CHANGES: Rd 12 vs Brisbane

[Sydney_Demon 1,175]

21 hours ago, Greendale said:

Out: Weid, Langdon (if injured)
In: B.Brown, Baker

In some ways I'd like to keep Weid in to build his confidence, but at the same time it's important to drive standards, and Brown deserves a chance to build confidence in the 1s as well. Looking forward, Viney comes into this team but I have no idea at who's expense.

Madness. BB did nothing for Casey last week (4 disposals, no goals) and the VFL was called off in Melbourne this weekend. Weideman kicked 2 goals and missed a number of marks through double-grabbing, so he's not far off. Brown was left in the 1s for a few weeks to build confidence, but this is a 2-way process. You do actually need to do something to deserve a promotion. You think BB is suddenly going to star against Brisbane when he couldn't get a kick against Sydney's reserves? Mitch Brown deserves a promotion before Ben Brown (and I'm not recommending that either!)   

[Sydney_Demon 1,175]

21 hours ago, Stevienic23 said:

Richo just said on channel 7 that Langdon went off with concussion. Would have been better off playing with 17 for the last minute. 

You're not serious! If he was concussed according to club doctors you don't try and game the system. There's a reason for the 12-day rule. Player health comes first.      

[Sydney_Demon 1,175]

21 hours ago, Males said:

Do we give Rosman a run on the wing? 

No. I think Rosman will be a player and he's obviously an athlete but he should be given time. As far as untried players go Bowie's next in line.  

[Males 574]

2 minutes ago, Sydney_Demon said:

No. I think Rosman will be a player and he's obviously an athlete but he should be given time. As far as untried players go Bowie's next in line.  

I was more looking at like for like, Rosman and Baker play the wing for Casey I believe and I’m not entirely sold on Baker yet. Threw Rosman out there mainly to see what the Casey watches thought? By reports, he has the tank, speed and size to handle it, might be a bit of an ask against the Lions? ? 

[Sydney_Demon 1,175]

17 hours ago, Xpat said:

Fantastic win. 
I think that Weideman did not do enough to justify keeping BB out. ( unless there is an off-field issue) We are in a position to win the GF and we should not chose development of a player who has not produced that much over a proven goal kicker.

Other change: send a smaller percentage of inside 50 kicks into the pocket.  Wasn’t so bad this week but in generally we kick to the pocket, where it is much more difficult to kick goals. We should consider the chance of scoring from the entry in addition to the chance of getting the mark.

We're 10-1 currently and should not be in the business of making unnecessary changes and gifting players games. I understand people's concerns about Weideman but BB had 4 possessions, no goals against the Swans Reserves and obviously didn't play this weekend so how can anyone justify bringing him in? Weideman was part of a team that beat the former top team by 5 goals. We need to make one change this week and that's all we should be doing. 

[leave it to deever 15,128]

2 hours ago, binman said:

maybe the third?) tmac flat out sprinted for 200 metres to apply some pressure to a dogs plsyer running free through the cent

I certainly dont know what Tmac has done but he could market it and make millions.

Last year he could barely move. I saw him running last night and he was super fast. Yes he was sprinting and moving at great speed for a bloke his size especially in a late stage of the game.

Its a great turn around. Credit to him and the fitness and or medical staff.

An incredible transformation.

As much as we talk about bb, sam, May, Max and Oliver....I really believe Tom is the key to us winning a flag.

Sounds like a big call but he is our best forward easily....more so than Fritta. When he is on which has been most games this year, he is very dangerous. His marking around the ground in several games has been prolific.. hes deadly accurate on goal....he tackles hard and as mentioned his running is awesome. 

 

[defuture15 836]

I still think that weid and TMAC are fighting for the same position. TMAC plays it better.

If Weid is to stay in the side he needs to do the TMAC role more as TMAC played as the FF last night. 

There appears to be a disconnect between the tall forwards and Max.

Weid kicked his goals when Fritta was up the field.

I would have played BB under the roof but TMAC is playing the FF role best ATM

[Lord Nev 13,511]

3 hours ago, binman said:

Agree with the first paragraph. Not the second.

Brown was the incumbent. Both were average against the blues, but if anything Brown was better. So in my view deserved to retain his spot.

Obviously the selectors don't agree, so who am I to say. 

I agree in a general sense with your comments about not needing every forward to be a pressure freak. And that is not what I expect of weed.

