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Club considered standing down Goodwin during season?


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2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Yep, that's a more than fair point. I think the very specific nature of them and the fact they're included in legal documents that ended in a substantial payout give them some credibility, but you're right in that we don't know exactly how much.

I just think the people jumping to unfounded conclusions that the Dr is 'incompetent' are pretty silly.

For mine, the issue seems to be that the 'philosophies weren't aligned' which is what I seem to recall pert saying in one of the stories written. That's pretty clear for us diehard supporters to understand given the difference between Burgess and Misson as far as how conservative both were with injury management.

I can categorically tell you that whilst what goes into legal documents should be truthful and founded on a proper basis, that is not always the case.

But it's highly unlikely what the doctor alleged had no truth. Instead, what I am suggesting is that there is a reasonable likelihood that the doctor's version of events is not necessarily the truth. Whether due to exaggeration or a particular recollection that may not be correct.

I'd also add in relation to the settlement with the doctor that, on its own, settling a claim being made against the club for $100k does not mean there was a view within the club, or on legal advice, of any wrongdoing. The cost of continuing to defend the claim, including having a hearing and potentially having the matter being heard publicly and be reported on, are all things which motivate defendants (i.e. in this case the club) to opt for a settlement. The doctor's case may have been weak at law, but the cost of defending it all the way was likely to exceed $100k.

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22 minutes ago, Demonland said:

Turmoil at the Dees at Casey today.

Screenshot 2022-02-09 at 11-44-46 64,958 Melbourne Demons Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images.png

Screenshot 2022-02-09 at 11-45-04 64,958 Melbourne Demons Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images.png

Screenshot 2022-02-09 at 11-46-06 64,958 Melbourne Demons Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images.png

Well there is the clear evidence needed to sack Goody. In order of photos.

He touched/mishandled a player.

He said something funny to a player.

He yelled out to players.

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21 minutes ago, hemingway said:

There are a lot of distasteful things today, but trial by media is right up there. 

Don’t worry about the victim or the accused or it’s impact on the individual or family. But hey, it’s a headline. And the reporters are patted on the back, told it’s a great story and get their pay cheque. Behaving no better than trolls on social media. No time for reflection or context, just be published or be damned. 

 

This is the price we pay for a free media and democracy.

Would you prefer the Chinese system Ernest?

Edited by old dee
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1 minute ago, titan_uranus said:

I can categorically tell you that whilst what goes into legal documents should be truthful and founded on a proper basis, that is not always the case.

But it's highly unlikely what the doctor alleged had no truth. Instead, what I am suggesting is that there is a reasonable likelihood that the doctor's version of events is not necessarily the truth. Whether due to exaggeration or a particular recollection that may not be correct.

I'd also add in relation to the settlement with the doctor that, on its own, settling a claim being made against the club for $100k does not mean there was a view within the club, or on legal advice, of any wrongdoing. The cost of continuing to defend the claim, including having a hearing and potentially having the matter being heard publicly and be reported on, are all things which motivate defendants (i.e. in this case the club) to opt for a settlement. The doctor's case may have been weak at law, but the cost of defending it all the way was likely to exceed $100k.

I seem to recall reading somewhere the payout was more like 250k. That seems a lot for a club with tight finances to be paying out for allegations with no basis in fact?

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4 minutes ago, old dee said:

This is the price we pay for a free media and democracy.

Would you prefer the Chinese system Ernest?

It’s an unfortunate price. I would prefer  higher standards and less scandal based reporting. Rather than an acceptance that it is the price of a free press and democracy. Strict press/media standards has its advantages. 

 

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3 minutes ago, hemingway said:

It’s an unfortunate price. I would prefer  higher standards and less scandal based reporting. Rather than an acceptance that it is the price of a free press and democracy. Strict press/media standards has its advantages. 

 

To be fair to the press, it's the people who decide whether to pay for what the press provides. As such, society itself is guilty of supporting gutter journalism  journalism of a low ethical standard.

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1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Can't agree that it's "grandstanding" or "virtue signalling".

A 45 year old man, who is the coach, boss and (by player admission) like a 'father figure' with a history of gambling addiction which got to the point of endangering his career and quite possibly negatively impacting his personal life and relationships, spending time gambling with those he's charged with being responsible for is pretty clearly not a good look. Especially if you're talking about the considerations of interstate parents of 18-19 year olds at the club.

It's a completely different context to you having a beer with your boss at the pub.

Sure, it's not end of the world, but clearly Ox as a former gambling addict recognizes it as problematic.

 

 

You have no idea of the context of the "gambling" though and neither does Schwarz which makes it pretty silly to comment or cast aspersions without knowing the full story.

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11 minutes ago, hemingway said:

It’s an unfortunate price. I would prefer  higher standards and less scandal based reporting. Rather than an acceptance that it is the price of a free press and democracy. Strict press/media standards has its advantages. 

