Farewell Sam Weideman

[dworship 3,342]

8 minutes ago, Marty said:

And I should add.

we shelve Weid now. You don’t cut it!

Tmac gets injured say 1 month later, M Brown is also injured...and now we need Weid, who we just told wasn’t going cut it.

If you go back to my post on pg 9 where I talk about  the "Non Negoitables"; in the absence of demonstrated superior play by BBB then Sammy has the opportunity to build on his performance. If Weid falls away in the non negoitables then he leaves himself in a position to be replaced.

[Marty 419]

9 hours ago, dworship said:

Given you've chosen Ham as your moniker it appears you are "A performer who overacts or exaggerates". If you are going to defend yourself by playing the old "it's all just opinions" card it's probably a good idea to be a bit more thick skinned. You need to realise that if you put forward an opinion that I or others don't agree with, then you are open to cross examination, probing and in some cases ridicule. Having said all that, some of your opinion (and lets face it there is a lot) has bits I might agree with. Problem is you lose credibility when you throw in all the stuff you have no evidence for and your opinion appears to be influenced by feelings in your nether regions. Feel free to provide an opinion on my post below but don't waste my time with juvenile BS.

I'm in the camp that thinks Weid should be given more time in the Senior side. That's an opinion. My observation of his last 4 games lead me to think he is improving and importantly the non negotiables are being delivered (think "selflessness" "team defence", "positioning", "constant presentation"). That's an observation leading to an opinion.

I don't believe kicking straight for goal or taking every mark as a one touch grab are "non negotiables". I would imagine there are certain KPI's that might need to be met regarding that however. That's a guess leading to an opinion.

A number of posters believe Sam has been given too much time to improve based on his age or time on our list. You have blamed the MFC and the Coaches for failing to develop him properly.

Weid has played 48 senior games, FACT. Last season he played 13 consecutive games (the greatest amount of consecutive games he has ever played by a considerable margin), from R6 to R18. Averaged 2 goals a game R6 to R14. FACT . All his other stats were reasonable for a key forward during this period. Opinion. He fell away badly in the final 4 games particularly in the Cairns games and I'm not going to try and guess why. That would be speculation.

I think he has had a tougher path than most and has had struggles with injuries that have impacted his development, consistency and confidence. I would like to see him get at least another 4 or more consecutive games before doubting him. Opinion.

Even then my opinion would be that the Coaches know what they are doing, more often than not, on the evidence to date.

Top post! 
When we are losing games because Sam is getting out marked and the oppo are strolling down the other end to easy goals. We should get rid of him.
But he’s not so just leave it. l was listening to SEN Friday night. Gerald Healy, the biggest Dees detractor, was saying how much he loved Sam, thought he’s going to make it as he contested everything! Watch the replay, second half, without biased. How many goals was Sam involved in. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Marty
Dodgy grammar

[Fork 'em 6,505]

The Weids been with the club 6 more years than Brown.
Grown up playing with half the players in the side and have some good mates among them.
I'm happy he's been given every chance to solidify his spot over the new grub.
Be better for team dynamics if Weid holds his spot IMO.
 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Fork 'em

[Trisul 636]

It's worth remembering that Weideman came 8th in the Bluey on a points per game basis last year.  So only behind Petracca , May, Viney, Langdon, Oliver, Gawn, Brayshaw.  I believe he can get back to that level and that he's been working hard at doing so.  Crunch time within the next month or so though.

[rpfc 27,383]

He’s probably got a few more weeks to get going.

The FD probably want to make sure Weed sticks around for the health of the list over the next 5 years.

However, when it gets to the spiky end of the season - Ben Brown is a better option for 2021. Sam has a few weeks to change that view.

[dworship 3,342]

18 minutes ago, Marty said:

Top post! 
When we are losing games because Sam is getting out marked and the oppo are strolling down the other end to easy goals. We should get rid of him.
But he’s not so just leave it. l was listening to SEN Friday night. Gerald Healy, the biggest Dees detractor, was saying how much he loved Sam, thought he’s going to make it as he contested everything! Watch the replay, second half, without biased. How many goals was Sam involved in. 

