Tom Wills

[dworship 3,342]

15 minutes ago, John Crow Batty said:

That would be Greg Healy. Not the brother that ditched us.

Yep, but it wasn't you I was asking but thanks for your input.

Let's just say I'm cautious of the motivations of someone who hasn't posted before or for a long time under another handle and this is the subject they want to bring up a couple of days out from a GF.

[Webber 10,007]

This is an extraordinary historical finding if true, and one that shouldn’t be hidden or run from, but instead given the perspective it deserves. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Tom Wills was involved in the murderous reprisals for the Cullin-La-Ringo massacre, which, needless to say, was the worst episode of massed indigenous killings in Australia and woefully unknown to the Australian public. Given the lack of attention given to colonising violence however, no surprise there. Tom did come back to find his family murdered (a reprisal itself for unprovoked murders), and a party was then formed to commit more killings. That much is known. It’s a legitimate question as to his involvement, which makes this information discovery incredibly important, valid or otherwise - that’s for historians. 
            None of it however alters the fact of Tom’s sporting legacy, both before and after, the most extraordinary (other than his co-formation of the game of Australian football) being his subsequent coaching of the first Australian cricket team, all indigenous, who toured England, without him (he was left at home due to his alcoholism) and won. Tom Wills undoubtedly had a relationship with indigenous Australians that was wholly unique at the time, including during his childhood in the Western Districts, where he reportedly (by family history)  had firm friendships with the locals. If part of his later history saw him involved in violent or murderous acts, so be it. Sanitising so-called heroic figures is one of the most insidious aspects of national and cultural story-telling. Tom Wills died after stabbing himself in the heart 3 times with a pair of scissors, in what has been attributed to a likely alcoholic psychosis (biographer Greg de Moore’s assessment). He was a tragic, complex, extraordinary individual, and his impact on Australian sporting cultural history should be widely known. It isn’t. What we don’t have to do is ‘celebrate’ him blindly as a figure of exceptional virtue, as if he couldn’t be capable of potentially (if not likely) violent misbehaviours. His life and legacy should be examined as rigorously as possible. 
          Truth and context will defeat the worst aspects of both whitewashing and cancel culture. Tom Wills had a formative impact on Australia as we know it today. That is undeniable. We should seek to know everything about him, good and bad, and be honest and mature about their inevitable co-existence. And frankly, none of this has anything to do with the Melbourne Football Club as it exists today. 
 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Webber
Typo

[Laurie Fowler 6]

56 minutes ago, Webber said:

And frankly, none of this has anything to do with the Melbourne Football Club as it exists today. 

Good post. Suspect the timing has far less to do with Melbourne FC than the game itself, in its most important week of the season.

[dworship 3,342]

1 hour ago, Webber said:

This is an extraordinary historical finding if true, and one that shouldn’t be hidden or run from, but instead given the perspective it deserves. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Tom Wills was involved in the murderous reprisals for the Cullin-La-Ringo massacre, which, needless to say, was the worst episode of massed indigenous killings in Australia and woefully unknown to the Australian public. Given the lack of attention given to colonising violence however, no surprise there. Tom did come back to find his family murdered (a reprisal itself for unprovoked murders), and a party was then formed to commit more killings. That much is known. It’s a legitimate question as to his involvement, which makes this information discovery incredibly important, valid or otherwise - that’s for historians. 
            None of it however alters the fact of Tom’s sporting legacy, both before and after, the most extraordinary (other than his co-formation of the game of Australian football) being his subsequent coaching of the first Australian cricket team, all indigenous, who toured England, without him (he was left at home due to his alcoholism) and won. Tom Wills undoubtedly had a relationship with indigenous Australians that was wholly unique at the time, including during his childhood in the Western Districts, where he reportedly (by family history)  had firm friendships with the locals. If part of his later history saw him involved in violent or murderous acts, so be it. Sanitising so-called heroic figures is one of the most insidious aspects of national and cultural story-telling. Tom Wills died after stabbing himself in the heart 3 times with a pair of scissors, in what has been attributed to a likely alcoholic psychosis (biographer Greg de Moore’s assessment). He was a tragic, complex, extraordinary individual, and his impact on Australian sporting cultural history should be widely known. It isn’t. What we don’t have to do is ‘celebrate’ him blindly as a figure of exceptional virtue, as if he couldn’t be capable of potentially (if not likely) violent misbehaviours. His life and legacy should be examined as rigorously as possible. 
          Truth and context will defeat the worst aspects of both whitewashing and cancel culture. Tom Wills had a formative impact on Australia as we know it today. That is undeniable. We should seek to know everything about him, good and bad, and be honest and mature about their inevitable co-existence. And frankly, none of this has anything to do with the Melbourne Football Club as it exists today. 
 