But for mine he simply doesn't play with enough intensity and spends too much time at half pace

But his benchmark should be tmac. 

Late in a quarter (can't recall which  maybe the third?) tmac flat out sprinted for 200 metres to apply some pressure to a dogs plsyer running free through the centre square. Didn't quite get there but put enough pressure on for the kick inside 50 to be shanked. And we got an intercept mark.

Even it hadn't caused a turnover the effort was inspiring. They will show that vision to the team.

To be fair to weed they will also show his great run down tackle late in the second. 

But they will also show weed in his review of his half arsed effort near the start of tbe last 'chasing" durea at hb.

Look at the vision at about 18:30. Jogged, where if he had been intense and really focused he would have been able to lay a tackle - or at least been able to disrupt the kick. 

He lucked out because the kick inside 50 was poor and didn't vmcost tbe goal it should have. A goal that might have given them a sniff.

Simply not good enough. And strange from a player fighting for his spot in the team.

Agree to disagree then mate.

Weid averages more tackles and pressure acts than Brown this year. He's not TMac as far as pressure and running goes, not many are this year, but he's closer to it than Brown currently and that's the competition.

As for the Blues game:

Weid - 13 disposals, 5 marks (2 contested), 1 behind, 1 tackle, 1 goal assist

Brown - 11 disposals, 3 marks (1 contested), 1 behind, 0 tackles, 0 goal assists

Pretty clearly Weid edged Brown in that game, tho neither were very good.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Lord Nev

[binman 37,720]

Pretty clearly edged him? 

Based on those stats?

One, those stats are basically the same.

Two, as you know stats are just stats. They only tell part of the story. 

Watching the game I thought Brown had more impact. In large part because he drew more defenders to him, creating more opportunities for the smalls.

But as you say, let's agree to disagree. And the coaches agree with you so you have a good case.

[Mel Bourne 3,593]

3 hours ago, binman said:

 

To be fair to weed they will also show his great run down tackle late in the second. 

But they will also show weed in his review of his half arsed effort near the start of tbe last 'chasing" durea at hb.

Look at the vision at about 18:30. Jogged, where if he had been intense and really focused he would have been able to lay a tackle - or at least been able to disrupt the kick. 

 

That was the precise moment my positive vibes for Weid took a major dip.

[dpositive 1,547]

I saw Brown and Weid in Richmond reserves match aand they combined well.

Weid plays the deep forward 

Brown and Tmac are competing for the spot  that moves around, creates space, contests and takes two defenders.

TMac was so mobile last week and almost every game this year that he was taking the ball on the wing and even in half back.

How about we put him on the wing to do that Tomlinson  link role and have Bbtake the TMac key CHF role rotating with Weid and LJ.

Dont know what I'd do when Lingers returns.

[Mel Bourne 3,593]

1 hour ago, leave it to deever said:

I certainly dont know what Tmac has done but he could market it and make millions.

Last year he could barely move. I saw him running last night and he was super fast. Yes he was sprinting and moving at great speed for a bloke his size especially in a late stage of the game.

Its a great turn around. Credit to him and the fitness and or medical staff.

An incredible transformation.

As much as we talk about bb, sam, May, Max and Oliver....I really believe Tom is the key to us winning a flag.

Sounds like a big call but he is our best forward easily....more so than Fritta. When he is on which has been most games this year, he is very dangerous. His marking around the ground in several games has been prolific.. hes deadly accurate on goal....he tackles hard and as mentioned his running is awesome. 

 

He's been doing a lot of personal training with his own agility coach, off the clock.

[Tarax Club 2,856]

3 hours ago, Yung Blood said:

On Weed.

I understand there are areas of his game that need improvement...

The two goals were nice...dropped three or four where he really should have marked them...Jonathan Brown stated post game a performance he won't be dropped for.

(Ben) Brown will keep pressure on his position...the belief that he will magically become the dominant forward he was 2 years ago. I'm not so sure.

Browns inability to separate off his man and his slowness when the ball hits the ground have been a real worry...

Weid is more agile and there's greater flexibility in his role.

We shall see.

YB overall a well reasoned and constructive post.

Listened to the ABC Grandstand call of the game last night, not enough bandwidth to go around here to watch the game live on Kayo. Viewed replay early AM.

ABC actually delivered on its charter, providing an independent, impartial call. Compared to Jamo and the team of hillbillies in Adelaide the previous week. 

