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4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We like to think we are a destination club but we aren't.  Some recent players joining from other clubs (Lever, May, Langdon, Tomlinson) is because we pay 'overs' or were their only option left.  I have a similar sense of the names being mentioned for us this year.

Will wait and see what deals we get done this year and hope that anyone who joins does so because they really want to play for us.

I find it very frustrating that Carlton and Saints are attracting very good players.  They have the same or better 'premiership' window.  One has to wonder what player managers are telling their players about different clubs and where they direct them.

I think our current inclusions stack up OK against Carlton and St.Kilda so far.

Hibberd, Melksham, Lever, May, Preuss, Langdon and Tomlinson.

I expect we'll add at least 2 more this year.

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The Adam Treloar situation is interesting.  Sounds like Collingwood may be using his partners relocation to try and get him off the books and get some draft capital back, but he wants to stay at Collingwood (or Vic club if he gets shoved out the door).

Hey Carlton, here's the mid you should be chasing, hands off Clarrie. Thank you.

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4 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I'm not that naive TU and there's plenty of cynicism (hoopla!??) in what i said....but...then there's the bleeding obvious and to me this one has been sitting out there like bull's balls for a mighty long time.

The good / great clubs know what they need to take the next step and more often than not land the big fishes required to take them to finals/remain there or push into the top 4 / vie for a GF/flag.

Unfortunately we appear to be right out of the mix for the marquee players (potentially up for trade) more often than not and our name is rarely mentioned when the heat is on in the trade period.

Instead we see teams like the Cats, who hardly need any more assistance (in this case another KF as they already have Hawkins) front and centre, touting in the press that they are in to Cameron in a big way.  That should be the MFC.  Our need is much greater than theirs yet we're seemingly not even in the race.

This is not a one off and history tells us we've been asleep at the wheel for many decades in this area going all the way back to when Bobby Davis stole Doug Wade out from under our nose in the late 60s.

Geelong has a culture that is better than probably all 17 other clubs, that's undeniable and a testament to their management and leadership.

They've also got some unique attributes that Melbourne-based clubs can't offer (e.g. not being in Melbourne, "country" lifestyle and associated cost of living benefits, etc.).

We're not the only club who missed the finals who could use Jeremy Cameron. You also don't know what's been done by the club behind the scenes: again, the key issue is that the world doesn't work in a way that says we should be able to convince any given player to show up and play for us. 

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We like to think we are a destination club but we aren't.  Some recent players joining from other clubs (Lever, May, Langdon, Tomlinson) is because we pay 'overs' or were their only option left.  I have a similar sense of the names being mentioned for us this year.

Will wait and see what deals we get done this year and hope that anyone who joins does so because they really want to play for us.

I find it very frustrating that Carlton and Saints are attracting very good players.  They have the same or better 'premiership' window.  One has to wonder what player managers are telling their players about different clubs and where they direct them.

IMO this is baseless, @Lucifer's Hero.

Suggesting we were May, Lever, Langdon or Tomlinson's "only option left" is ridiculous and unfair. Suggesting the only players who come here don't "really want to play for us" is ridiculous and unfair. 

Complaining about paying "overs" is also unfair. How do you think Carlton has attracted Saad and Williams? Bucketloads of cash! Almost every club, if not every club, pays "overs" to attract A-grade talent from other clubs.

May was in AA form this year. Lever is a previous AA squad member. Langdon showed enormous promise and made us a significantly better side this year. Those three acquisitions have been great.

It's revisionism IMO to suggest we haven't able to attract good players over the last few years.

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6 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Geelong has a culture that is better than probably all 17 other clubs, that's undeniable and a testament to their management and leadership.

They've also got some unique attributes that Melbourne-based clubs can't offer (e.g. not being in Melbourne, "country" lifestyle and associated cost of living benefits, etc.).

We're not the only club who missed the finals who could use Jeremy Cameron. You also don't know what's been done by the club behind the scenes: again, the key issue is that the world doesn't work in a way that says we should be able to convince any given player to show up and play for us. 

IMO this is baseless, @Lucifer's Hero.

