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Off-season outlook: Pressure will be on Melbourne and Simon Goodwin



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40 minutes ago, old dee said:

Not sure if that is aimed at me dd.but I never said anything about him.

One thing I learned in my teens old dee was never try to deny or defend yourself against something you weren't involved in, in the first instance.

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As many have posted - the coach has to train and select the "right" players, but once the game starts it's mostly up to the selected players to deliver the result.  I think we've lacked on-field

All in all the narrative generally follows the performance. Very few people see it coming, they use perfect 20/20 hind sight to tell the story of how Hardwick or Clarkson, or whoever, was always a gen

We have stars in the midfield and down back and we should be pushing top 4. For those that don’t think this - you’re just trying to make failure more palatable. 

2 hours ago, drysdale demon said:

One thing I learned in my teens old dee was never try to deny or defend yourself against something you weren't involved in, in the first instance.

Or as my Attorney always tells me ..

” Deny,Deny,Deny unless you’re caught absolutely choc-a-block in which case just sign the divorce and settle.”

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20 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

It will be difficult for him to change his match day, in the box processing of gmes. Goody a life time learner?  I am not aware of any educational qualifications.

Sorry but he has gone overseas more than once to grin further degrees or qualms or skills to improve himself snd gain knowledge to benefit his career.

If thats not Getting some extra quals what is it? 

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1 hour ago, Hogan2014 said:

The appointments of Williams & Yze are great but also interesting...in particular with Goodwin recent events & one wanders wether the club are putting plans in place for Yze & Williams to mentor him 

You're probably reading a bit too much into it at the moment.

It's more likely the club realised the lack of experience in the FD.

...and remember, we were after Yze last year when there were no recent events.

So he came on board as his contract ended with the Hawks.

Williams for mine replaces Macca albeit a year too late as an experienced developer and mentor of players.

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10 hours ago, 58er said:

Sorry but he has gone overseas more than once to grin further degrees or qualms or skills to improve himself snd gain knowledge to benefit his career.

If thats not Getting some extra quals what is it? 

No degrees, just one or two, end of season  two or three  week  weetie packet junkets. 

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20 hours ago, Biffen said:

Or as my Attorney always tells me ..

” Deny,Deny,Deny unless you’re caught absolutely choc-a-block in which case just sign the divorce and settle.”

Never explain and never complain, I don't  know  what your talking  about  works best.

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8 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

No degrees, just one or two, end of season  two or three  week  weetie packet junkets. 

The point is HFF That Simon has made efforts to gain further knowledge and skills In his own time BUT as usual you are determined to criticise or diminish some moves ( by the Club ) or individuals and give very little or no credit for initiative or Learning.

Also please Give an example of what Simon could get To further his knowledge here or OS! That would qualify for a tick from you!!!

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8 hours ago, 58er said:

The point is HFF That Simon has made efforts to gain further knowledge and skills In his own time BUT as usual you are determined to criticise or diminish some moves ( by the Club ) or individuals and give very little or no credit for initiative or Learning.

Also please Give an example of what Simon could get To further his knowledge here or OS! That would qualify for a tick from you!!!

No, lets be accurate. You said he gained degrees overseas. Now you say he studied in his own time and initiative. Again inaccurate, it was Club orgainised.  I will give him credit when he improves his match day decision making and we consistently make the finals. Until then he is just another average coach getting paid very big dollars by community standards with a limited education. 

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On 12/31/2020 at 3:46 PM, binman said:

Yes a coach is responsible for motivation and creating the optimal environment that supports a win. And of course selecting the right players.

But when it is all said and done, once the game starts it is 95%,  maybe more, on the players. And doubts about goody should not obscure the fact that the players selected in those two games failed and let the club and fans down. They have to wear it.

I'd hate to see blame disproportionately sheeted to goody rather than where it should go- the players.

