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POSTGAME: Rd 19 vs Western Bulldogs



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7 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

We have had more shots at goal in every game this year except against Collingwood which we lost 23-25. It is pretty obvious what the major issue is. 

Nahhhh   Goodwin said there isn't a problem aren't you listening????

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So it's been a day (or so) since the loss. Feeling pretty deflated. Not so much that we lost against the (now) #1 team (aside from poor umpiring, they played out of their skins, and with too much room - man we could use a Bont/Macrae/Daniel) but more that I'm not sure where our wins will come from now.

We've already shown that we're susceptible to bottom 6 teams, so the Suns game is a terrifying prospect. They're traveling ok, and gave the Lions a good shake. Our skills are way down, execution obviously really poor. I don't even remember the last game where we didn't start 1.4 or something similar. It's not even the skills and poor goalkicking. The delivery into 50 is a shambles and many of our stars have regressed. Salem, Langdon and and Jackson are shells of their pre-bye selves. Even Trac and Oliver, who have been performing pretty well but still seem to lack that polish that great teams need, especially Trac who too often reverts to millionaire footy. We're missing the killer instinct players, the sort that Bont showed when the Doggies needed it. 

Worse still? It's the knowledge that wins breeds wins, and loses breed losses, and it's so hard to see how that'll turn around in light of the above. I know Goody said he's not worried, but this is the same guy who said who wouldn't re-watch our annihilation in the 2018 prelim. So it's either willful ignorance or he's a total magoo, neither of which is useful.

It's a long post, but what I guess I'm saying is that this is now our biggest test. Not the games are played against top 8 teams. The part where we're now on a real slide. The pretenders tag creeping up behind us, and many in the team in a slump - that dreaded 'here we go again' feeling.

We either follow that path back to nothing or we turn it around. And stamp our foot on our new identity. Upward, beyond, through.

I don't mind if we don't win a flag this year, it was probably an overreach anyway, but I'd love for it not to be a straight sets fizzer (provided as even get that chance), and we at least rediscover our mojo, intensity, selfless approach and confident gameplay - and miss out with heads held high, future intact, bright.

Which way will we go? 

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3 minutes ago, Red But Mostly Blue said:

So it's been a day (or so) since the loss. Feeling pretty deflated. Not so much that we lost against the (now) #1 team (aside from poor umpiring, they played out of their skins, and with too much room - man we could use a Bont/Macrae/Daniel) but more that I'm not sure where our wins will come from now.

We've already shown that we're susceptible to bottom 6 teams, so the Suns game is a terrifying prospect. They're traveling ok, and gave the Lions a good shake. Our skills are way down, execution obviously really poor. I don't even remember the last game where we didn't start 1.4 or something similar. It's not even the skills and poor goalkicking. The delivery into 50 is a shambles and many of our stars have regressed. Salem, Langdon and and Jackson are shells of their pre-bye selves. Even Trac and Oliver, who have been performing pretty well but still seem to lack that polish that great teams need, especially Trac who too often reverts to millionaire footy. We're missing the killer instinct players, the sort that Bont showed when the Doggies needed it. 

Worse still? It's the knowledge that wins breeds wins, and loses breed losses, and it's so hard to see how that'll turn around in light of the above. I know Goody said he's not worried, but this is the same guy who said who wouldn't re-watch our annihilation in the 2018 prelim. So it's either willful ignorance or he's a total magoo, neither of which is useful.

It's a long post, but what I guess I'm saying is that this is now our biggest test. Not the games are played against top 8 teams. The part where we're now on a real slide. The pretenders tag creeping up behind us, and many in the team in a slump - that dreaded 'here we go again' feeling.

We either follow that path back to nothing or we turn it around. And stamp our foot on our new identity. Upward, beyond, through.

I don't mind if we don't win a flag this year, it was probably an overreach anyway, but I'd love for it not to be a straight sets fizzer (provided as even get that chance), and we at least rediscover our mojo, intensity, selfless approach and confident gameplay - and miss out with heads held high, future intact, bright.

Which way will we go? 

I think we'll do ok.  3 out of the last 4 is definitely achievable but even if it isn't to be others still need to pass us so there is a lot to play out.  Ignore the media analysis - it changes nearly by the minute.  Just take it game by game and trust in the method that has us in such a good position this late in the season.  We haven't been beaten by more than 20 points in any game this season and we have had more or at least the same scoring shots in every game bar one (Collingwood).  We are right in this.  This is a different Melbourne team to those we've seen before.  Is there room to improve? Absolutely.  I'm confident we will.