Thanks Marty and that actually made me think of the other things that happened when he didn't have the ball. If you go back through the footage there were times when Weid had made a strong lead but kept Andrews behind him and allowed a team mate to chop in without pressure. Even his effort near the end of the 3rd qtr where ANB gets the quick snap out of congestion and the ball falls agonisingly short of  Weids diving attempt. In that passage he was first to react and had at least a metre on Andrews and then was instrumental in keeping the ball alive but out of reach of the opposition and a quick clearance by them. Again I will say it, he is contributing and doing all the non - negoitables.

[Dwight Schrute 16,712]

He's building. you sometimes see forwards who do everything right and don't get rewarded and that's Weid in my opinion. 

he was 1-2% away from kicking a big bag, he's getting both hands to the ball so regularly that when they stick, he's going to be scary and i guarantee it's going to happen if we just back him in. 

he completely beat Harris Andrews several times, had him on toast but it just didn't stick. 

please MFC for the love of god back Weid in now, this bloke finding form would just about give us one hand on the cup. he's the missing link from us being the best team in it, and us really widening that gap and turning into a Hawthorn/Richmond/Geelong/Brisbane type team that is right up there for a few years and winning flags regularly. that's how good the Weid can be. 

Ben Brown is great cover, probably stiff to be dropped, but Weid is so close to locking that spot in long term 

[Sydee 3,612]

4 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

He's building. you sometimes see forwards who do everything right and don't get rewarded and that's Weid in my opinion. 

he was 1-2% away from kicking a big bag, he's getting both hands to the ball so regularly that when they stick, he's going to be scary and i guarantee it's going to happen if we just back him in. 

he completely beat Harris Andrews several times, had him on toast but it just didn't stick. 

please MFC for the love of god back Weid in now, this bloke finding form would just about give us one hand on the cup. he's the missing link from us being the best team in it, and us really widening that gap and turning into a Hawthorn/Richmond/Geelong/Brisbane type team that is right up there for a few years and winning flags regularly. that's how good the Weid can be. 

Ben Brown is great cover, probably stiff to be dropped, but Weid is so close to locking that spot in long term 

Love your optimism and not saying he is a lost cause but that is just so far off the mark - literally 

I would probably persevere with Sam too as I really don't rate BB much and frankly his last exposed form in the VFL sounded very poor. 

Based on that Mitch Brown or Majak Daw would be more deserving of a call up or simply revert to the structure we had before Weid or BB were available for selection.

Weid has ability - he will probably get another chance this week but those chances will eventually disappear unless he can find a way to impact the game consistently. I really think he is more of a lead up forward than pack marking forward and therefore we need to create space for him to run onto the ball - hopefully with Spargo delivering. His kicking looks shaky too atm which has been a strength before. In my opinion if he continues to try and take pack marks as his main focus he isn't going to make it he's simply not strong enough 

 

[Dwight Schrute 16,712]

1 minute ago, Sydee said:

Love your optimism and not saying he is a lost cause but that is just so far off the mark - literally 

I would probably persevere with Sam too as I really don't rate BB much and frankly his last exposed form in the VFL sounded very poor. 

Based on that Mitch Brown or Majak Daw would be more deserving of a call up or simply revert to the structure we had before Weid or BB were available for selection.

Weid has ability - he will probably get another chance this week but those chances will eventually disappear unless he can find a way to impact the game consistently. I really think he is more of a lead up forward than pack marking forward and therefore we need to create space for him to run onto the ball - hopefully with Spargo delivering. His kicking looks shaky too atm which has been a strength before. In my opinion if he continues to try and take pack marks as his main focus he isn't going to make it he's simply not strong enough 

 

He IS impacting games consistently, but he's not getting the personal rewards as yet. he's a bit like Angus Brayshaw, he was directly involved in a high % of our scores on the weekend, at the moment it's through bringing it to ground, but he's also great at blocking and making space for others. he allowed Pickett and Tmac the space to take marks virtually unopposed at times. 

every bit of his game is there but the stuff that people look for in a key forward like huge pack marks and goals. and i'm incredibly confident that is going to come. 

it's all confidence for Weid now, the battle for how good a player he will become in time is in his mind, and the club can give him the best chance by rewarding what he is doing well, which is significant, and backing him in 

[Demon Dynasty 15,161]

People comparing Sam and BB's statistical performances over such a short period of 3 to 4 weeks and using them (even in part) to decide who is the anointed one is crazy bad analysis.

