Gone off a cliff

[olisik 4,060]

Why do we always seem to have players go off a cliff in terms of output. In the past few years we have had players like TMac and Jayden Hunt who both looked like stars regress into list cloggers. The same is happening to Harmes.

Usually players are meant to improve over time however at the Dees most seem to go backwards. How does one get worse at what they do?

I struggle to understand this, looking at guys like Salem, Lever, Bradshaw ect all look to be taking that same path off the cliff also. WHAT IS GOING ON???

[Elegt 872]

1 minute ago, olisik said:

Why do we always seem to have players go off a cliff in terms of output. In the past few years we have had players like TMac and Jayden Hunt who both looked like stars regress into list cloggers. The same is happening to Harmes.

Usually players are meant to improve over time however at the Dees most seem to go backwards. How does one get worse at what they do?

I struggle to understand this, looking at guys like Salem, Lever, Bradshaw ect all look to be taking that same path off the cliff also. WHAT IS GOING ON???

Angus brayshaw looked like a future brownlow medallist in his first year. Tough, quick, great kick and great marking ability. Now he is the complete opposite: lazy, one way running, soft tackles, no agility, no hunger, poor kick, can't mark, refuses to man up

[adonski 9,102]

Salem, Lever both had decent years

Harmes and to a lesser extent Brayshaw played out of position 

T Mac is anyones guess

[adonski 9,102]

I reckon we're similar to Richmond when they kept finishing 9th. Have a few obvious guns, but the bottom 6-8 that play every week are absolute squids. I think it's more about addressing the bottom handful of players (replacing C graders with B graders) than it is landing a big fish like Williams, etc.

[old dee 22,805]

5 minutes ago, adonski said:

Salem, Lever both had decent years

Harmes and to a lesser extent Brayshaw played out of position 

T Mac is anyones guess

I think Tmac is carrying an injury.

[Gorgoroth 12,305]

Harmes best football was when he shut down the opposition best player and then won it himself. I’m still stunned that 2 years later we haven’t used him to do so since.

[BW511 2,236]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

I think Tmac is carrying an injury.

And an extra 10kg (allegedly)

[Soidee 1,496]

It’s culture, toxic MFC culture.  Brendan McCartney took Harmes under his wing and Harmes became a better player.  So what does the MFC do....bring in Richardson.  Can anyone tell me his value so far?

[chookrat 3,774]

1 hour ago, adonski said:

I reckon we're similar to Richmond when they kept finishing 9th. Have a few obvious guns, but the bottom 6-8 that play every week are absolute squids. I think it's more about addressing the bottom handful of players (replacing C graders with B graders) than it is landing a big fish like Williams, etc.

Agree we are similar to Richmond around the time the kept finishing ninth, but think it is more about continuity and confidence across the team, and everyone being on the same page with what is required during the match. Goodwin has talked about maturity for much of the past couple of seasons and his most recent language re developing a ruthless edge is that next step for our team, and I think one that must be player driven. Personally I think we are in good hands and will look back on the first 3-4 years under Goodwin as a period where the list, coaches and admin established our culture on the foundations set by Jackson and Roos.

[Hellish Inferno 992]

Loss of love for the game/job?? Low motivation.

There also seems to be an obsession in the industry to focus so much on adding more strings to a player's bow, to offer flexibility of course, but at the severe detriment to the strengths they had in the first place

[Spit Demon 58]

25 minutes ago, Soidee said:

It’s culture, toxic MFC culture.  Brendan McCartney took Harmes under his wing and Harmes became a better player.  So what does the MFC do....bring in Richardson.  Can anyone tell me his value so far?

Perhaps we should start a petition to get Roosy back (and let him do all of the hiring and firing too!!!).

[Demon Dynasty 15,185]

3 hours ago, Elegt said:

Angus brayshaw looked like a future brownlow medallist in his first year. Tough, quick, great kick and great marking ability. Now he is the complete opposite: lazy, one way running, soft tackles, no agility, no hunger, poor kick, can't mark, refuses to man up

Regrets signing a four year deal?  Maybe changed his mind and was hoping to play with bro at the Dockers earlier than 2023?  Biding time till then and picking and choosing how much effort will go in to the next few years?  Self preservation if you like.  Enjoys playing through the middle.  Hates playing anywhere else?  Picks and chooses when he goes based on where he's being played and in what role?  Who knows.