Partly agree not totally Goodies fault, but it is his responsibility to get the players in the right spots, with the right match ups, and the right attitude to win. He also has capacity to remove players and move players to exploit opposition weaknesses and counter opposition strength. The coach and the players need to have faith and n each other and themselves. It's a team game and the coach is the most significant part of that team. He may need individual players to inspire and create but he must also teach the team to respond to that individual act.

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On 1/4/2021 at 6:02 PM, binman said:

Wowsa?

It goes without saying that developing and implementing game plan is a key responsibility of a senior coach, but I wasn't making a list of the responsibilities of a coach. I was responding to a comment about about our appalling performance in the two games in cairns.

Sure Goody has to bear some responsibility for preparation and poor selection etc but those losses were down to the players, pure and simple. The game plan was barely a factor. In the Freo game the players were simply to too lazy to stop Freo's spread, just as they were against the dogs. Against the Swans, not for the first time they played stupid football in the wet and windy conditions. Is that on Goody?

In both games they were clearly not switched on. Of course Goody plays a role in getting them ready but these guys are professional footballers playing at the elite level. Being ready to play is ultimately their responsibility.  An AFL player expecting the coach to take responsibility for them being ready is amateursville.

And JG, without wanting to open a post Omac argument front, it is just nonsense to suggest Goody has  been slow to make changes to the game plan since 2018. The fundamentals haven't changed (contest out, win the ball at the contest, pressure) but our game plan has changed quite markedly over the 2019 and 2020 seasons. I'm surprised you think otherwise.

In my view the players have really struggled with the evident change in game plan and this was big factor in our poor 2020 season. 

And arguing we have selected the same side for too long equally nonsensical, given it is palpably untrue. 

I mean in 2019 injury made this impossible and i don't think we once had the same team run out. I'm pretty sure we had the most changes of any club in 2019.

This season injury was not an issue and from the get go goody elected to chop and change players, positions, set ups and structures and continued to do so all season (eg selecting Preuss to play as a forward in Cairns). Indeed i was critical of his fluid approach to selection all year and would have loved it if he 'selected the same side' week in, week out and kept players in the consistent positions.   

And to say Goodwin is largely responsible for where we are as a club? Wowsa.  Sure he bears his share of responsibility but largely responsible? Please. By that logic Hardwick is largely responsible for the tiger's success. And Clarkson - for both the success of the hawks and the more recent failure. 

In the book I referenced previously in this thread - the Captain Class - its author, Sam Walker, set out to identify the greatest sports teams of all time and answer the question as to what makes a great team? He devised a formula, then applied it to tens of thousands of teams from different sports leagues all over the world, going back to the 1850s.

He ended up with a list of the 16 greatest teams ever, what he refers to as tier one, and 106 tier two teams who were close. There are two Australian teams in tier one: the 1993 -2000 Women's hockey team and the Collingwood 1927-30 VFL team.

In the book he specifically addresses the role of the coach and the question of how big a factor they are in making a team great. His answer, based on more than decade of research and hundreds of interviews, was not a very big factor at all and certainly not as influential as most would assume. He noted that whilst of course coaches play an important role, the biggest factor in teams success is it players and in particular inspirational leaders.  

In terms of the ability of the coaches for his tier one and tier two teams (so in his considered opinion the 131 greatest sports teams of all time) he had this to say in an interview:

"I never imagined I’d be saying this, but the evidence was remarkably clear. The coaches of these elite teams were all over the map. Some were successful, inspirational, or tactically brilliant, but others were decidedly not. Most had unremarkable records before (and after) they took over these exceptional teams, or had little to no coaching experience. Several teams even changed coaches.

It’s not that coaches are irrelevant – far from it. But even the most revered ones – Vince Lombardi, Alex Ferguson, Bill Belichick and Phil Jackson – achieved their best results in partnership with a captain who didn’t always do what he was told'.