You need at least 6 to 8 games minimum in any season (from each player) to get a true indication of how any player is fairing staistically vs another/others.

Form is a different matter and something you can more obviously see over a three to four week block of games.  And i mean see.  No stats needed.

It would appear to be quite clear that in a form sense neither player was setting the world on fire and IMHO neither has a clear edge on the other at this point (of this season!).

In a career sense (based on pure career stat averages which is dangerous in isolation in terms of short term present form) ...BB does have the Weid covered (in some cases just) or well beaten in pretty much every aspect of the game including tackles inside 50 (just), contested marking inside 50 and on a lead, pressure acts, score involvements, contested & uncontestedball, ground ball gets inside 50, intercept possessions and goal kicking including accuracy (by a fair margin).

Has BB lost that ability since joining the MFC?  I highly doubt it but he might not be playing at or near his best at present.

Is the Weid overtaking BB in a these areas.  Probably not just yet.  Is he capable?  Sure.  Is it likely to happen given enough time?  Who knows.  How much time is enough time?

Edited June 6, 2021 by Rusty Nails

[Sydee 3,612]

5 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

He IS impacting games consistently, but he's not getting the personal rewards as yet. he's a bit like Angus Brayshaw, he was directly involved in a high % of our scores on the weekend, at the moment it's through bringing it to ground, but he's also great at blocking and making space for others. he allowed Pickett and Tmac the space to take marks virtually unopposed at times. 

every bit of his game is there but the stuff that people look for in a key forward like huge pack marks and goals. and i'm incredibly confident that is going to come. 

it's all confidence for Weid now, the battle for how good a player he will become in time is in his mind, and the club can give him the best chance by rewarding what he is doing well, which is significant, and backing him in 

Ok lets agree to disagree on the fact he is impacting games enough atm

However, if you or Sam think that he is going to make at AFL level relying on taking pack marks then I'm afraid you are both going to be very disappointed. Can he jump - you betcha, can he get hands to the ball - yep, Is he easily pushed aside/under the flight of the ball - yep. He will I'm sure take the odd pack mark but for him to really succeed he needs to learn to work as hard as TMac or a Nick Riewoldt creating space then running into it

For Sam what works at VFL level is not going to work consistently in the AFL the sooner he realises that the better imo

 

[loges 5,992]

16 hours ago, Marty said:

Compare apples with apples.

round 9

Weid 13 disposals 0.1 goals 5 marks 1 tackles

Brown 11 disposals 0.1 goals 3 marks 0 tackles

 

round 10

Weid (AFL) 9 disposals 1.1 goals  3 marks 4 tackles

Brown (VFL)  4 disposals 0.0 goals 0 marks 0 tackles

round 11

Weid 6 disposals 2.1 goals 5 marks 1 tackle

Brown did not play

 

round 12

Weid 8 disposals 0.1 goals 3 marks 2 tackles

Brown did not play

 

form from last 4 weeks ?

Sydney game ?

[drdrake 3,035]

We have no idea what Role Weiderman was assigned.  It is simple to say he has to kick goals, he had his opportunity and needs to start kicking the 1-2 that he shouldn't miss but he has the best defender and competed very well against him.

Weiderman allows TMac, Jackson and Fritsch to hit up at the ball get running with the confidence that the long kick we have a bloke that will jump at everything and if he doesn't mark it will bring it to ground.  It gives Pickett, Spargo and ANB confidence that if they work hard to be front and square they will get an opportunity.

Our back 6 looked balanced at the end of last season, I think the forward line with Weiderman playing deep is starting to really find that balance.  My concern with B Brown is that he plays similar to TMac/Fritsch leading forwards, TMac struggled playing that deep contested marking forward in 19/20 we don't want to change the way he is playing now , Fritsch is best running and Jackson still gets pushed off the ball, bringing in B Brown will change the dynamic of the forward line, which really is doing pretty well at the moment.

 

[Kent 2,574]

8 minutes ago, Sydee said:

Ok lets agree to disagree on the fact he is impacting games enough atm

However, if you or Sam think that he is going to make at AFL level relying on taking pack marks then I'm afraid you are both going to be very disappointed. Can he jump - you betcha, can he get hands to the ball - yep, Is he easily pushed aside/under the flight of the ball - yep. He will I'm sure take the odd pack mark but for him to really succeed he needs to learn to work as hard as TMac or a Nick Riewoldt creating space then running into it

For Sam what works at VFL level is not going to work consistently in the AFL the sooner he realises that the better imo

 

Very reasonable analysis and view

Sam needed to focus on his own improvement just like T Mac did in the off season. I was so impressed with him as I really thought he was gone for all money. I really don't care about Sam other than that.