We may have a few who sook it up if they don't get there own way but i'm just speculating from outside the four walls.

This all comes down to screening players at selection IMO and making sure we are picking players of character who truly want to take their game to it's highest level.  Only picking those who show a genuine drive and taste for  wanting to taste individual and (most importantly) team success.

We also have too many quiet types imv.  We need more outspoken players who will speak up on the field and urge others on to greater heights & perfection.  Players who will do all the team things including shepherd, block, run to support, run back to defend, remonstrate more for frees, intentional OOB decisions.  Pushing for that one little edge over their opponent and extracting the max they can out of every contest.

I just don't see enough of this in our blokes.  A few exceptions like May and Ed but most just seem to be happy jogging around picking up their weekly pay cheque and doing just enough to get the odd game.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[praha 10,267]

3 hours ago, adonski said:

I reckon we're similar to Richmond when they kept finishing 9th. Have a few obvious guns, but the bottom 6-8 that play every week are absolute squids. I think it's more about addressing the bottom handful of players (replacing C graders with B graders) than it is landing a big fish like Williams, etc.

Richmond was finishing 9th a lot in the 2000s and bottomed out hard before Hardwick arrived. Even then it took 3 years of rebuild 3 years of finals and another poor season before they hit their mark. By the same logic and time we should win the flag in 2021 lol 

Question is, are we 2016 Richmond or 2009 Richmond? Dangerous for us now to be lingering mid table because Goodwin has dumped our top draft picks. Lose our last two games and we may be potentially gifting North a top 5 pick. But anyway that's beside the point. History shows that teams that linger mid table for too long either stay there long term (North, Essendon) or end up crashing out hard (North again, Freo, Sydney now). 

Big question as Healy asked the other night: Are we an underperforming team or are we just average? 

[Demon Dynasty 15,185]

2 hours ago, Gorgoroth said:

Harmes best football was when he shut down the opposition best player and then won it himself. I’m still stunned that 2 years later we haven’t used him to do so since.

It's just another Goody Goody num num.  He finds a player's strengths, in fact sometimes he seems to find the team's strengths in terms of playing certain players in particular roles / positions that suit.  This might last for a week or two.  Maybe even three.  And yes there will be required changes for match ups or injuries depending on the week & the opponent.  But how many change ups can a player / team handle before the wheels start falling off?  And far too often we've seen far too many of these madding changes under this bloke.

I heard an interview with a Docker player after their win last night.  And one of the question was "what are you enjoying most about this year under Longmuir?" or something to that effect.  His response along the line of...   "being able to play the same position most weeks allowing me to settle in and learn the role.  That's given me alot of confidence when i run out each week".  How do you reckon our blokes are coping here under SG's constant change ups?

[layzie 28,474]

There's two things that have been apparent with every Melbourne team for the last decade and at various moments over that time we've repeatedly heard these lines and it's getting boring:

- Don't hurt opposition by foot

- Gap between best and worst is too big. 

Please fix.

[monoccular 16,008]

2 hours ago, Soidee said:

It’s culture, toxic MFC culture.  Brendan McCartney took Harmes under his wing and Harmes became a better player.  So what does the MFC do....bring in Richardson.  Can anyone tell me his value so far?

We did beat the Saints for the first time in yonks 

2 hours ago, Hellish Inferno said:

Loss of love for the game/job?? Low motivation.

There also seems to be an obsession in the industry to focus so much on adding more strings to a player's bow, to offer flexibility of course, but at the severe detriment to the strengths they had in the first place

Harmes just one classic example.  
A strong tagger who could hurt on the turnover, something we have lacked for ages ... now a half back of average quality. 

[Kent 2,574]

12 hours ago, old dee said:

I think Tmac is carrying an injury.

Then why bloody well play him

Jones the same 

[bobby1554 1,132]

9 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

It's just another Goody Goody num num.  He finds a player's strengths, in fact sometimes he seems to find the team's strengths in terms of playing certain players in particular roles / positions that suit.  This might last for a week or two.  Maybe even three.  And yes there will be required changes for match ups or injuries depending on the week & the opponent.  But how many change ups can a player / team handle before the wheels start falling off?  And far too often we've seen far too many of these madding changes under this bloke.

I heard an interview with a Docker player after their win last night.  And one of the question was "what are you enjoying most about this year under Longmuir?" or something to that effect.  His response along the line of...   "being able to play the same position most weeks allowing me to settle in and learn the role.  That's given me alot of confidence when i run out each week".  How do you reckon our blokes are coping here under SG's constant change ups?