Cameron Ling and Mick Malthouse on special comments. With Kelly Underwood one of the callers. To give credit where credit is due, a real return to old school radio ? days.

Ling on Ch 7 comes across as stating the bleeding obvious and definitely has a head for radio. But was actually much more articulate and engaging unseen. Mick Malthouse not universally loved here on DL, provided a most insightful and interesting analysis of the contest.
 

Surprisingly very fulsome in his praise for Melbourne’s performance. He was talking about the Demon forward set up as the game wound down. As having ‘multiple channels’ and described the ability of our talls to lead at slightly different angles. He said that was very difficult to defend given the quality of delivery by foot into the 50 metre arc.

He could not see a place in our current forward set up for Ben Brown. As he required more space to lead into and played more as a single focal point full forward.
 
Tom McDonald’s re-emergence in the big show, has happily given the selection committee quite a conundrum. Ben Brown is very much Sideshow Bob.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Tarax Club
Brevity is the soul of ...

[picket fence 15,037]

2 hours ago, Males said:

I was more looking at like for like, Rosman and Baker play the wing for Casey I believe and I’m not entirely sold on Baker yet. Threw Rosman out there mainly to see what the Casey watches thought? By reports, he has the tank, speed and size to handle it, might be a bit of an ask against the Lions? ? 

Not yet, and im a fan, of Rosman, would rather Bowey at this stage!

Edited May 29, 2021 by picket fence

[titan_uranus 22,209]

10 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

6 disposals is worth mentioning when it's more than Brown managed to get at VFL level.

Also, Weid averages 2 tackles a game, Brown averages 0.67.

Weid averages 7 pressure acts a game, Brown averages 5.3.

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Agree to disagree then mate.

Weid averages more tackles and pressure acts than Brown this year. He's not TMac as far as pressure and running goes, not many are this year, but he's closer to it than Brown currently and that's the competition.

As for the Blues game:

Weid - 13 disposals, 5 marks (2 contested), 1 behind, 1 tackle, 1 goal assist

Brown - 11 disposals, 3 marks (1 contested), 1 behind, 0 tackles, 0 goal assists

Pretty clearly Weid edged Brown in that game, tho neither were very good.

100% Weid holds his spot over Brown this week.

But Weid was for most of last night poor and in their three AFL games so far this year I've seen a lot more from Brown than I have from Weid. I'm in the camp, with @binman, of whose who think Weid should have been dropped after the Carlton game rather than Brown, and I don't think Weid has done much to hold his spot. He will hold it, but that's because Brown had a shocker at Casey and doesn't get a chance to do any better this week.

On the second of the above posts, those stats are marginal and as last night's game showed us, they don't always tell the entire picture (the Dogs cleaning up many stats but on the park being much worse than us). From what I saw of the Carlton game (which was most but not all of it) there was very little between Brown and Weideman.

On the former, I had a look into those stats earlier this week. What I found interesting was that Weid's stats shade Brown's in many categories, but not when it comes to inside 50. So, for example, Weid's averaging 4.3 marks per game to Brown's 3.3, but Brown averages 2.3 marks inside 50 to Weid's 1.7

Similarly, Weid averages 2 tackles to Brown's 0.7, but Brown averages 0.7 tackles inside 50 to Weid's 0.3 (i.e. that means in three games Brown's laid two tackles inside 50 whilst Weideman's laid just one).

And on pressure acts, Weid averages 7 to Brown's 5.3, but forward half pressure acts Brown averages 4.3 to Weid's 4.

Makes me think about whether Weid is being asked to play a different role to Brown, roaming up the ground more, or whether Weid gets higher up the ground to get more involved (possibly through struggling inside 50)?

[DeeSpencer 23,051]

10 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

100% Weid holds his spot over Brown this week.

But Weid was for most of last night poor and in their three AFL games so far this year I've seen a lot more from Brown than I have from Weid. I'm in the camp, with @binman, of whose who think Weid should have been dropped after the Carlton game rather than Brown, and I don't think Weid has done much to hold his spot. He will hold it, but that's because Brown had a shocker at Casey and doesn't get a chance to do any better this week.

On the second of the above posts, those stats are marginal and as last night's game showed us, they don't always tell the entire picture (the Dogs cleaning up many stats but on the park being much worse than us). From what I saw of the Carlton game (which was most but not all of it) there was very little between Brown and Weideman.