It really is up to him. If he doesn't then he will gradually drift away and never realise his potential

[Sydee 3,612]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

Very reasonable analysis and view

Sam needed to focus on his own improvement just like T Mac did in the off season. I was so impressed with him as I really thought he was gone for all money. I really don't care about Sam other than that.

It really is up to him. If he doesn't then he will gradually drift away and never realise his potential

TMac is a good example of what can happen when players realise what they need to change to improve their impact in the team

Weid has ability and I'm not criticising him as I genuinely feel is trying his best but just like TMac, Harmes, Hunt, Brayshaw, Tommo before he got injured - Weid needs to discover what works and what doesn't work to reach his potential

[titan_uranus 22,210]

26 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

He IS impacting games consistently, but he's not getting the personal rewards as yet. he's a bit like Angus Brayshaw, he was directly involved in a high % of our scores on the weekend, at the moment it's through bringing it to ground, but he's also great at blocking and making space for others. he allowed Pickett and Tmac the space to take marks virtually unopposed at times. 

every bit of his game is there but the stuff that people look for in a key forward like huge pack marks and goals. and i'm incredibly confident that is going to come. 

it's all confidence for Weid now, the battle for how good a player he will become in time is in his mind, and the club can give him the best chance by rewarding what he is doing well, which is significant, and backing him in 

Was he?

He had three score involvements. Our only players to have fewer were our four biggest defenders in May, Lever, Hibberd and Petty.

Granted, AFAIK score involvements are only credited to players who have a disposal, hitout to advantage, kick-in or knock-on in a scoring chain, but I don't think it's accurate to say he was "directly involved in a high % of our scores".

[Marcus94 100]

I honestly believe Weids will work it out soon! He had an off night on Friday night and he has missed a few marks in the last couple of weeks, but I remember hearing Tmac talk about himself a few weeks ago saying that each game he felt that he was getting more comfortable with clunking big marks at the top level.

With more games that Weids has he will settle, I'm sticking fat with him. He's an important part of our future.

[dazzledavey36 48,619]

17 minutes ago, Sydee said:

Ok lets agree to disagree on the fact he is impacting games enough atm

However, if you or Sam think that he is going to make at AFL level relying on taking pack marks then I'm afraid you are both going to be very disappointed. Can he jump - you betcha, can he get hands to the ball - yep, Is he easily pushed aside/under the flight of the ball - yep. He will I'm sure take the odd pack mark but for him to really succeed he needs to learn to work as hard as TMac or a Nick Riewoldt creating space then running into it

For Sam what works at VFL level is not going to work consistently in the AFL the sooner he realises that the better imo

 

Well said.

This is his 6th year at AFL level. I'm watching the likes Ben King, Aaron Naughton, Oscar  Allen and Harry McKay speed right past him in terms of talent and impact of games. Not only that, the first 3 players I named are at least 2-3 years younger then Sam. McKay came from the same draft as Weideman and he'll go close to winning the Coleman this year.

I've been a supporter of Sam, but excuses are running out for him. We have a 60 goal a year key forward who's ready to go and right now if it was up to me he'd be playing right now.

[Watson11 1,880]

I’m a bit on the fence on this one. Weid is not in great form with either marking or kicking but as others said he’s taking the best defender and competing, and his defensive game, although not perfect, is in front of BB this year.

I was surprised that Fagan sent Andrew’s to Weid and Adam’s to TMac. Maybe Andrew’s has no tank. I find it hard to believe Fagan and other coaches rate Weid in front of TMac this year.

 

 

[Binmans PA 25,885]

17 hours ago, Macca said:

I'd like to see Weideman used differently rather than predominantly deep forward.

Multiple leads even if he ends up on the wing sometimes (Jackson, T-Mac and/or Gawn can all drift forward if that happens)

He needs to get his hands on the ball and get some cheap uncontested marks.  Get him into the play

Or perhaps the MC prefer him to play the role that he's got so they can use T-Mac, LJ & Gawn the way they're being used. If that's the case then is his role an issue? 