Suggesting we were May, Lever, Langdon or Tomlinson's "only option left" is ridiculous and unfair. Suggesting the only players who come here don't "really want to play for us" is ridiculous and unfair. 

Complaining about paying "overs" is also unfair. How do you think Carlton has attracted Saad and Williams? Bucketloads of cash! Almost every club, if not every club, pays "overs" to attract A-grade talent from other clubs.

May was in AA form this year. Lever is a previous AA squad member. Langdon showed enormous promise and made us a significantly better side this year. Those three acquisitions have been great.

It's revisionism IMO to suggest we haven't able to attract good players over the last few years.

I don't believe in perpetual fairy tales either TU but when it comes to 'needs based' recruiting there couldn't be a more obvious target that suits the bill more perfectly for us in the now (2021/22) than Cameron.  We are also in an ideal window and a perfect fit for him as well.  

We should, at the very least, be throwing our hat in the ring and getting down and dirty with his player manager even IF the door is ajar a smidgen.  A KF will be the thing that turns the fortunes around at the MFC.  We are on the cusp just as the Tigers were in 2016, subject to topping up with a few extras.

I'd be kicking it down even if it wasn't ajar until the manager boarded up the doors & windows.

Edited by Rusty Nails
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12 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We like to think we are a destination club but we aren't.  Some recent players joining from other clubs (Lever, May, Langdon, Tomlinson) is because we pay 'overs' or were their only option left.  I have a similar sense of the names being mentioned for us this year.

Will wait and see what deals we get done this year and hope that anyone who joins does so because they really want to play for us.

I find it very frustrating that Carlton and Saints are attracting very good players.  They have the same or better 'premiership' window.  One has to wonder what player managers are telling their players about different clubs and where they direct them.

Have to go big to get big LH.  The next step after landing a Langdon, May & Lever (Lever the only player we paid overs for from those three imo) is to land a super big fish (yes for overs on either the $ and/or the term a la Buddy) and standard fair for the others needed to fill other needs.  Lessor lights can't be expecting past remuneration given the new lower revenue base and won't be receiving it (in the main) with 2021+ contracts either in a post covid world.

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15 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We like to think we are a destination club but we aren't.  Some recent players joining from other clubs (Lever, May, Langdon, Tomlinson) is because we pay 'overs' or were their only option left.  I have a similar sense of the names being mentioned for us this year.

Will wait and see what deals we get done this year and hope that anyone who joins does so because they really want to play for us.

I find it very frustrating that Carlton and Saints are attracting very good players.  They have the same or better 'premiership' window.  One has to wonder what player managers are telling their players about different clubs and where they direct them.

Lever was the one who came to us when he had other options IMO. We paid him handsomely but I think other clubs would've too.

May was  good get but it was a marriage of convenience. Langdon and Tomlinson are certainly guys we were most desperate for.

But all of the Saints recruits last year fit that same bill. They backed up stupid money and picks for Hill. Gave Dougal Howard a big pay day. Zak Jones was hardly a guy teams were desperate for. And Butler was off to Carlton until they signed Betts. The Saints might be about to land Caldwell, but could also be about to lose him to Essendon who roll out a far bigger offer.

Carlton are also at the stage of their rebuild were they are desirable but again they are backing up the cash big time. If these 2 recruits don't work out they'll be back down the pecking order.

The only true destination clubs from the Victorian clubs have been Hawthorn during their run, Geelong for lifestyle, Richmond signing Lynch and at times Collingwood - but they've always struggled to land the biggest fish.

It's sustained success, wealth and off field connections that make a Vic club a destination. Otherwise there's just too much competition.

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Lever was the one who came to us when he had other options IMO. We paid him handsomely but I think other clubs would've too.

May was  good get but it was a marriage of convenience. Langdon and Tomlinson are certainly guys we were most desperate for.

But all of the Saints recruits last year fit that same bill. They backed up stupid money and picks for Hill. Gave Dougal Howard a big pay day. Zak Jones was hardly a guy teams were desperate for. And Butler was off to Carlton until they signed Betts. The Saints might be about to land Caldwell, but could also be about to lose him to Essendon who roll out a far bigger offer.