Wow, I don't mean this in any derogative way but I didn't know you could be that articulate. Absolute respect for everything you said and the way you said it.

I'm still a bit sus on the motivations "sugar"

 

[Webber 10,007]

6 hours ago, dworship said:

I'm still a bit sus on the motivations "sugar"

Jumping at shadows, dworship. @sugar made a legitimate point about the Tom Wills issue, and the media timing, which will always be designed for maximum exposure/controversy. What better moment for them than Grand Final week. It’s got no more to do with MFC than anyone, even if Wills did co-write the originating ‘Rules of The Melbourne Football Club.’ My hope would be, as I wrote, that it leads to a greater awareness of Tom Wills, his life, times and activities (all of them) than has existed til now. 
About time too that Greg Healy, a too easily forgotten former captain and loyal servant to the Dees, got some name recognition on Demonland 😎.

[sugar 46]

7 hours ago, dworship said:

Wow, I don't mean this in any derogative way but I didn't know you could be that articulate. Absolute respect for everything you said and the way you said it.

I'm still a bit sus on the motivations "sugar"

 

Motivations are simple, this article happened to come out this week, hence discussing it this week. The other aspect is I have a lot of respect for and work with Indigenous Australians and will back with everything I have their want for truth telling, no matter how bad that truth is.

As I said in the original post, the timing is crap but now is when the article came out. Had it been next week, next month or next year I would have posted here just the same. The more we discuss these things the more the real truth will come out and be accepted. Accepting that truth is massive in rebuilding relationships with Indigenous Australians.

Edited September 22, 2021 by sugar

[Cranky Franky 1,483]

9 hours ago, Webber said:

This is an extraordinary historical finding if true, and one that shouldn’t be hidden or run from, but instead given the perspective it deserves. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Tom Wills was involved in the murderous reprisals for the Cullin-La-Ringo massacre, which, needless to say, was the worst episode of massed indigenous killings in Australia and woefully unknown to the Australian public. Given the lack of attention given to colonising violence however, no surprise there. Tom did come back to find his family murdered (a reprisal itself for unprovoked murders), and a party was then formed to commit more killings. That much is known. It’s a legitimate question as to his involvement, which makes this information discovery incredibly important, valid or otherwise - that’s for historians. 

 

Well done, balanced & well written something you don't always get on Demonland when anything racial is involved.

[4_Kent_Watts 846]

13 hours ago, John Crow Batty said:

That would be Greg Healy. Not the brother that ditched us.

Never mention Greg Healys brother by name. 

[Dante 2,562]

7 hours ago, Webber said:

Jumping at shadows, dworship. @sugar made a legitimate point about the Tom Wills issue, and the media timing, which will always be designed for maximum exposure/controversy. What better moment for them than Grand Final week. It’s got no more to do with MFC than anyone, even if Wills did co-write the originating ‘Rules of The Melbourne Football Club.’ My hope would be, as I wrote, that it leads to a greater awareness of Tom Wills, his life, times and activities (all of them) than has existed til now. 
About time too that Greg Healy, a too easily forgotten former captain and loyal servant to the Dees, got some name recognition on Demonland 😎.

Legitimate point or otherwise this should be on the general board, not the football board.

Can the mods move it and if any Demon supporters wish to pursue it they can do so there.

[Whispering_Jack 27,959]

The account in the letter referred to in this article merits investigation by historians for the sake of the game which Wills was instrumental in founding, for those who follow it, the many who have participated in the game and will participate in the future and in particular, our indigenous players. Today, I especially say that for my club, which just won a premiership, which Tom Wills had a hand in founding and which has a proud history of indigenous players in its ranks going back to George Simmonds who played for the Melbourne Football Club in the 1920s (according to my research) was the second recorded indigenous player in the VFL all the way to Steven May and Kysaiah Pickett who were members of the team that played on Saturday and Neville Jetta, Toby Bedford and Deakyn Smith who make up our playing squad (I’m proud to say that’s more than 10% of our list!). And also for the sake of all members of our indigenous communities it’s important that the truth comes out soon and is properly acknowledged.

Note: Some 11 years ago, I wrote about Wills in this article on Demonland entitled Indigene - Part Three. The contents were based on my research which included a book on the game’s founders Harrison and Wills. All of my research suggested that Wills was away at the time of the massacre. 

 

[Demonstone 19,084]

Martin Flanagan wrote an outstanding piece in yesterday's "Age" pointing out the plethora of inaccuracies, inconsistencies, errors  and pure fiction contained in the article referenced in the O.P.