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5 hours ago, kev martin said:

That's right, and with our stop start game we have become boring.

Wow, I see many of our wingers and forwards up in the back-line area.

Yes we have, we started the season being a high scoring team, though still not making the most of opportunities. 

Now we just don't seem to take it on as often as we did.

We are a wrestling team, kick to packs, and lack foot speed and outside run.

If you've only just now noticed Langdon and Brayshaw getting back into defence, you clearly weren't watching hard enough at the start of the year.

Your comment about us scoring more pre-bye than we are now is precisely what I was talking about. You are seeing lower scores and equating that with being "boring" and a change in style, neither of which is accurate because we haven't changed how we play at all, we're just doing it worse.

4 hours ago, kev martin said:

Boring footy isn't necessarily bad footy.

Apparently it stands up in finals.

Free flowing, high scoring is the bench mark for exciting footy. It shows high skill levels and general excitement. We aren't playing that style.

If you believe we are optimising our skills and creating beautiful footy then you are easily pleased by the spectacle we produce.

 

@Rhino Richards

 

Again, go back and watch us play Richmond, the Dogs, Brisbane and Port.

If you find the footy we played those nights "boring", then I'm sorry but I can't help you.

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4 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

No I didn't

But he missed the first 2 sitters, then a horrible shank out on the full...

 

3 hours ago, picket fence said:

Mate he is still finding his feet and place in the team. He will be a very astute pick up for us

FFS picket - set shot goal kicking doesn’t depend on “finding his feet and place in the team” - it was absolutely inexcusable given that his impeccable kicking was one of his great selling points. Not calling for him to be dropped, but he should have a good hard look at himself. May well have cost us the game and top spot. 

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23 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

I think we'll do ok.  3 out of the last 4 is definitely achievable but even if it isn't to be others still need to pass us so there is a lot to play out.  Ignore the media analysis - it changes nearly by the minute.  Just take it game by game and trust in the method that has us in such a good position this late in the season.  We haven't been beaten by more than 20 points in any game this season and we have had more or at least the same scoring shots in every game bar one (Collingwood).  We are right in this.  This is a different Melbourne team to those we've seen before.  Is there room to improve? Absolutely.  I'm confident we will.

Thanks for the level head, mate. Yeah I think this is the best base we've had in a very long time and will go far - we've barely scratched the surface. The crucial bit is continuing to change the culture, which is why the next part is so important. I think we'll work our way through this and come out better. I hope the boys think so too and come out and really send a message next week. It's 'only' the Suns but it would go a long way to restoring some confidence and momentum for the rounds leading up into the finals.

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Haven't read all the posts, so apologies in advance for the following rant:

Why the f&^% was Bontempelli allowed to run free, getting on his left side, with no pressure??

ZERO respect for Caleb Daniel!! The guy is dangerous and rarely wastes a disposal - to let him roam at will was BS

And BBB? Missing set shots from 30, although they're more like 50 after his OCD run up! Omg!

Terrible loss!!!

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3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

If you've only just now noticed Langdon and Brayshaw getting back into defence, you clearly weren't watching hard enough at the start of the year.

Your comment about us scoring more pre-bye than we are now is precisely what I was talking about. You are seeing lower scores and equating that with being "boring" and a change in style, neither of which is accurate because we haven't changed how we play at all, we're just doing it worse.

No, not equating low score with being boring, we are boring.

Fumbly, wrestling, stop start, rarely going with fast ball movement, most of our good play comes from turnovers.

Now that other teams have the same fitness levels as us we are not running away from teams in the last quarters. 

We won alot more quarters early in the year. Nothing has changed! Of course it has. We could turn it on when we wanted to, back then. Now we just aren't dominating for extended periods in the game. Our beautiful plays has been turned into role play, with defensive structures being the number one priority. We used to swarm and run as a pack, hunting and breaking lines, and, having a good balance of inside and outside players. Now they are all at the ball and trying to do it by themselves. Never do we find free space without huge effort, most of the game is about pressure on and from the opposition. We used to be play on at all cost, "red mist' ring a bell. Now we stop and start.

Would love to see us play smarter again. More shimmy and fakes, less straight down the line which makes for easy smothers or for defenders to read. Better use of angles and space. Smart play makes for more excitement.