Carlton are also at the stage of their rebuild were they are desirable but again they are backing up the cash big time. If these 2 recruits don't work out they'll be back down the pecking order.

The only true destination clubs from the Victorian clubs have been Hawthorn during their run, Geelong for lifestyle, Richmond signing Lynch and at times Collingwood - but they've always struggled to land the biggest fish.

It's sustained success, wealth and off field connections that make a Vic club a destination. Otherwise there's just too much competition.

Another factor in this i think is the anxiety around membership numbers. teams will be desperate to sign notable recruits and sell hope for 2021 to ensure members, particularly victorian don't re-consider buying a membership if they can't get to as many games as they'd like next year depending on the situation with Covid. i think Carlton in part are considering that with their hard push for big ish name recruits. although williams and Saad are obviously also going to make them better on the field as well.

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52 minutes ago, Redleg said:

I have suggested chasing Jordan Clark a few times and now Freo have names him as a target to return home, as he is apparently unhappy at the Cats. IMO he would be a good player to chase. 

yes, he would be a good get

it's pretty rare for interstate kids to go from one vic club to another tho? most tend to go 'home' - the one exception i can think of off the top of my head is james aish, the sa boy who was recruited by the bears, was desperate to go to the filth, and then was shipped to freo last year

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Might end up something like this.

Out - Preuss , Jetta, TMac ,OMac

In - Brown, Smith, Phillips, 2nd round pick.

Gives us some more outside run , a big forward target and a kid to develop.

 

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15 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Have to go big to get big LH. 

I understand the attraction of this philosophy but I think for us it's flawed.

We have some very good players.  Petracca, Gawn, May and Oliver are very top shelf, they have few equals in the AFL system.  We have some good support players - Langdon, Lever, Viney, Salem and Fritsch would walk into any AFL team.  Harmes, Brayshaw, Weideman and Tomlinson are good players.  We have some very promising youth - Jackson, Pickett, Rivers and Petty will all be long term and good players.

But from here we fall off the cliff.  Our last 6 or 7 players just don't contribute enough.  Players like Hannan, Melksham, Hunt, Hibberd, ANB, AVB and other fringe players just don't contribute enough often enough and leave it to too few to do too much.  You can debate where I've put players but you get the drift.

We could put all our eggs into another "star" but I think we'd be much better to try and spread that money amongst 3 or 4 solid consistent role players who support the very solid base we have.  Brown will cost half of Cameron and provide much more than half the value. Smith and Phillips won't cost a lot but are significant improvements on what we have.  There will be others opportunities as well.

This addresses the weaknesses of our team where adding another "big" just doesn't because we'd still have too many who are non contributors.

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42 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I understand the attraction of this philosophy but I think for us it's flawed.

We have some very good players.  Petracca, Gawn, May and Oliver are very top shelf, they have few equals in the AFL system.  We have some good support players - Langdon, Lever, Viney, Salem and Fritsch would walk into any AFL team.  Harmes, Brayshaw, Weideman and Tomlinson are good players.  We have some very promising youth - Jackson, Pickett, Rivers and Petty will all be long term and good players.

But from here we fall off the cliff.  Our last 6 or 7 players just don't contribute enough.  Players like Hannan, Melksham, Hunt, Hibberd, ANB, AVB and other fringe players just don't contribute enough often enough and leave it to too few to do too much.  You can debate where I've put players but you get the drift.

We could put all our eggs into another "star" but I think we'd be much better to try and spread that money amongst 3 or 4 solid consistent role players who support the very solid base we have.  Brown will cost half of Cameron and provide much more than half the value. Smith and Phillips won't cost a lot but are significant improvements on what we have.  There will be others opportunities as well.

This addresses the weaknesses of our team where adding another "big" just doesn't because we'd still have too many who are non contributors.

Agreed. The core is strong and reminds me of Richmond's side from 2013-2016. Elite core with not enough support or system around it. Role players is the way to go and then strengthen the system over summer.

Reckon Hibberd can give us one-two more good season(s). Melksham could be an extra half back flanker back up, but I wouldn't have him in my team every week.