 

Agree but how do you get them? or am I just old and have given up.

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$100,000 is not substantial and is unlikely related to any claims of bullying. 

It was an unfair dismissal claim. He would have been given reasons for being sacked and contested them.

As part of that claim he has alleged bullying, allegations which were unlikely to have been proven. 

The parties agreed to a $100,000 severance, probably equating to being paid out to the end of his contract. 

People are reading this as if compensation for bullying, but it all seems pretty standard to me, including the NDA.

 

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45 minutes ago, hemingway said:

There are a lot of distasteful things today, but trial by media is right up there. 

Don’t worry about the victim or the accused or it’s impact on the individual or family. But hey, it’s a headline. And the reporters are patted on the back, told it’s a great story and get their pay cheque. Behaving no better than trolls on social media. No time for reflection or context, just be published or be damned. 

 

Agree.

Whilst there maybe some kind of factual basis to some of the allegations, the way the media sensationalizes things at times is quite disgraceful.  One of the lines I read from the Herald Sun article was that one of the things Goodwin had been accused of was "gambling in public" FFS, it's very much a legal activity and Gillam McLaughlin and the media are the last one's who should be looking down on it, with with the amount of sports betting advertising around the AFL at present.  Goodwin may be using the product, but at least he's not the one shoving it down everyones (including kids) throats every add break on TV and game break at the ground.

Whilst there is a right of a free media, there also comes some rights of privacy for individuals as well, and that's where I feel the media has little regards or filter.  At times, I really think they do/should have a duty of care to weigh up the public's right to know (/the media's right to cheap sensationalized attention), with the mental health of the individuals involved.  It's become a fairly well established fact that many AFL footballers stucggle with the intensity of media attention on them, and logically that also applies to coaches as well.  I'd really love to know how well the culture and individual personalities in some of these media outlets would stand up to the same level of scrutiny they so frequently and publicly subject others to?

Edited by Rodney (Balls) Grinter
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Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

You have no idea of the context of the "gambling" though and neither does Schwarz which makes it pretty silly to comment or cast aspersions without knowing the full story.

Firstly, how would you know what Schwarz knows? He mentioned in his comments they were doing it for 'a period of time', which seems to indicate he has some insight.

Secondly, I've already outlined the context: A 45 year old man, who is the coach, boss and (by player admission) like a 'father figure' with a history of gambling addiction which got to the point of endangering his career and quite possibly negatively impacting his personal life and relationships, spending time gambling with those he's charged with being responsible for is pretty clearly not a good look. Especially if you're talking about the considerations of interstate parents of 18-19 year olds at the club.

I'm not crucifying Goodwin, and neither was Schwarz if you've actually heard all this comments, but it pretty clearly isn't a good look.

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4 minutes ago, Skuit said:

$100,000 is not substantial and is unlikely related to any claims of bullying. 

It was an unfair dismissal claim. He would have been given reasons for being sacked and contested them.

As part of that claim he has alleged bullying, allegations which were unlikely to have been proven. 

The parties agreed to a $100,000 severance, probably equating to being paid out to the end of his contract. 

People are reading this as if compensation for bullying, but it all seems pretty standard to me, including the NDA.

 

Genuine question, can you point me to where the 100K severance is reported?

The only thing I saw in the reports yesterday was he sued the club for 250k.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere the payout was more like 250k. That seems a lot for a club with tight finances to be paying out for allegations with no basis in fact?

The fact is none of the accusations may have been true, but the Dr had a legitimate right to make a workplace complaint under the law.  The legal wording of that right is "are an employee making a complaint or enquiry about their employment.".  And then the employee is under an obligation to not take an adverse action against the employee because of the complaint.  The first adverse action listed is "dismisses the employee", and doing that in response to a complaint is against the law.  Maximum fine if the court considered it a serious adverse action is $670,000.  Of course it may have just been a co-incidence that after 8 years the Dr got sacked 5 days after making serious allegations.  But that is the reason why a settlement would have been paid, as the clubs position was hopeless because of the way it was handled, not because there is necessarily any truth to the allegations.

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1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

Firstly, how would you know what Schwarz knows? He mentioned in his comments they were doing it for 'a period of time', which seems to indicate he has some insight.

Secondly, I've already outlined the context: A 45 year old man, who is the coach, boss and (by player admission) like a 'father figure' with a history of gambling addiction which got to the point of endangering his career and quite possibly negatively impacting his personal life and relationships, spending time gambling with those he's charged with being responsible for is pretty clearly not a good look. Especially if you're talking about the considerations of interstate parents of 18-19 year olds at the club.

I'm not crucifying Goodwin, and neither was Schwarz if you've actually heard all this comments, but it pretty clearly isn't a good look.