In terms of my comment that once the game starts it is 95%, maybe more, on the players, this quote from Alex Ferguson (soccer's Vince Lombardi) makes my point well:

“As hard as I worked on my own leadership skills, and as much as I tried to influence every aspect of United’s success on the field, at kickoff on match day things moved beyond my control.”

That is a great analysis and reference. Can hardly disagree with the luminaries quoted.

I still say however the coach is the most significant role to prepare the players to respond to the things that are beyond the coaches control on the day.There is an amount of individual instinctive response but the most important feature of our game is the teammates responsibility and faith in each other, that team includes the coach.

Thanks for the excellent response.

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On 1/5/2021 at 9:00 PM, dworship said:

If you go back several years I've posted previously about a program I was involved in, now more than 20yrs ago (I can hear the young'ns groaning already). I haven't engaged directly with you on the matter but your post prompted me to mention it again. As you have quoted; Coaches don't appear to have an overt influence on performance per say. All this talk about  Game Plan and the programs around "Leading Teams" and "Commando Training" are great for showing what can be done but I've never believed it really takes hold mentally and becomes ingrained "behaviors". What I was taught in the program I did was; if you haven't done the mind training then when you let go of the rudder you will go back to the old habits. Clary was a point in case this year, Burgo had said to him "if you're clear, take three quick steps before releasing the ball". I saw this implemented a few times in games to great effect and then gradually saw Clary revert to habit. The follow up techniques to support this change are not being taught.

Most on here would say; well that's a coaching problem. But you don't know what you don't know. Binman you have done some great reading/research/posting on the subject so I'll challenge you to pursue my comments by looking at Coach Nick Saban of Alabama Crimson Tide football team and the record in the 7 or so years before he arrived. Why has he been so successful since? I'll give you a hint, they invested in a program that is more focused on individual performance (and no it doesn't give up team focus). Yes, the same program I did 20yrs ago is still being taught to the new players in 2020. I'll leave you with a snippet from Saben. 

 

That is certainly still relevant.

Thanks for sharing

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On 1/9/2021 at 12:34 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

I only heard a whisper...

he has a job to do

News Corp had no issues naming him.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-demons-coach-simon-goodwin-becomes-third-afl-coach-to-split-from-wife-ng-b881765479z
 

It’s sad for him and his family, but from a pure footy sense, let’s hope this doesn’t distract him from the huge job he has in 2021.

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8 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

No, lets be accurate. You said he gained degrees overseas. Now you say he studied in his own time and initiative. Again inaccurate, it was Club orgainised.  I will give him credit when he improves his match day decision making and we consistently make the finals. Until then he is just another average coach getting paid very big dollars by community standards with a limited 

HFF again  you are concerned with accuracy.

Well my post indicated Individuals  and (By Clubs) as the source of the initiative of Simons Overseas courses and qualifications or skills as well as degrees.

You have like me have no inside knowledge of who (Club or  Simon) we're the initiator of any of the courses.

You also have appear to have no knowledge of the Course or sort of skills  obtained overseas by Simon.

You finish saying you are awaiting evidence  of His usage of the skills ( but have no specific knowledge of the content)  and just wipe away any thing done as a course reward title obtained  from a Virtual cereal packet to further dismiss any credit of the effort to improve.

Your posts sadly are very similar to marketing or political statements made by Some Govts and Private Companies with mostly spin and lacking truth or Intimate lnowledge of the facts.

I like  you want Simon the be the best he can be and believe he has further to go and plenty to learn but not trying to improve with extra knowledge is not one of his failures.

In 2021 we shall see if upgraded assistance in coaching  will Also assist in improved of mainly game day impotence and decision making.
 

 

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1 hour ago, 58er said:

HFF again  you are concerned with accuracy.

Well my post indicated Individuals  and (By Clubs) as the source of the initiative of Simons Overseas courses and qualifications or skills as well as degrees.

You have like me have no inside knowledge of who (Club or  Simon) we're the initiator of any of the courses.

