COVID & AFL 2021

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,095]

I reckon we’ll get crowds back in VIC by round 22, assuming lockdown is lifted on schedule.

Hopefully we’re still scheduled to play Adelaide that weekend, and it’s not brought forward for any reason.

[Jaded No More 57,540]

So the government found 50,000 Pfizers lying around to give NSW?

How curious. 

[John Crow Batty 8,215]

I’m really disappointed to see all those unmasked protester in Sydney and Melbourne and no doubt spreading the virus. Now looking forward to see a Melbourne VS ???? Grand Final at Optus Oval. Nice sunny day here in Perth and after our recent brief mini( kill it before it grows)lockdown, no masks and everything open. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by John Crow Batty

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,380]

18 hours ago, faultydet said:

Thats quite a good read from Waleed. Agree with almost all of it.

I'm one of those who cancelled my first Astra Zeneca shot, something that my 80yr old parents have been up me about since I did it.

Im totally against vaccination passports etc, but I will also line up willingly to get the jabs once my preferred vaccine is available (or the A.Z if my folks can browbeat me into it).

 

Pity the poor bastards who are losing their lifes work over these lockdowns though. If only the A.Z jab didn't claim those poor peoples lives. And in the end, I can't really whine about it, because I'm one of the gun shy folk when it comes to A.Z

Still think we should double down on the high risk age groups then open the country and tell people it's the jab or roulette.

Any chance you could be browbeaten into it by Demonland? Let me start: stop pretending to be ambivalent and go get vaccinated.

I'm sicking of paying my taxes to fund Medicare and our public health system only to have people putting themselves and others at risk of needing that service when a simple vaccination will reduce that need. I reckon if people are eligible to be vacinated and choose not to do so, the rest of us shouldn't have to pay a penny for any of their subsequent health costs.

So, Faultydet, would your view about getting AZ change if you knew you would have to fund all your health care costs should you catch Covid when unvaccinated?

[Demonland 64,361]

 

[titan_uranus 22,208]

There are two arguments peddled by the protesters and those who think like them, when arguing against lockdowns, that make my blood boil.

The first is that we have had very few deaths in Australia from COVID, and/or that the death rate from COVID is "low". That argument either ignores, or fails to contemplate, that the death rate in Australia is low because of the public health measures that have been implemented since March 2020, predominantly the use of lockdowns and mandatory mask wearing.

In other words, if we did what the protesters wanted, not only would the total number of deaths be higher, but the rate of death would also be higher, because we'd have more cases needing ICU/ventilation and fewer health resources to treat them.

The second argument is drawing comparisons between places like the UK or US right now with Australia right now (e.g. people saying crowds are allowed at the Euros but I can't leave my house). That argument either ignores, or fails to even think about, the wildly differing vaccination rates in the UK/US compared to Australia.

[old dee 22,799]

22 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Any chance you could be browbeaten into it by Demonland? Let me start: stop pretending to be ambivalent and go get vaccinated.

I'm sicking of paying my taxes to fund Medicare and our public health system only to have people putting themselves and others at risk of needing that service when a simple vaccination will reduce that need. I reckon if people are eligible to be vacinated and choose not to do so, the rest of us shouldn't have to pay a penny for any of their subsequent health costs.

So, Faultydet, would your view about getting AZ change if you knew you would have to fund all your health care costs should you catch Covid when unvaccinated?

Very good question LDC. I have 5 sleeps till I get my second AZ  shot I cannot wait. I agree if we accept the benifits of a national health scheme then we should accept the responsibilities that go along with it. 

[old dee 22,799]

Just now, titan_uranus said:

There are two arguments peddled by the protesters and those who think like them, when arguing against lockdowns, that make my blood boil.

The first is that we have had very few deaths in Australia from COVID, and/or that the death rate from COVID is "low". That argument either ignores, or fails to contemplate, that the death rate in Australia is low because of the public health measures that have been implemented since March 2020, predominantly the use of lockdowns and mandatory mask wearing.

In other words, if we did what the protesters wanted, not only would the total number of deaths be higher, but the rate of death would also be higher, because we'd have more cases needing ICU/ventilation and fewer health resources to treat them.

The second argument is drawing comparisons between places like the UK or US right now with Australia right now (e.g. people saying crowds are allowed at the Euros but I can't leave my house). That argument either ignores, or fails to even think about, the wildly differing vaccination rates in the UK/US compared to Australia.

I could not agree more TU.

[Diamond_Jim 11,670]

ATAGI have just changed their advice (again)

All people in NSW over the age of 18 should consider getting AZ

https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-statement-response-to-nsw-covid-19-outbreak-24th-july-2021

"A second reason for ATAGI to recommend that individuals strongly consider vaccination at this time is emerging data about severity of disease. The Delta variant may be more severe than the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. The proportion of people less than 60 years requiring hospitalisation appears to be higher than was reported in outbreaks with the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. This reinforces the benefit of protection with any available vaccine."