Sorry Rusty, but I do not agree with you here. The players have pretty much played the same role week in week out. Now whether that’s in the wrong role is open to discussion. In fact it is a major complaint from most that Goodwin doesn’t change things. Have said it before, the reason we are where we are is simply we are not good enough as a collective group. The bottom 6-10 players picked each week are just not top AFL standard. The same can be said about 10 other clubs.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

11 hours ago, chookrat said:

Agree we are similar to Richmond around the time the kept finishing ninth, but think it is more about continuity and confidence across the team, and everyone being on the same page with what is required during the match. Goodwin has talked about maturity for much of the past couple of seasons and his most recent language re developing a ruthless edge is that next step for our team, and I think one that must be player driven. Personally I think we are in good hands and will look back on the first 3-4 years under Goodwin as a period where the list, coaches and admin established our culture on the foundations set by Jackson and Roos.

I am sorry Chook but that is just rubbish. There is no evidence to support what you say is happening. Quite the contrary.

[Gouga 496]

14 hours ago, olisik said:

Why do we always seem to have players go off a cliff in terms of output. In the past few years we have had players like TMac and Jayden Hunt who both looked like stars regress into list cloggers. The same is happening to Harmes.

Usually players are meant to improve over time however at the Dees most seem to go backwards. How does one get worse at what they do?

I struggle to understand this, looking at guys like Salem, Lever, Bradshaw ect all look to be taking that same path off the cliff also. WHAT IS GOING ON???

Thousands of AFL players over the years have shown promise but can't sustain it. It's a fact of life. It's not a knock on those players, but only the top echelon can do it year after year. I think we forget that.

Tmac (170 games over 10 years), Jetta (153 games over 12 years), Harmes (104 games over 7 years), Neal-Bullen (77 games over 6 years) and Hunt (71 games over 7 years) have probably done well to contribute as much as they have over the years. Notwithstanding, they are the precise players that need to be turned over in the next 1-2 years. 

Are Salem, Brayshaw and Lever future 200 game players? Odds are against them. Of the 1,350 odd players that have pulled on a Melbourne jumper since 1987, only 25 have played 200 games or more. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Gouga

[Lord Travis 10,141]

Development. We are poor at it. Fin.

[Age 379]

8 minutes ago, Gouga said:

Are Salem, Brayshaw and Lever future 200 game players? Odds are against them. Of the 1,350 odd players that have pulled on a Melbourne jumper since 1987, only 25 have played 200 games or more. 

Is there somewhere I can check the other clubs? For the oldest club in it, this seems ridiculously low!

Is this then an indictment on the players, our development or the club altogether although the latter two go hand in hand and we all know we are probably the worst in the comp at this!

[Gouga 496]

1 minute ago, Age said:

Is there somewhere I can check the other clubs? For the oldest club in it, this seems ridiculously low!

Is this then an indictment on the players, our development or the club altogether although the latter two go hand in hand and we all know we are probably the worst in the comp at this!

This is the link to the Melbourne list: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/alltime/melbourne.html

You can navigate back to the main menu to find the same list for the other clubs. 

P.S. "AFL Tables" is my favourite website.  

[Coq au vin 754]

11 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

It's just another Goody Goody num num.  He finds a player's strengths, in fact sometimes he seems to find the team's strengths in terms of playing certain players in particular roles / positions that suit.  This might last for a week or two.  Maybe even three.  And yes there will be required changes for match ups or injuries depending on the week & the opponent.  But how many change ups can a player / team handle before the wheels start falling off?  And far too often we've seen far too many of these madding changes under this bloke.

I heard an interview with a Docker player after their win last night.  And one of the question was "what are you enjoying most about this year under Longmuir?" or something to that effect.  His response along the line of...   "being able to play the same position most weeks allowing me to settle in and learn the role.  That's given me alot of confidence when i run out each week".  How do you reckon our blokes are coping here under SG's constant change ups?

You are stating the opposite of what most demonlanders have been complaining about with Goodwin . The prevailing view is that he is too stubborn and never changes anything!

Edited September 8, 2020 by Coq au vin

[Coq au vin 754]

15 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Development. We are poor at it. Fin.

Nonsense. Molly-coddling stars is unnecessary. Do you think Buddy Franklin needed ‘development’ or Wayne Carey?