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TEAMS: Rd 19 vs Western Bulldogs



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13 minutes ago, binman said:

Must be a morning for being argumentative. Maybe lock down is getting to me.

Jackson was poor last week. And is yet another ayer who has been down for a few weeks.

Again I reckon extra training loads is likely to be a big factor. Particularly for a young fella in only his second year of afl. And he plays a pretty tough role.

Like Gus, super important to our structure and tactical flexibility in terms of how we utilise Max and create match up problems for opposition coaches.

Luke ain't going out of this team. 

He has a very important role. No question

But he is still young. He is not fully mature yet physically (will be a beast in a few years). Are we expecting too much of the young man to play a demanding role like this for a full season? Would a rest now allow him to recharge and be ready for the rigors of a finals campaign? I’m sure Burgess is very well aware of this of course and is managing him accordingly but I wonder if the VFL wasn’t suspended would we have seen Dogga have one or two games with Casey. I think the Weid could deputise in the role while Dogga recharges

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9 minutes ago, BDA said:

He has a very important role. No question

But he is still young. He is not fully mature yet physically (will be a beast in a few years). Are we expecting too much of the young man to play a demanding role like this for a full season? Would a rest now allow him to recharge and be ready for the rigors of a finals campaign? I’m sure Burgess is very well aware of this of course and is managing him accordingly but I wonder if the VFL wasn’t suspended would we have seen Dogga have one or two games with Casey. I think the Weid could deputise in the role while Dogga recharges

Good points.

As you say, he is really young to be playing as much ruck time as he is. Nick nat is the only ruck that I can think of who was doing those sort of minutes at the same age.

I thought they might have used the bye period to give him, kozzie, rivers and kozzie a chop out and a game or two off.

And as you say they could have used weed to play Jackson's role and would have done a good job I reckon (I like weed in the ruck - pretty good technique and gets him into the game).

I reckon it might be too late now. Surely from now they will want to play their finals team. 

Edited by binman
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55 minutes ago, binman said:

What bollocks. Gus is having his best season since 2018.

Has not missed a game in a team sitting in top of the ladder.

And he has done a fantastic job on the wing. Hugely important to our structure 

Not sure why people think he is not playing the wing atm. He still is. Jordan is supporting him there, but Gus is still playing wing.

He has been a bit flat the last few games, but so has the whole team.

As I suspected we have been doing extra training loads which would impact all players.

In his position has to do a lot of, often unrewarded, running. And unlike say Langdon, Gus is far from a natural athlete. So tge extra loading would have a pretty big impact on his output.

 

well I suppose we will see what happens at the end of the season Bin

I'm not saying Brayshaw is not contributing (Bollocks) but believe he is a better on-baller than Viney and even though he is playing well up to a point as a defensive wing we are IMO wasting his talents

You have a source for the  alleged extra loading' I've not seen it any where?

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1 hour ago, binman said:

Gus is having his best season since 2018.

Yep. Can’t understand his burgeoning ‘whipping boy’ status. 

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3 minutes ago, Webber said:

Yep. Can’t understand his burgeoning ‘whipping boy’ status. 

Not whipping from my perspective Gus is  just not being played in the right position because Viney cant or wont play anywhere else

 

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  • Demonland changed the title to TEAMS: Rd 19 vs Western Bulldogs
11 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Brayshaw back to defensive wing, Jordon back to primarily midfielder. Viney starting defensive half-forward flank, with occasional run in the middle. 

This is what has consistently worked - be pretty disappointed if it doesn’t happen. 

Harmes in the half-fwd flank, midfield rotations - depending if he has a tagging job. 
 

Agree with all that, but Harmes must tag Libba. Let's not get too cute here. Stop it at the source and see if they have another way of winning.

As for Vanders, the idea that he should stay in because he's tough doesn't hold up for mine. We could get some tough bloke off the street and that wouldn't make him a guaranteed starter. I've yet to see a worse handballer at AFL level and his kicking is suspect too. 

I think our system is strong enough now that we don't need a player that is simply tough or sets the tone. Intensity should be a mandatory requirement for all of our players. 

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3 minutes ago, A F said:

Agree with all that, but Harmes must tag Libba. Let's not get too cute here. Stop it at the source and see if they have another way of winning.