Edited July 24, 2021 by Diamond_Jim

[Engorged Onion 9,214]

I'll just stick this opinion piece here.

[Superunknown 3,307]

Are we allowed to discuss this outside the paradigm Of football 

I’d hate to be political and get a post deleted but this change in advice demands it

a sceptical person might infer that someone had called atagi and ask them To get the masses to take AZ

this reeks of political inteference

of course AZ is “totally safe”

(I’ve had AZ to be clear)

ooopps!

aaaannnnd that will no doubt affect the footy

3 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

ATAGI have just changed their advice (again)

All people in NSW over the age of 18 should consider getting AZ

https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-statement-response-to-nsw-covid-19-outbreak-24th-july-2021

"A second reason for ATAGI to recommend that individuals strongly consider vaccination at this time is emerging data about severity of disease. The Delta variant may be more severe than the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. The proportion of people less than 60 years requiring hospitalisation appears to be higher than was reported in outbreaks with the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. This reinforces the benefit of protection with any available vaccine.

[Lucifers Hero 36,972]

15 hours ago, Superunknown said:

Are we allowed to discuss this outside the paradigm Of football 

I’d hate to be political and get a post deleted but this change in advice demands it

a sceptical person might infer that someone had called atagi and ask them To get the masses to take AZ

this reeks of political inteference

of course AZ is “totally safe”

(I’ve had AZ to be clear)

ooopps!

aaaannnnd that will no doubt affect the footy

No one has said AZ is 'totally safe'.  in fact great pains are taken by the ATAGI, politicians, medicos and others to say it has risks.  Risks widely advertised by the media.

ATAGI has understandably taken a cautious stance with vaccine use and AZ, at all times weighing up the risks of a vaccine and its benefits vs the risk and severity of contracting covid.  They now have 6-9 months of international AZ use across various age groups so have better data on which to weigh up the risks/benefits.

My read (paraphrasing) is they have concluded the Delta variant shifts their risk assessment of contagion and severity.  And that AZ is better than no vaccine in high risk areas, hence why their recommendation is for NSW.  To my mind they are continuing to be cautious and responsible.

The medical industry has pushed back on the ATAGI on its risk/benefit assessment of AZ in light of the Delta variant.  So has the PM.  They have every right and in fact have a duty to ask for a reassessment by ATAGI of risk/benefit when circumstances change, as they have with Delta. 

The first covid was dangerous for 'older people'.  Delta is now equally dangerous for all age groups.  It is tragic the number of <40 y.o in NSW hospital's with covid.  The ATAGI has recognised this in its latest recommendations.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Lucifer's Hero

[whatwhat say what 18,739]

no crowds likely for the remainder of 2021?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/big-sporting-crowds-should-be-banned-says-who-adviser-20210724-p58cjs.html

[Lucifers Hero 36,972]

16 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

no crowds likely for the remainder of 2021?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/big-sporting-crowds-should-be-banned-says-who-adviser-20210724-p58cjs.html

Not sure Prof Fisher's views will carry much sway with state Premiers.

While he talks mainly of Victoria, if followed thru crowds would be banned in all states for all events.  Perhaps worthy but not going to happen.

[mauriesy 6,783]

20 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

There are two arguments peddled by the protesters and those who think like them, when arguing against lockdowns, that make my blood boil.

The first is that we have had very few deaths in Australia from COVID, and/or that the death rate from COVID is "low". That argument either ignores, or fails to contemplate, that the death rate in Australia is low because of the public health measures that have been implemented since March 2020, predominantly the use of lockdowns and mandatory mask wearing.

In other words, if we did what the protesters wanted, not only would the total number of deaths be higher, but the rate of death would also be higher, because we'd have more cases needing ICU/ventilation and fewer health resources to treat them.

The second argument is drawing comparisons between places like the UK or US right now with Australia right now (e.g. people saying crowds are allowed at the Euros but I can't leave my house). That argument either ignores, or fails to even think about, the wildly differing vaccination rates in the UK/US compared to Australia.

The protestors are QAnon or conspiracy-following adherents who still believe Covid is a hoax perpetrated by a dangerous world order, and that the rest of the population are sucked-in "sheeples". Trying to argue rationally about risk and science with people who are basically irrational is pointless.

[rjay 23,839]

15 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

rest of the population are sucked-in "sheeples"

I always find that "Sheeples" thing quite sad.

The only 'Sheeples' are QAnon followers.

All the hallmarks of a cult.