On the former, I had a look into those stats earlier this week. What I found interesting was that Weid's stats shade Brown's in many categories, but not when it comes to inside 50. So, for example, Weid's averaging 4.3 marks per game to Brown's 3.3, but Brown averages 2.3 marks inside 50 to Weid's 1.7

Similarly, Weid averages 2 tackles to Brown's 0.7, but Brown averages 0.7 tackles inside 50 to Weid's 0.3 (i.e. that means in three games Brown's laid two tackles inside 50 whilst Weideman's laid just one).

And on pressure acts, Weid averages 7 to Brown's 5.3, but forward half pressure acts Brown averages 4.3 to Weid's 4.

Makes me think about whether Weid is being asked to play a different role to Brown, roaming up the ground more, or whether Weid gets higher up the ground to get more involved (possibly through struggling inside 50)?

Weid's rucked. Brown hasn't. That's a big factor for a lot of those stats.

One thing to consider is that Weid fits better as the 3rd option out of the way. With Fritsch at full forward.

Brown demands the full forward spot. Fritsch then becomes the 3rd banana most likely. That worked for him v North but in other games he got lost in between.

My overall opinion is if Tommy McDonald can crash packs slightly better than he has been. If Fritsch nails his set shots. And if LJ can just hold a couple more marks then we're better off without either of the big fellas.

The biggest worry with that situation is it puts a huge strain on all of those guys but particularly LJ and Gawn. So maybe you keep trying the big boys whilst we're in strong ladder position.

The Hawks used to play Schoenmakers all the time until finals. Or the Tigers would play Chol a fair bit last year. Sometimes you just play an extra tall to get through the season and then when the whips are cracking go small and hungry.

[Demon Dynasty 15,160]

IMHO there is no like for like replacement for Lingers.  Of course he is elite at what he does so no surprise here.

The closest we might have at present that can fill the hole for a week?  Probably Baker.  He was in the best for Casey's last match against the Swans apparently so may be on the cusp for the call up vs other options.

[Pates 9,536]

I would consider Mitch Brown for Weid, just to throw a different mix in for the forward line. I won’t mind if Weid gets another go but he really has to start showing something. 

I think Baker will come it for Langdon, similar to how Petty got his chance through injury, Oscar can get his from Langdon’s concussion. 

[58er 5,568]

6 hours ago, dpositive said:

I saw Brown and Weid in Richmond reserves match aand they combined well.

Weid plays the deep forward 

Brown and Tmac are competing for the spot  that moves around, creates space, contests and takes two defenders.

TMac was so mobile last week and almost every game this year that he was taking the ball on the wing and even in half back.

How about we put him on the wing to do that Tomlinson  link role and have Bbtake the TMac key CHF role rotating with Weid and LJ.

Dont know what I'd do when Lingers returns.

No no no 

That's  almost robbing 2,Peters to pay ONE Paul.

Stop  gap ie Baker for Lingers or msybe  ANB or bring in Bowey ( very big call) 

OR in lLockhart for defence and either Rivers  or Salem to wing. ( not keen to disturb defence really )  but Lions are quick around the ground so need pace on the wing.  

 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

9 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

100% Weid holds his spot over Brown this week.

But Weid was for most of last night poor and in their three AFL games so far this year I've seen a lot more from Brown than I have from Weid. I'm in the camp, with @binman, of whose who think Weid should have been dropped after the Carlton game rather than Brown, and I don't think Weid has done much to hold his spot. He will hold it, but that's because Brown had a shocker at Casey and doesn't get a chance to do any better this week.

On the second of the above posts, those stats are marginal and as last night's game showed us, they don't always tell the entire picture (the Dogs cleaning up many stats but on the park being much worse than us). From what I saw of the Carlton game (which was most but not all of it) there was very little between Brown and Weideman.

On the former, I had a look into those stats earlier this week. What I found interesting was that Weid's stats shade Brown's in many categories, but not when it comes to inside 50. So, for example, Weid's averaging 4.3 marks per game to Brown's 3.3, but Brown averages 2.3 marks inside 50 to Weid's 1.7

Similarly, Weid averages 2 tackles to Brown's 0.7, but Brown averages 0.7 tackles inside 50 to Weid's 0.3 (i.e. that means in three games Brown's laid two tackles inside 50 whilst Weideman's laid just one).