You have to be a really talented player to excel in the role that's he got so there's that as well.  He doesn't have the ability of a Lynch or Cameron type

So my preference aside,  I reckon the MC won't be changing things up as I suspect that the they are prepared to persevere with Weideman in the role that he's got

 

Each to their own mate. I much prefer Weideman deep. I don't trust him yet to play a roaming half forward role where he takes marks and hits targets inside 50. McDonald on the other hand, I do trust.

I felt the forward set up on Friday was just about perfect. McDonald at CHF and Weideman deep FF. Kozzy at his feet.

Edited June 7, 2021 by A F

[Macca 16,173]

6 minutes ago, A F said:

Each to their own mate. I much prefer Weideman deep. I don't trust him yet to play a roaming half forward role where he takes marks and hits targets inside 50. McDonald on the other hand, I do trust.

I felt the forward set up on Friday was just about perfect. McDonald at CHF and Weideman deep FF. Kozzy at his feet.

But it's not about what you or I want or like ... I'm already in agreement on what actually works for the team and so does the MC by the looks of it

My suggestion of Weideman working his way up the field and getting involved in the game is for Sam's benefit.  Otherwise, unless he improves in the role that he currently has,  he might find himself out of the team

From the point of view of Sam the footballer,  he needs more scope to his game.  At the moment his game is one dimensional

He's doing 'ok' and I've still got him in the team but I'd like him to improve his football

[Binmans PA 25,885]

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

But it's not about what you or I want or like ... I'm already in agreement on what actually works for the team and so does the MC by the looks of it

My suggestion of Weideman working his way up the field and getting involved in the game is for Sam's benefit.  Otherwise, unless he improves in the role that he currently has,  he might find himself out of the team

From the point of view of Sam the footballer,  he needs more scope to his game.  At the moment his game is one dimensional

He's doing 'ok' and I've still got him in the team but I'd like him to improve his football

I guess what I'm thinking is taking some marks deep forward, closer to goal where conversion is easier, might get his confidence up, which will then enable him to be a vital contributor up the ground.

[Macca 16,173]

Just now, A F said:

I guess what I'm thinking is taking some marks deep forward, closer to goal where conversion is easier, might get his confidence up, which will then enable him to be a vital contributor up the ground.

Personally, I'd prefer it if we set Sam up to be the best footballer that he can be but ... I understand the MC having him in a role that best suits the team

Just because we've got Ben Brown waiting in the wings doesn't mean that he's the default option.  Although it looks that way doesn't it?

What I'd like to see is Weideman playing so well that Ben Brown doesn't get a look in

And I don't dislike Ben Brown either ... quite the contrary, I believe he's got a lot to offer if he can rediscover his best form

[Macca 16,173]

Rotating 3 bigs within a forward line is nothing new anyway ... Although I didn't see it, Essendon employed that system during the 60's

Using 3 of Fordham, Noonan, Blethyn & Fraser at various times to great effect.  2 flags & runners up.  Coleman & Clarke were the coaches in that era

The coach of Geelong at the time (Peter Pianto) employed the forward press during games (learnt from his soccer background)

So a lot of what we see has been done before (albeit in a non professional era)

So could Weideman play further out from goal on occasions?  Absolutely he could and I reckon he needs to.  But if the MC keep him in his current role as a stay-at-home I hope they don't lose patience too quickly

As I see it he's doing about as well as he can do given his talent levels

[Scipio 5,868]

8 minutes ago, Macca said:

Rotating 3 bigs within a forward line is nothing new anyway ... Although I didn't see it, Essendon employed that system during the 60's

Using 3 of Fordham, Noonan, Blethyn & Fraser at various times to great effect.  2 flags & runners up.  Coleman & Clarke were the coaches in that era

The coach of Geelong at the time (Peter Pianto) employed the forward press during games (learnt from his soccer background)

So a lot of what we see has been done before (albeit in a non professional era)

So could Weideman play further out from goal on occasions?  Absolutely he could and I reckon he needs to.  But if the MC keep him in his current role as a stay-at-home I hope they don't lose patience too quickly

As I see it he's doing about as well as he can do given his talent levels

Brisbane did it too with Brown, Bradshaw and Lynch. Worked pretty well for them!