Blindly following that which has no evidence to back it up...not only that, all pronouncement and predictions they have made haven't come to pass.

Mindless fools.

Edited July 25, 2021 by rjay

[mauriesy 6,783]

I should add that these conspiracy theorists are mostly either paranoid or delusional, and they believe vaccine production is part of a world takeover by "Big Pharma". What's more, they believe they can control diseases by allowing their children to contract them, use "natural therapies"  to remediate and they will therefore become immune.

Like I said, you can't argue with their irrationality.

[Demonland 64,361]

 

[Diamond_Jim 11,670]

So many countries now have restrictions on those who aren't vaccinated.

From August 16 for example no entry into museums or art galleries in Italy for the non vaccinated

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,095]

9 hours ago, Demonland said:

 

I'm fine with that. As long as they don't implement this stance in September 2021 which would shut out the cohort of people that are ineligible to get the recommended vaccine until further notice.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Bring-Back-Powell

[Superunknown 3,307]

23 hours ago, Lucifer&#x27;s Hero said:

No one has said AZ is 'totally safe'.  in fact great pains are taken by the ATAGI, politicians, medicos and others to say it has risks.  Risks widely advertised by the media.

 

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2021/07/22/scott-morrison-astrazeneca-atagi/

The Prime Minister has said exactly that. The bolded text below is pretty unambiguous don't you think, he added his rider there though.

Quote

It’s a totally safe vaccine, the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration) would not have approved it if it were not.”

The families of people who've died as a result of having the vaccine might have a different point of view.

Can't argue with the rest of your post. The whole thing has been a public health and communication nightmare.

Disc: I work inside health so appreciate risk/benefits, messaging, etc

[Lucifers Hero 36,972]

32 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2021/07/22/scott-morrison-astrazeneca-atagi/

1) The Prime Minister has said exactly that. The bolded text below is pretty unambiguous don't you think, he added his rider there though.

2) The families of people who've died as a result of having the vaccine might have a different point of view.

Can't argue with the rest of your post.

3) The whole thing has been a public health and communication nightmare.

Disc: I work inside health so appreciate risk/benefits, messaging, etc

1) that quote was primarily in the context of 60+ and was two days before the ATAGI endorsed AZ for all age groups in NSW.  A rider or not I would expect a PM of any political persuasion to protect as many citizens as possible with a vaccine that has been successfully used internationally across all age groups.  

2) As would the families of the 21 people under 60 with covid in NSW hospitals.  As would the the family of the 30+ female who died of covid on Saturday and the family of the 57 yo mother who died with covid last week. Hopefully not, but soon we may have as many under 60 deaths from covid as there have been overall deaths (6) from AZ vaccine in Australia.  

3) Some of the responsibility for the PR 'nightmare' is with the Feds but it also goes back to ATAGI for inconsistency in age group recommendations, State Premiers and CFO's pushing their own views.  Most of these have chosen to ignore international experience.  Not to mention the media sensationalising AZ issues.

As you are in health it staggers me that you want to make covid a political issue on DL.  To my mind it is an issue that should stand above politics and discussed as objectively as possible.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Lucifer's Hero

[Demonland 64,361]

 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,380]

Whenever I see "AZ vaccine" I automatically think of Adem Yze. (That comment is just to ensure there is some football relevance in this post.)

The way I interpret the situation, ATAGI has not changed the underlying argument surrounding the use of any of the vaccines. The basis for their position is the relative risk of illness and possible death from being unvaccinated compared with the relative risk of illness and possible death from being vaccinated with AZ (or Pfizer). The relative risk changes depending on local circumstances. Hence, because the NSW situation has got worse, the risk profile changes and makes remaining unvaccinated a greater risk than having the AZ.

Unfortunately, in making these decisions, the ATAGI has not appreciated that it has helped to "tarnish" AZ in the process.   

[Superunknown 3,307]

15 minutes ago, Lucifer&#x27;s Hero said:

As you are in health it staggers me that you want to make covid a political issue on DL.  To my mind it is an issue that should stand above politics and discussed as objectively as possible.

Agree on the first part.

You're missing my point.

Plenty on here have politicised it - and I agree it should be objective. But the roll out and the pandemic more generally have become highly politicised, there is no denying that.

The messaging from the top - and I don't care what flavour that is - I'm unaligned politically - needs to be unambiguous and clear to assauge the concerns that have built up through a spectacularly poor public health campaign. Saying something is totally safe is probably not the best approach when others are talking about balanced risk when the risk though small is death. Language is important, and the word totally has a pretty well-understood meaning, and any context risks getting lost in the noise.

It's obvious the calculus in Sydney has changed so I'll not argue that.

I've leave it there.