And on pressure acts, Weid averages 7 to Brown's 5.3, but forward half pressure acts Brown averages 4.3 to Weid's 4.

Makes me think about whether Weid is being asked to play a different role to Brown, roaming up the ground more, or whether Weid gets higher up the ground to get more involved (possibly through struggling inside 50)?

Or that Weid is more mobile and has a better tank than Brown? Given his Casey performance you have to wonder if he's still battling to be back to his peak fitness.

As DeeSpencer also mentioned, on the evidence so far it seems Weid and TMac get in each others way far less than Brown and TMac have. That could also be due to Weid's ability to spread more.

Highlighting those inside 50 stats just tells me Weid is covering more ground than Brown.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,131]

14 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Jordan is looking good for many things - developing fine. The vacant winger might well open him up with a new array of game tricks and tributes. He'd surely be keen for that! He can run, kick, pass, shepherd, screen and anticipates well. Could be the man for the job in Langdon's absence.

Except he plays 70% game time only and that’s not on a wing which requires a larger repeat sprint engine than the centre. Has the tools but not the endurance I suggest in saying that no one does so I suggest Baker in and Jordon spends some time there as well. 

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,850]

23 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Rubbish.

Weid last night - 6 disposals, 5 marks, 1 tackle, 2.1 goals

Brown (at VFL level) - 4 disposals, 0 marks, 2 tackles, 0 shots at goal

We've waited so long to build a genuinely competitive culture and so many want to throw it out the window at first chance.

 

Was it fair on Brown being dropped in the first place based on this new competitive culture? Brown’s marks and goals against Sydney were more telling than Weid’s two goals in the third against the dogs. After going unsighted in the last qtr against the Crows you would of thought Weid would come out firing, only to deliver nothing for a half of footy where essentially the win was set up. Granted Brown did nothing in the VFL but I don’t think Weid should keep his spot on the back of a great team win given his input and what happened to Brown. 
Rounds 12 - 19 the more difficult matches are Lions next week and Port in Adelaide in Rd 17, by rd 20 we need to have one of the two locked in going into games Rd 20 v Dogs home, Rd 21 v Eagles away, Rd 23 Cats away then the finals.

[Demon17 4,519]

11 hours ago, defuture15 said:

I still think that weid and TMAC are fighting for the same position. TMAC plays it better.

If Weid is to stay in the side he needs to do the TMAC role more as TMAC played as the FF last night. 

There appears to be a disconnect between the tall forwards and Max.

Weid kicked his goals when Fritta was up the field.

I would have played BB under the roof but TMAC is playing the FF role best ATM

I think your'e right , but its currently and I suspect for the rest of the year a 'no contest',  Tmac every time.

Weid's future up for grabs, just stop flying for marks against Tmac and Fritsch.

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,850]

So many posts talking about Weid getting to contests and creating opportunities, and it’s only a matter of time until he starts clunking them. Weid has been in the system for a while now. Regardless of who plays they need to be taking those marks more often than not, we’re a genuine contender this year, no passengers full stop. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Bombay Airconditioning

[Lord Nev 13,511]

25 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Was it fair on Brown being dropped in the first place based on this new competitive culture? Brown’s marks and goals against Sydney were more telling than Weid’s two goals in the third against the dogs. After going unsighted in the last qtr against the Crows you would of thought Weid would come out firing, only to deliver nothing for a half of footy where essentially the win was set up. Granted Brown did nothing in the VFL but I don’t think Weid should keep his spot on the back of a great team win given his input and what happened to Brown. 
Rounds 12 - 19 the more difficult matches are Lions next week and Port in Adelaide in Rd 17, by rd 20 we need to have one of the two locked in going into games Rd 20 v Dogs home, Rd 21 v Eagles away, Rd 23 Cats away then the finals.

The Carlton game was borderline, but I felt Weid just edged Brown in that one, particularly given how much Brown and TMac were getting in each others ways. Then Weid had a poor one against the Crows, to be fair though none of our marking forwards did well in that game given the delivery - TMac and Fritsch both down as well, and all BB had to do was kick a couple for Casey to get back in. Unfortunately he had an absolute stinker and didn't earn a call up.

That's how it works now. You have to earn a shot no matter who you are or how well you played a few years ago. Brown is unlucky big time there's no game this week, but he only has himself to blame after his showing for Casey last week.