are not as critical as you.  Gawn and Grundy have been the best ruckmen in the comp over the last 5-10 years.  How many premierships between them?  And I actually think most of Gawn's value is through his contested marking ability in defence and around the ground rather than his tap work which while it is elite doesn't swing games.

In an ideal world you could have Grundy and Gawn in the same team - but in that world surely you'd have some decent key forwards and more midfielders with great kicking skills already in the team.

Nothing against Grundy but think the picks and cap space could be better spent elsewhere.  I also think Freo are crazy to sell the farm for Jackson when they also need key forwards.

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The problem with Gawn (and Grundy) playing forward is it's really hard to carry more than 1 immobile non tackler in a forward line and maintain forward pressure.

Jackson's mobility is what allowed Brown with McDonald and Fritsch to work.

If that's Gawn/Grundy then we're really going to struggle to play Ben Brown. Which honestly might be ok because Ben Brown's struggling to play AFL too, so it's a bit mutual. But it probably means calling time on the structure and value of the 2021 forward set up.

Gawn positioning 55m away from long bombs, with McDonald and/or JVR and/or another medium marking option and Fritsch all working to various space off that reference point makes sense. It's what the Pies are doing now with Cox and did with great success in 2018. It's often how the Tigers use Lynch. 

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42 minutes ago, Mr Steve said:

Not sure if we want him or not BUT how good would it be if he played in the 2023 Grand Final won the Norm Smith and we beat Collingwood by say 50 points. With an after the siren goal kicked by Grundy from 50 mt. 

Fixed it for you

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24 minutes ago, deelusions from afar said:

I don't underrate Grundy - I just think ruckman are not as critical as you.  Gawn and Grundy have been the best ruckmen in the comp over the last 5-10 years.  How many premierships between them?  And I actually think most of Gawn's value is through his contested marking ability in defence and around the ground rather than his tap work which while it is elite doesn't swing games.

In an ideal world you could have Grundy and Gawn in the same team - but in that world surely you'd have some decent key forwards and more midfielders with great kicking skills already in the team.

Nothing against Grundy but think the picks and cap space could be better spent elsewhere.  I also think Freo are crazy to sell the farm for Jackson when they also need key forwards.

Well obviously good ruckman don't equate to Premierships...You need a lot to go right! Last year how many AA players did we have in contention....We had a lot go right!

Getting Grundy will not stop us looking for forward players.

Fwiw Jackson is being touted as getting 800K+,  Grundy on 700K with Collingwood paying some of this for the next 5 years.

There is an extra 100K a year to spend on that big bodied forward we need already.

Personally i see that as a net win, LJ is promising but no way he should be getting as much as Max or more than Grundy at this  stage in his career.

We would need to pick up a developing ruck also, but they come pretty cheap and not much is expected of them early on.

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Rubbish topic !!   All this is doing is inflating Kane Cornes & Matthew Lloyd's already enlarged egos !!

 

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39 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Well obviously good ruckman don't equate to Premierships...You need a lot to go right! Last year how many AA players did we have in contention....We had a lot go right!

Getting Grundy will not stop us looking for forward players.

Fwiw Jackson is being touted as getting 800K+,  Grundy on 700K with Collingwood paying some of this for the next 5 years.

There is an extra 100K a year to spend on that big bodied forward we need already.

Personally i see that as a net win, LJ is promising but no way he should be getting as much as Max or more than Grundy at this  stage in his career.

We would need to pick up a developing ruck also, but they come pretty cheap and not much is expected of them early on.

For starters, the Pies aren't paying part of $700k, they're paying part of $1m+.

And in 3 years time, if things don't work out for either player at their new club, Jackson would still have massive trade currency, whilst Grundy will be worth zilch.

If Grundy had 2 years to run, by all means give it a shot. 5 years is a ridiculous contract to take on.

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