As for Vanders, the idea that he should stay in because he's tough doesn't hold up for mine. We could get some tough bloke off the street and that wouldn't make him a guaranteed starter. I've yet to see a worse handballer at AFL level and his kicking is suspect too. 

I think our system is strong enough now that we don't need a player that is simply tough or sets the tone. Intensity should be a mandatory requirement for all of our players. 

Haha Harmes tag Libba when it worked first time round? Surely you jest...his tagging days are done with Viney is in the side. Hope I'm wrong tho!

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Just now, A F said:

Agree with all that, but Harmes must tag Libba. Let's not get too cute here. Stop it at the source and see if they have another way of winning.

As for Vanders, the idea that he should stay in because he's tough doesn't hold up for mine. We could get some tough bloke off the street and that wouldn't make him a guaranteed starter. I've yet to see a worse handballer at AFL level and his kicking is suspect too. 

I think our system is strong enough now that we don't need a player that is simply tough or sets the tone. Intensity should be a mandatory requirement for all of our players. 

Agree, I don't see the argument for this necessary toughness, like we need to bully our way to a win. Nope. Our structure, good discipline and selfless play has gotten us to where we are right now. I'd rather a well thought out kick into the 50 than some guy who is odds on to get pinged with the ball.

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Some bulldogs fans think Schache will play in defence.  We are taller and more experienced this time with Brown instead of Weideman so the idea makes sense but I doubt that Schache is a good choice. 

Given he has played only one or two games this year it is hard to see him influencing things in defence or as a fwd.  In defence I would think our fwds could run off him and leave him exposed.  As a fwd and maybe a negating player It would be low risk for Lever to play off him.

This may sound harsh I don't think he has the nous nor the motivation to stick to a role. 

Even so, Beveridge clearly has a plan, be it a late change or rolling the dice some more.

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2 hours ago, Kent said:

well I suppose we will see what happens at the end of the season Bin

I'm not saying Brayshaw is not contributing (Bollocks) but believe he is a better on-baller than Viney and even though he is playing well up to a point as a defensive wing we are IMO wasting his talents

You have a source for the  alleged extra loading' I've not seen it any where?

My bollocks comment related to your comment that Gus has had his 'career ruined'

Which IS bollocks.

In fact you could argue that playing him on the wing had been a major boost to his career. 

Why?

Because if he wasn't able to adapt to the role he likely would have been traded. And if he had been traded, it may well have been to a mid table club like freo, or cellar dweller club like the roos or suns. So no finals.

Why traded? And why to a mid table club?

Because whilst he famously came third in the Brownlow he was a defensive liability. Did not run both ways. And no top club wants an inside mid who only runs forward. That sort of player is history.

Viney, on the other hand is a fantastic defensive mid. Which is why, much to the confusion of some fans, he polls so highly in the bluey every year.

On the wing Gus has turned his career around. His two way running, defensive work and selflessness is now fantastic. He will have earned heaps of respect in out club- and at others.

And I reckon he will do well in the bluey this year.

 

Edited by binman
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1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Agreed.

1 kick/1 mark games like last week aren't going to cut it at this level. Performances like that are what cost Weid's spot in the side.

Needs to increase his output over the next few weeks or we risk carrying a player into the finals.

Yeah don't know how he's getting a free run. I like his work around the ground but even that has limited the past few weeks. But a McDonald or Weideman hold up well enough in the ruck. Up forward Jackson has zero influence, even to the point where we are almost playing a man down.

Cannot afford to carry passengers over the next few weeks being such a crucial period for us.

I'd rather give him a spell for a week or two and freshen him up for finals.

Edited by dazzledavey36
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The Dogs were always going to try something different this week.

This is a dress rehearsal for finals. They lost against us once, it would be madness to try the exact same thing again in the H&A season and hope for a different result when we beat them quite comprehensively last time (if the loss was by under a goal you just back the same system and see if you can gain that extra inch).

I think it's fair to say that the Dogs realised they lost this game because of our defensive set up. They are thinking they can stretch us and I assume they will have one of their talls play almost a tagging role on Lever, to try and draw him out of the contest. 

It may work, and if it does, it gives us plenty to think about ahead of finals, where we are likely to play Geelong who have a very potent forwardline. 