Was he ringleading the gambling? Was he in charge of a punters club where players were kicking large sums each week? Were they heading to the track or the tables at Crown every day/week? Were they playing poker or blackjack while locked up in hubs for $1 a round? Were they chucking on a couple of quaddies one day while having some beers at Sorrento Hotel? 

The context is important.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Was he ringleading the gambling? Was he in charge of a punters club where players were kicking large sums each week? Were they heading to the track or the tables at Crown every day/week? Were they playing poker or blackjack while locked up in hubs for $1 a round? Were they chucking on a couple of quaddies one day while having some beers at Sorrento Hotel? 

The context is important.

Only if you want to spoil a good story Dr.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Was he ringleading the gambling? Was he in charge of a punters club where players were kicking large sums each week? Were they heading to the track or the tables at Crown every day/week? Were they playing poker or blackjack while locked up in hubs for $1 a round? Were they chucking on a couple of quaddies one day while having some beers at Sorrento Hotel? 

The context is important.

I've already outlined the context. What you're talking about is details of the gambling, which has no bearing on the context.

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1 hour ago, Canplay said:

For mine, this can only be a direct leak from Glen Bartlett -  or a close association of his.    I can't imagine anyone with the breadth of information and motivation could be anyone on existing Board -   I see this as Glen's revenge for being rolled in April and had tarnished his complete 8 year legacy.   I have read nothing that tells me that Goody isn't the right bloke to steer the Dee's ship.

 

 

 

If that were true and this were his revenge then the guy would have some serious issues. 

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Something which I feel hasn't nessacerilly been addressed in the media reporting of this is that AFL is not necessarily your standard workplace.  Whilst it's a fine line and I wouldn't condone workplace bullying, I think what also needs to be taken into consideration is that competitive contact sports are not your standard workplace and I feel that context is somewhat missing.  I think there is some level of aggressiveness and ultra competitiveness that could at times be perceived as bullying in any other workplace, that would be fairly standard behavior of most sporting organisations.  Perhaps this doctor wasn't a good fit for that culture.  I have no facts here, I'm only speculating, but so are the media, with the limited published facts, incomplete and one sided story they have.

I'd like to know how other clubs and coaches would measure up in this respects.  I dare say there are a number of other recient past and present AFL coaches that I can think of that have an intimating nature about them, that I think could have easily overstepped the line of what would be considered work place bullying in a standard workplace.

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I couldn’t care in the slightest if goody is gambling with players frequently for one key reason.

That is, it’s simply too hypocritical to pass judgement and say he can’t do it, when the AFL earns gazillions from gambling, and you can’t watch or listen to a game without being exposed to mass gambling ads. 

 

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1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

I can categorically tell you that whilst what goes into legal documents should be truthful and founded on a proper basis, that is not always the case.

But it's highly unlikely what the doctor alleged had no truth. Instead, what I am suggesting is that there is a reasonable likelihood that the doctor's version of events is not necessarily the truth. Whether due to exaggeration or a particular recollection that may not be correct.

I'd also add in relation to the settlement with the doctor that, on its own, settling a claim being made against the club for $100k does not mean there was a view within the club, or on legal advice, of any wrongdoing. The cost of continuing to defend the claim, including having a hearing and potentially having the matter being heard publicly and be reported on, are all things which motivate defendants (i.e. in this case the club) to opt for a settlement. The doctor's case may have been weak at law, but the cost of defending it all the way was likely to exceed $100k.

As a very small business employer I the early 2000, I needed to terminate an employee for very valid business reasons - she left what I thought was amicably, then chose to put in an unfair dismissal claim.

I had an experienced IR advisor on board, and he said (to the effect of) "the claim has no basis, but if we got an unlucky bounce with a particular arbiter it could be very costly - settlement for a few thousand whilst distasteful was preferable".

My 'revenge' karma was that when subsequent prospective employers called, I was able to say that whilst she had been a good employee, the unfair dismissal claim, (with non disclosable details), had come as a complete shock.  It was at least couple of years before I stopped getting these calls, suggesting that reemployment was not immediate.

Edited by monoccular
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3 hours ago, Action Jackson said:

If it is Bartlett, which seems very likely, then he should never be allowed to another Dees game as a guest.

The fact he was welcomed into the changerooms after the premiership win, to then go and leak this information is a f'ing disgrace.

He got to enjoy this while the rest of us were stuck in our houses.

The bar was set pretty low on who they invited into the change rooms when these people were allowed in:

image.jpeg.118807e55b838ac63baf9cf25f734b5a.jpeg

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5 hours ago, binman said:

The real news story is who leaked, why and what consequences they should face.

I hope it wasn't Bartlett. But if it wasn't he should say so because everyone assumes it is him.

That is really the only story and there can't be too many suspects. I emailed Bartlett late yesterday arvo and not surprisingly have had no reply.

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