3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

If you find the footy we played those nights "boring", then I'm sorry but I can't help you.

Didnt ask for help.

Those games we were able to pressure them so that they looked second rate, rushed and broken.

It was amazing how we brought the worst out of those teams you mentioned.

Dominating a team through pressure, doesn't make for beautiful footy. Though those supporting the dominator may think so.

Since I support MFC I found those wins entertaining, we played good footy and never looked  threatened.

Hope we get back to strangulation. 

Though pure footy is more entertaining for non invested spectators. By pure footy, I mean highly skilled games between two teams playing smart, flowing footy. 

Edited by kev martin
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9 hours ago, deegirl said:

Don’t question my understanding of the game. Try reading my comment.
 

When Viney tries to do too much it can hurt us. When he’s in good form, he doesn’t do that.  
 

 

I think people who demand that Viney hits every target don’t understand what his strength is. He can use the ball well enough when he wants. I challenge anyone to shrug off a tackle and then hit a pin point pass. He gets caught to often but, the reward out weighs the risk.

The recent choir on Demonland that has been critical of him, are the first to go silent when he delivers.

Edited by Doug Reemer
Spelling.
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13 hours ago, layzie said:

Highlighted on the podcast this week I did think Bartel made a good comment saying we need to know the right moments to speed up the game. 

If where not going to score with the forwards we have then we probably need more opportunities.

Agree with this. I’ve been wondering the last few games why we fumble so much more than the other teams. I think it’s because we’re trying to play at speed that is beyond our skill level, which is made a lot worse when we’re tired and when wet conditions challenge our skills. In those circumstances we just need to throttle back our speed that is commensurate with our skill base and the conditions. 
 

 

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On 7/24/2021 at 10:01 PM, loges said:

Getting within 4 points after being reemed by the umps

This has been a huge factor to overcome, setting up more individual plays than team plays as it is uncertain in the players' minds when the hard work, effort and decisive winning of the ball will be interrupted - even though the opposition has been unable to turn the tide their way without umpire support. Suddenly, through the whistle, the Demons are in trouble. 

 

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After a couple of days, I'm still not happy with how Bont, McCrae and Daniel were handled.

There is a good chance all 3 of them are All-Australian this year and they were allowed to do as they please. (Not to mention Libba and Naughton, who would both be right in the mix also)

If Libba has been identified as the one that starts all their chains, surely Daniel is next in line. He's not big, he's not overly fast, he's just got a very good football brain and his execution, particularly on a greasy night, was an absolute master class.

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From Peter Ryan's 4 Points in today's Age.

 

GOING NOT GAWN

Melbourne’s Max Gawn remains in form but with Luke Jackson battling and the midfield disconnected from their bearded skipper the area needs a freshen up. Between rounds 1-12 Melbourne were ranked eighth in clearance differential and sixth in the scores from stoppages differential. Since round 13 they are 15th for clearance differential and 13th in the scores from stoppages differential. They can’t ignore the issue.
 

 

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4 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

From Peter Ryan's 4 Points in today's Age.

 

GOING NOT GAWN

Melbourne’s Max Gawn remains in form but with Luke Jackson battling and the midfield disconnected from their bearded skipper the area needs a freshen up. Between rounds 1-12 Melbourne were ranked eighth in clearance differential and sixth in the scores from stoppages differential. Since round 13 they are 15th for clearance differential and 13th in the scores from stoppages differential. They can’t ignore the issue.
 

 

Goodwin believes that there is no problem !Go figure

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34 minutes ago, Kent said:

Goodwin believes that there is no problem !Go figure

There is a difference between what Goodwin thinks (and says internally) and what he says publicly. Or at least I hope so !!

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36 minutes ago, bingers said:

There is a difference between what Goodwin thinks (and says internally) and what he says publicly. Or at least I hope so !!

Is that a fact or speculation

If he doesn't say how it is then in my opinion better to say nothing or at least qualify the statement

I'm in the camp that what he s says is what he means

 

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21 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

And to emphasize your point Binman, just have a look at the Disposal Efficiency of the 4 top ranked players for both sides for the match:

 WB                                              Disposals            Disposal Efficiency %

Macrae                                      38                                71%

Daniel                                         34                               76%

B. Smith                                     26                               65%

Bontempelli                               31                               61%

Demons

Petracca                                     31                               35%

Oliver                                          38                                57%

Gawn                                          18                                38%

ANB                                             25                               45%

WB's 4 top ranked platers had 129 disposals between them, of which 89 (69%) hit a target

Demons 4 top ranked players had 112 disposals between them, of which 43 (38%) hit a target.