I hope the boys are gutted after last week. It was a horrible performance and a big missed opportunity. If we want to stay in the top 4 and indeed push for top 2 to ensure home finals (although Covid will likely make that irrelevant), these are the games we need to win. I am not confident we can do it twice, but let's see. 

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Keeping our defence occupied with talls is a smart way for Bevo to go. This along with pinpointing passes where they can is difficult to combat if we don't run and put pressure on the ball carrier.

If May Lever and Petty can't intercept the ball cleanly our game plan struggles

The Hawks did it, Brisbane did it for a half

Lets see if Simon can earn his money this week.

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13 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Up forward Jackson has zero influence, even to the point where we are almost playing a man down.

Thing is though - Is Jackson even spending that much time forward? He seems to be playing more midfield, maybe a little wing, drifting forward only very occasionally.

For reference, here's his last 3 heat maps:

qU3o02G.png

ErC4BQR.png

eJH1XU3.png

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Bringing Harmes in for AVB same same doesn't make the side any better, a hard running defensive player with poor kicking and decision making.  Would have loved to see Melksham, just someone that is Footy smart and can kick the football.

On Jackson, I think we are being sucked in on by his 5-10mins a qtr in the Ruck, we can cover this with a Weid or Tmac or Gawn staying out of the forward line and rucking for longer with a short spell each qtr on the bench.

I rate Brayshaw as one of our better clearance players, he actually reads the ruck contest well, to have him on the wing is a waste.  I still think our best stoppage set up is Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Thing is though - Is Jackson even spending that much time forward? He seems to be playing more midfield, maybe a little wing, drifting forward only very occasionally.

For reference, here's his last 3 heat maps:

qU3o02G.png

ErC4BQR.png

eJH1XU3.png

Interestingly I thought the GWS game he was playing too high up as well.

Looking at that heat map it is obvious he's playing a much higher role, but hes numbers the past few weeks ain't great. 

I'm sure Burgess is all over it, but he's looked very tired the last couple of weeks. I would almost even put Rivers in the same boat as well. In my honest opinion their output has dropped off.

As much as Melksham has frustrated me this year I would have brought him in for Jackson. Or if they wanted the tall still, then Weideman. 

Edited by dazzledavey36
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2 hours ago, binman said:

Yes he had his fair share of poor disposals, which unfortunately is part of his game, but his pressure was fantastic.

And in a game where our pressure was down, and the hawks out tackled us, Jack had 11 of the team's  70 tackles , by far our most and I think topped the pressure acts.

Jack got 2 coaches votes last week. So, it appears one or both coaches rated his game pretty highly 

If Jack hits one target out of all his i50 entries and we win vs Hawthorn 

I love his pressure, don't get me wrong, but pressure can't be your only trick if you want to be in the starting 22 for a team competing for flag. Accumulating 30+ disposals means little to me if none of the possessions are damaging, or conversely, damaging to us. 

I'm not a Jack hater, I would just like to see him improve in other areas of the game. It's not 2015 anymore, all players need to be more well-rounded if we are to be a chance this September. 

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1 hour ago, binman said:

Must be a morning for being argumentative. Maybe lock down is getting to me.

Jackson was poor last week. And is yet another ayer who has been down for a few weeks.

Again I reckon extra training loads is likely to be a big factor. Particularly for a young fella in only his second year of afl. And he plays a pretty tough role.

Like Gus, super important to our structure and tactical flexibility in terms of how we utilise Max and create match up problems for opposition coaches.

Luke ain't going out of this team. 


what is your view on the timing of these extra training loads? 

ie loads done, and now ease back trying to peak for this last month + finals? 

or more weeks of higher loads? 

 

our ladder position, our fitness boss’ history, and our fixture all lead to the conclusion that the past month or so would have been a pretty ideal time to increase the loads (and I am sure they accept that you likely have to sacrifice a loss or two for the benefit of peaking at finals time) 

 

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6 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Interestingly I thought the GWS game he was playing too high up as well.

Looking at that heat map it is obvious he's playing a much higher role, but hes numbers the past few weeks ain't great. 

I'm sure Burgess is all over it, but he's looked very tired the last couple of weeks. I would almost even put Rivers in the same boat as well. In my honest opinion their output has dropped off.

As much as Melksham has frustrated me this year I would have brought him in for Jackson. Or if they wanted the tall still, then Weideman. 