You also have appear to have no knowledge of the Course or sort of skills  obtained overseas by Simon.

You finish saying you are awaiting evidence  of His usage of the skills ( but have no specific knowledge of the content)  and just wipe away any thing done as a course reward title obtained  from a Virtual cereal packet to further dismiss any credit of the effort to improve.

Your posts sadly are very similar to marketing or political statements made by Some Govts and Private Companies with mostly spin and lacking truth or Intimate lnowledge of the facts.

I like  you want Simon the be the best he can be and believe he has further to go and plenty to learn but not trying to improve with extra knowledge is not one of his failures.

In 2021 we shall see if upgraded assistance in coaching  will Also assist in improved of mainly game day impotence and decision making.
 

 

Wow.

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On 1/6/2021 at 2:16 PM, NeveroddoreveN said:

Great post! I been banging on about the benefits of mindfulness and knowing how great it has been for a club like Richmond who were prior to that perennial underachievers.  It gobsmacks me why you would not try and gain every little possible advantage that you could in an industry where a % difference can mean playing finals or not.  Of all the clubs out there i think we could benefit the most out of it due to our past history.  I expect we will do it in like 10 years time where and when the whole industry will be using it to gain every advantage possible. i really pray we get onto it much sooner.  Most of our issues are "up top!"

While I agree with your comments around "mindfulness", the course I did and that the "Tide" do, had much more to it. When mindfulness is mentioned I think of techniques like meditation and yoga that focus an "calming" and clearing the mind. I have heard mindfulness connected with visualization techniques and this is more the kind of area where habits can be broken and performance improved. But, it needs a holistic approach. I'm sure that some of these things are being used however I'm not sure how well. Similar to my comments around Clarry, I've always been dismayed by how down on himself Hogan could get and to some extent Trac and others. Negative thoughts are a receipe for repeating the same mistake and undermine performance. Positive self talk like "that's not like me" and "next time" together  with, "I am" and "I do" when used with regular affirmations can and does start to influence performance. The players train a lot on their skills and the coach's want the play to be instinctive and have developed methods and programs to achieve this physically. I'm not seeing the results of a similar approach to the training of the mind but rather an adhoc process.

To paraphrase Dennis Pagan; "90% of the game is played between ear and ear".

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1 hour ago, 58er said:

HFF again  you are concerned with accuracy.

Well my post indicated Individuals  and (By Clubs) as the source of the initiative of Simons Overseas courses and qualifications or skills as well as degrees.

You have like me have no inside knowledge of who (Club or  Simon) we're the initiator of any of the courses.

You also have appear to have no knowledge of the Course or sort of skills  obtained overseas by Simon.

You finish saying you are awaiting evidence  of His usage of the skills ( but have no specific knowledge of the content)  and just wipe away any thing done as a course reward title obtained  from a Virtual cereal packet to further dismiss any credit of the effort to improve.

Your posts sadly are very similar to marketing or political statements made by Some Govts and Private Companies with mostly spin and lacking truth or Intimate lnowledge of the facts.

I like  you want Simon the be the best he can be and believe he has further to go and plenty to learn but not trying to improve with extra knowledge is not one of his failures.

In 2021 we shall see if upgraded assistance in coaching  will Also assist in improved of mainly game day impotence and decision making.
 

 

12/11/2018 · Goodwin, 41, is in the final days of a three-week overseas trip which included visits to several English Premier League soccer clubs. It begins a huge year for the Melbourne coach who is expected to sign a lucrative contract extension before the 2019 season starts.

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14 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

12/11/2018 · Goodwin, 41, is in the final days of a three-week overseas trip which included visits to several English Premier League soccer clubs. It begins a huge year for the Melbourne coach who is expected to sign a lucrative contract extension before the 2019 season starts.