Is it any wonder our forward line does not function, and we don't kick goals.

 

3 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

From Peter Ryan's 4 Points in today's Age.

 

GOING NOT GAWN

Melbourne’s Max Gawn remains in form but with Luke Jackson battling and the midfield disconnected from their bearded skipper the area needs a freshen up. Between rounds 1-12 Melbourne were ranked eighth in clearance differential and sixth in the scores from stoppages differential. Since round 13 they are 15th for clearance differential and 13th in the scores from stoppages differential. They can’t ignore the issue.

These two statistics combined with our kicking accuracy and the disgraceful umpiring is a pretty good reason why we lost.

3 out of the 4 have been known for a long time now and are fixable.

They might be being addressed but they're not being fixed.

 

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2 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

 

These two statistics combined with our kicking accuracy and the disgraceful umpiring is a pretty good reason why we lost.

3 out of the 4 have been known for a long time now and are fixable.

They might be being addressed but they're not being fixed.

 

Something that was very intelligent and cool from the bulldogs was their ability to look for the easy 15m (although at times closer to 5m) kick to be able to control and protect the ball. We talk about the return of the red mist for the Dees, it was interesting to see them execute that side of the game compared to us. 

The players have lost their heads in recent weeks, early in the year we were able to calm ourselves down at the right moments to protect the ball and retain possession. Now we seem to be rushing things and going for the immediate get out kick of down the line. Now if Max is waiting there and it’s a dry day/night that’s “ok”, but really we should be looking at options available that hold possession. 

I personally think we’ve been feeling the weight of being on top of the ladder and being “the hunted”. Dropping top spot could be a bit of a hidden positive to wake the players up a bit and reset the way we play. (Trying to find positives in falling back to the back)

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On 7/25/2021 at 12:07 AM, chook fowler said:

Goodwin needs a kick in the rear for letting Daniel run amok. Our half forwards were loose and ineffectual. 

Unusually agree with Jnr Mac comments above, plus Daniel being left free for the match.

But on the positive side consider, the Dogs had a very good night and we got within 4 points in the last, so not that far off it on their VG night and our average night, the following can change:

- Just start kicking a bit straighter (I think BBB is improving in his game involvement and building well, his last two shots are hopefully an indicator of what's to come, would also add in Melksham as he will likely average a goal a week and 1-2 passes that result in goals)

- Demons shouldn't let Daniels run free next time

- Sit tighter on Bont in forward half

- Hopefully with a crowd at the GF or PF, who can boo crap decisions, the umpiring isn't as one sided and you typically get the best umpires

- Demons had 6 player who played pretty well, 4-6 okay and 10 poor.  

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3 hours ago, Pates said:

Something that was very intelligent and cool from the bulldogs was their ability to look for the easy 15m (although at times closer to 5m) kick to be able to control and protect the ball. We talk about the return of the red mist for the Dees, it was interesting to see them execute that side of the game compared to us. 

The key was they did it quickly -which meant we were chasing to man the mark.

When we played them earlier we denied them that clean ball use.

We have also become very stagnant. Not sure what the play on percentages are but to the eye it looks we like we stop and prop rather than the quick give or short kick. And when you stop the quick play players stop running. and then its a slippery slope,

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Some insight into Beveridge's tactics can be gleaned from this:  every-club-s-cbas-and-kick-ins-for-r19

  • Libba attended only 58% of CBA's - the rest of his game time was fwd.  Impact on us is less chance to tag him as his CBA's were unpredictable.
  • Schache looked like he 'shadowed' Jackson (until Keath went off), coming on and off the ground, rucking and resting at the same time.  
  • It looks like Bailey Smith took up Libba's CBA's and they swapped roles.
  • We kept our CBA's static with Harmes, Petracca, Oliver all attending 77% of CBA's.  Viney was the main cover with 62%.

I read somewhere that Hibbo had the job of picking up Bontepelli when he went fwd.  If correct not sure that worked too well.  Couldn't tell if someone or who guarded him at CBA's.  Not sure that anyone picked up Libba when he went fwd.

Without watching the game again, it is hard to tell if we picked up on the above during the game or if our tactics on Libba or Bonte changed.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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