Yeah definitely agree Jackson and Rivers have dropped off a little bit, probably understandable given all the context around their age, amount of preseasons, COVID etc etc. I'm the same as you in that I would have liked to have seen Melksham in this week, seemed an obvious choice given our inside 50 delivery lately.

The main thing I've found strange is the role changes going on with guys that were performing well in a top of the ladder team. Gus was finally doing really well on the wing and they change his role, not seeing Pickett in centre bounces, Viney as a pure mid as opposed to his mid/forward role that worked so well at the start of the year... Just hope we're not getting too cute.

Edited by Lord Nev
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7 minutes ago, Smokey said:

If Jack hits one target out of all his i50 entries and we win vs Hawthorn 

I love his pressure, don't get me wrong, but pressure can't be your only trick if you want to be in the starting 22 for a team competing for flag. Accumulating 30+ disposals means little to me if none of the possessions are damaging, or conversely, damaging to us. 

I'm not a Jack hater, I would just like to see him improve in other areas of the game. It's not 2015 anymore, all players need to be more well-rounded if we are to be a chance this September. 

Last year, and even at the start of this year, it was really noticeable how much he was thinking about his delivery forward. He was looking for players rather than bombing, going short to the pocket or just inside 50, even looking sideways instead of just straight ahead, it seemed like he had really put work into that part of his game.

Fast forward to him coming back in this year and it seems like his habits have gone back to the ones he had with this same inside mid role he formerly had. For mine, I think when he plays mid/forward he has more time to focus before delivering and that means he delivers better because he's not just going off his instincts which say 'kick it, kick it!'. Now that he's playing in the middle again those instincts control how he plays.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Yeah definitely agree Jackson and Rivers have dropped off a little bit, probably understandable given all the context around their age, amount of preseasons, COVID etc etc. I'm the same as you in that I would have liked to have seen Melksham in this week, seemed an obvious choice given our inside 50 delivery lately.

The main thing I've found strange is the role changes going on with guys that were performing well in a top of the ladder team. Gus was finally doing really well on the wing and they change his role, not seeing Pickett in centre bounces, Viney as a pure mid as opposed to his mid/forward role that worked so well at the start of the year... Just hope we're not getting too cute.

Everything you have noted in the second paragraph, has me just as confused as you are. What's even more annoying was that it's not like teams were putting work into them and limiting their output.

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1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Keeping our defence occupied with talls is a smart way for Bevo to go. This along with pinpointing passes where they can is difficult to combat if we don't run and put pressure on the ball carrier.

If May Lever and Petty can't intercept the ball cleanly our game plan struggles

The Hawks did it, Brisbane did it for a half

Lets see if Simon can earn his money this week.

 

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

The Dogs were always going to try something different this week.

This is a dress rehearsal for finals. They lost against us once, it would be madness to try the exact same thing again in the H&A season and hope for a different result when we beat them quite comprehensively last time (if the loss was by under a goal you just back the same system and see if you can gain that extra inch).

I think it's fair to say that the Dogs realised they lost this game because of our defensive set up. They are thinking they can stretch us and I assume they will have one of their talls play almost a tagging role on Lever, to try and draw him out of the contest. 

It may work, and if it does, it gives us plenty to think about ahead of finals, where we are likely to play Geelong who have a very potent forwardline. 

Agree. If Lever, May and Petty are not controlling the air, we are pretty stuck for offense. They allow Salem, Rivers, Hibbo and Hunt to get moving.

Also, this is exactly why Ben Brown makes us a better side, for those on the fence. Things opposition teams do to us can also be flipped and implemented. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Thing is though - Is Jackson even spending that much time forward? He seems to be playing more midfield, maybe a little wing, drifting forward only very occasionally.

For reference, here's his last 3 heat maps:

qU3o02G.png

ErC4BQR.png

eJH1XU3.png

Perhaps your supposition is correct that LJ is playing behind the ball. But the above ‘heat maps’ are where he gets the ball, not where he runs to, so he just may be not getting the pill.

On a larger note, Jackson is a point of difference and a future gun - we have to keep him long term to replace Gawn.

But… if he isn’t doing what he needs to do then Weideman is an excellent replacement. He is a forward who rucks and is comfortable up the ground. His ruck work is also better than average.

IMO LJ would have to have a pretty down few games to get to that point.

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