If somebody better at this interwebs thing than me could provide a link, that would be great.

[george_on_the_outer 6,962]

8 minutes ago, Demonstone said:

Martin Flanagan wrote an outstanding piece in yesterday's "Age" pointing out the plethora of inaccuracies, inconsistencies, errors  and pure fiction contained in the article referenced in the O.P.

If somebody better at this interwebs thing than me could provide a link, that would be great.

Flanagan really does put a lot of this story in the fictional basket designed for the American market:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/tom-wills-remains-a-major-figure-in-australian-history-20210924-p58uih.html

 

[FritschyBusiness 1,455]

I guess thats the problem with journalism nowadays,
Since 99% of their companies income come from advertising and not selling papers/subscriptions, they rely on putting out stories that are not factually true to get more clickbait headlines to gather more clicks to charge more for advertising to make more money
Clicks from anywhere in the world count. 
It's sad 

[Webber 10,007]

3 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

Flanagan really does put a lot of this story in the fictional basket designed for the American market:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/tom-wills-remains-a-major-figure-in-australian-history-20210924-p58uih.html

 

Brilliant article as always by Flanners. He is the most invested and well-versed on Tom Wills there is. He also has a problem with lazy journalism and lazy history, so this was right in his wheelhouse. 

[Whispering_Jack 27,959]

On 9/27/2021 at 4:51 PM, george_on_the_outer said:

Flanagan really does put a lot of this story in the fictional basket designed for the American market:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/tom-wills-remains-a-major-figure-in-australian-history-20210924-p58uih.html

 

Thanks George and thanks to Martin Flanagan for providing his knowledge and making a strong call on the issue. 

When we’re permitted to go to the G to watch the footy, our crowd sits in the northern stand. The game and the club’s history are there for all to see when we go up the escalator - it would make the trip up unbearable if the anonymous American was to be believed.

[DeeZone 7,701]

Just watching the Tom Wills Doco on Fox it is a very interesting watch he was recognised as Victoria’s greatest sportsman of his time. such a sad ending.😢💙❤️

[Biffen 12,323]

I’ll take Flanagan and WJ over the author of the “ jazzed up” American tabloid piece.

The article was clearly a pulp fiction “frontier “ story designed to sell papers.

There were numerous factual errors and false claims made in the recently found account of Australia.

 

[John Crow Batty 8,250]

A further article on Tom Wills and the cricket team. 
 

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/history-of-australia-s-first-cricket-team-not-set-in-stone-20211001-p58web.html

Edited October 3, 2021 by John Crow Batty

[Hassa Mann 103]

On 10/1/2021 at 4:48 PM, Biffen said:

I’ll take Flanagan and WJ over the author of the “ jazzed up” American tabloid piece.

The article was clearly a pulp fiction “frontier “ story designed to sell papers.

There were numerous factual errors and false claims made in the recently found account of Australia.

 

Their ABC running a story to cancel the Tom Wills legend with shoddy journalism/history is typical of the organisation. In trying to push the social agenda, it ignores accuracy, and engenders bias to promote the theme. And certainly don’t bother consulting Wills experts such as Flanagan before running the “story”

[Demon trucker 1,740]

Fake news no more needed to be said, made up letter by God knows who.

[monoccular 16,042]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:48 PM, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-clubs-seek-advice-after-tom-wills-discovery-20210920-p58t8y.html?fbclid=IwAR10lLIcuUc-UU8gT47BgikYiL_3eVLBszvXuvE4sFNKzZhO3FZFZ0A77pk
 

Interesting details emerging about Wills’ part in a massacre of Aboriginals. This seems completely inconsistent with other things I’ve read about Wills, but it’s fairly damning. How do others view this? I don’t feel like the MFC makes much of a deal about our connection to Wills, and these events took place a few years after he established the MFC. 

Unsubstantiated ABC lead denigration of a fine Australian who actively promoted aboriginal sportsmen, and according to other sources was not even close to the area of the massacre.

It is part of the ABC agenda to make out that Australia (and the USA for that matter) is a fundamentally racist white supremisist  misogynistic  homophobic society. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by monoccular

[Laurie Fowler 6]

22 hours ago, John Crow Batty said:

A further article on Tom Wills and the cricket team. 
 

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/history-of-australia-s-first-cricket-team-not-set-in-stone-20211001-p58web.html

Heh, the movement to cancel Wills has run out of steam and The Age is trying valiantly to keep it alive by impugning him with faint accusations.

It's unclear how the Skipton hotel story is supposed to make Wills "unreliable". The publican declined to put the team up for the night, which is exactly what Wills said.

Pointless journalism.