I wonder if one of those clubs was where Burgess was working at the time

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9 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

12/11/2018 · Goodwin, 41, is in the final days of a three-week overseas trip which included visits to several English Premier League soccer clubs. It begins a huge year for the Melbourne coach who is expected to sign a lucrative contract extension before the 2019 season starts.

Thank you HFF but WHO initiated it Is still open to question Club approval a YES required irrespective.

I have an idea he also went to US one winter and completed some training at a College Or Uni (or a Harvard type ).After 2019 might be the time.

I think even harshest critics should perhaps upon reflection recognise 2020 as a average but tough season for all and believe they if 2021 can keep the players in Vic we have a better chance of developing and succeeding with the playing and coaching and fitness potential now assembled.

Its a bit like All the stars look much more aligned at this time in 21 than they did lady season before Covid struck.
 

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Goodwin has completed the AFL requirements to be an AFL coach and done as much as other coaches have to educate and better himself.

imv, it isn't lack of education (formal or otherwise) that is impacting his coaching.

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14 hours ago, dworship said:

While I agree with your comments around "mindfulness", the course I did and that the "Tide" do, had much more to it. When mindfulness is mentioned I think of techniques like meditation and yoga that focus an "calming" and clearing the mind. I have heard mindfulness connected with visualization techniques and this is more the kind of area where habits can be broken and performance improved. But, it needs a holistic approach. I'm sure that some of these things are being used however I'm not sure how well. Similar to my comments around Clarry, I've always been dismayed by how down on himself Hogan could get and to some extent Trac and others. Negative thoughts are a receipe for repeating the same mistake and undermine performance. Positive self talk like "that's not like me" and "next time" together  with, "I am" and "I do" when used with regular affirmations can and does start to influence performance. The players train a lot on their skills and the coach's want the play to be instinctive and have developed methods and programs to achieve this physically. I'm not seeing the results of a similar approach to the training of the mind but rather an adhoc process.

To paraphrase Dennis Pagan; "90% of the game is played between ear and ear".

I went to a talk by the Richmond mindfulness coach, Emma Murray a couple of years ago and it was very interesting to hear her talk about their approach to breaking out of negative self talk and mid game slumps. Unless she was BS’ing the conference delegates, it is definitely mindfulness techniques but vastly simplified to help an AFL player remember and be able to execute it on the field. They use focus change (both physical and mental) and re-orientation back to the hear and now. This is classic mindfulness but they really bought into it as a group and worked both in group sessions and 1-1 to train it in and reinforce. Obviously she would have somewhat of a bias about it’s contribution to their success but it sounded like the whole club has  attributed a great deal of their turn around to mindfulness and their ability to arrest mid-game form slumps and negativity.

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17 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

I went to a talk by the Richmond mindfulness coach, Emma Murray a couple of years ago and it was very interesting to hear her talk about their approach to breaking out of negative self talk and mid game slumps. Unless she was BS’ing the conference delegates, it is definitely mindfulness techniques but vastly simplified to help an AFL player remember and be able to execute it on the field. They use focus change (both physical and mental) and re-orientation back to the hear and now. This is classic mindfulness but they really bought into it as a group and worked both in group sessions and 1-1 to train it in and reinforce. Obviously she would have somewhat of a bias about it’s contribution to their success but it sounded like the whole club has  attributed a great deal of their turn around to mindfulness and their ability to arrest mid-game form slumps and negativity.

Sounds very interesting and relevant to us when a side gets a run on or a game is at the death. All that matters then is the next bounce, thhe next contest the next shepherd, kick or goal. i know this may be of no interest to others and certainly not saying I was a good footballer, but recently I remembered a game from my youth. I had been dropped for the first time ever and the following week I was selected at fullback after failing playing forward. A lively full forward kicked two on me in the opening minutes. Somehow I  held him kickless for the remainder of the game and reading your post I now realise I just concentrated fully on my man and my positioning, holding and punching the ball every time the ball came down. its something used a lot in basketball as well. Massive concentration on the ball, rather than the player doing fancy moves.

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