Hibberd/Lockhart - May - Lever

Smith - Tomlinson/Petty - Salem

Phillips - Oliver - Langdon

Fritsch - Weideman - Jackson

Pickett - Brown - Petracca

Gawn - Viney - Brayshaw

Harmes - Rivers - Jack Higgins - ? small pressure forward / or can we get back into the 1st round (McRae)

The forward balance is probably out still in this line up, but there's good run and carry, there's a bit more class in there by playing Fritsch up the ground, Smith, Salem. I wouldn't mind trying Salem at half forward and occasionally switching Fritsch to half back. 

Defensive system certainly got better this year. Our forwardline is a mess IMO, and I hope Yze can reconstruct it to ensure we get bang for buck out of midfield.

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22 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I don't believe in perpetual fairy tales either TU but when it comes to 'needs based' recruiting there couldn't be a more obvious target that suits the bill more perfectly for us in the now (2021/22) than Cameron.  We are also in an ideal window and a perfect fit for him as well.  

We should, at the very least, be throwing our hat in the ring and getting down and dirty with his player manager even IF the door is ajar a smidgen.  A KF will be the thing that turns the fortunes around at the MFC.  We are on the cusp just as the Tigers were in 2016, subject to topping up with a few extras.

I'd be kicking it down even if it wasn't ajar until the manager boarded up the doors & windows.

Maybe we did, and he said "I'm only leaving GWS to go to Geelong".

Who knows.

The main point is I don't think it's wise or reasonable to get upset or frustrated when our name doesn't come up when the media discusses other players.

5 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I understand the attraction of this philosophy but I think for us it's flawed.

We have some very good players.  Petracca, Gawn, May and Oliver are very top shelf, they have few equals in the AFL system.  We have some good support players - Langdon, Lever, Viney, Salem and Fritsch would walk into any AFL team.  Harmes, Brayshaw, Weideman and Tomlinson are good players.  We have some very promising youth - Jackson, Pickett, Rivers and Petty will all be long term and good players.

But from here we fall off the cliff.  Our last 6 or 7 players just don't contribute enough.  Players like Hannan, Melksham, Hunt, Hibberd, ANB, AVB and other fringe players just don't contribute enough often enough and leave it to too few to do too much.  You can debate where I've put players but you get the drift.

We could put all our eggs into another "star" but I think we'd be much better to try and spread that money amongst 3 or 4 solid consistent role players who support the very solid base we have.  Brown will cost half of Cameron and provide much more than half the value. Smith and Phillips won't cost a lot but are significant improvements on what we have.  There will be others opportunities as well.

This addresses the weaknesses of our team where adding another "big" just doesn't because we'd still have too many who are non contributors.

Agree re: our strategy.

But I think the general idea that you often have to pay "overs" to attract A-grade talent is correct, and IMO the argument that we pay "overs" too often is silly.

Back to your post - I'm 100% in agreement that we don't need to find an elite player. We already have them. What we need is improvement from our group as a unit (no amount of trading or drafting is going to fix that), and improvement in our bottom 6.

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I have suggested chasing Jordan Clark a few times and now Freo have names him as a target to return home, as he is apparently unhappy at the Cats. IMO he would be a good player to chase. 
However we really need a couple of Parfitt types who can grab the ball and run and break lines setting up play.

Edited by Redleg
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On 10/15/2020 at 12:11 PM, Hannibal Inc. said:

Richmond are very well coached and play well as a team, but they have some ordinary personnel.  Far more ordinary than the great teams of the past.

Btw, I'd get the ''sounds'' in your head checked.

 

Clutching at straws. They're in another grand final. Their system is one of the best we've seen and would challenge any of those superstar teams you're talking about. 

The definition of a star team.

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OUT: Preuss (GWS), Hannan (WB), OMcDonald (Hawks/Dogs), TMcDonald (Dons), Neal-Bullen (Freo), Jetta (Pies), (Chandler? -del)

IN: Ratugolea/Wright, Phillips/ISmith, JClark, small forward (Ronke, Aarts, Higgins)

yes plz

+ i'm big on narkle & witherden but thats a lot of ins and Clark seems more gettable?

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anyone know much of Blakely from Freo, been put up for trade.  6'2' HB. could be good cover for HB?

from footwire:

Connor Blakely signs a three-year contract extension to remain at the Dockers until the end of 2022.

"Connor's size, athleticism and running ability, as well his ability to play half-back and also develop as an inside midfielder … we see that as a really strong component to our mix," Fremantle list manager Mark Micallef said.

Blakely, 23, is one of the club's most promising young ball-winners, but has endured a 2019 campaign stunted by injury and missed the first eight matches with a hamstring issue.

However, he has made a strong return and is on track for a fourth successive season of averaging more than 20 disposals per match across both half-back and through the midfield.

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6 hours ago, Turner said:

OUT: Preuss (GWS), Hannan (WB), OMcDonald (Hawks/Dogs), TMcDonald (Dons), Neal-Bullen (Freo), Jetta (Pies), (Chandler? -del)

IN: Ratugolea/Wright, Phillips/ISmith, JClark, small forward (Ronke, Aarts, Higgins)

yes plz

+ i'm big on narkle & witherden but thats a lot of ins and Clark seems more gettable?

Ratugolea/Wright will not improve us.  Wright is uncompetitive and Ratugolea is way to inconsistent.  I think both are a little soft also particularly Wright 

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8 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

 

Clutching at straws. They're in another grand final. Their system is one of the best we've seen and would challenge any of those superstar teams you're talking about. 

The definition of a star team.

Are you saying the system is great or the team is great or both?

I reckon their system, driven by their elite core, is what holds it all together.

Edited by A F
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1 hour ago, DubDee said:

anyone know much of Blakely from Freo, been put up for trade.  6'2' HB. could be good cover for HB?

from footwire:

Connor Blakely signs a three-year contract extension to remain at the Dockers until the end of 2022.

"Connor's size, athleticism and running ability, as well his ability to play half-back and also develop as an inside midfielder … we see that as a really strong component to our mix," Fremantle list manager Mark Micallef said.

Blakely, 23, is one of the club's most promising young ball-winners, but has endured a 2019 campaign stunted by injury and missed the first eight matches with a hamstring issue.

However, he has made a strong return and is on track for a fourth successive season of averaging more than 20 disposals per match across both half-back and through the midfield.

If he comes Langdon will leave. Big no

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41 minutes ago, BW511 said:

If he comes Langdon will leave. Big no

Why’s that? What’s the bad blood between them. 

Just on the Richmond discussion I think their best trait is purely teamwork driven by a good system and game plan. I think they also have a strong “squad goals” mentality where everyone who comes in just does their job. I hate them but I have so much admiration for their determination. I dream of the day Melbourne will show that much fighting spirit consistently. 

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10 minutes ago, Pates said:

Why’s that? What’s the bad blood between them. 

Just on the Richmond discussion I think their best trait is purely teamwork driven by a good system and game plan. I think they also have a strong “squad goals” mentality where everyone who comes in just does their job. I hate them but I have so much admiration for their determination. I dream of the day Melbourne will show that much fighting spirit consistently. 

Both had eyes for the same lady. Langdons girlfriend.

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13 hours ago, A F said:

Are you saying the system is great or the team is great or both?

I reckon their system, driven by their elite core, is what holds it all together.

It's clearly both.

And aside from their elite core, Richmond's support players are by far and away better than ours and many opposition sides, and to me it's clear that certain posters on here don't rate their support players as much as I do.

Grimes, Edwards, Prestia, Vlastuin, Baker, etc.

They're quality.

 

 

Edited by JimmyGadson
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    HOME AWAY FROM HOME by The Oracle

    The Demons return to the MCG on Saturday night (albeit for an away game) for the first time since mid-May when they beat the Blues. At the time, they were riding high, undefeated and celebrated by the football world. In the interim, they lost to two teams that occupy the bottom six, beaten two top four teams in front of empty or near empty stadiums and somehow fallen out of sight in the AFL bubble despite retaining top of the table status. And in a strange twist, the mantle of the league’s

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