POSTGAME: Rd 15 vs Sydney

[drdrake 3,037]

Our midfield dont play team midfield it is all individual.  We never seen any blocks making space.  It starts the ball goes up we should know where Max is tapping it but there seems to be no communication from max to tell mids where he is trying to hit to.  Then ball comes out our mids play like u9s everyone goes to the Ball and wants the ball.

Again no one tries to block to create space for an easy exit, we allow pressure on the ball carrier 1m flick handball, repeat 2 more times before turnover our a bomb kick out.  Individual effort not team effort.

Forward line is the same, no one works for their team mate they all go to the same spot and compete for same mark.  No blocks to create space no front and square.  

Seems we work on team defensive structure when we dont have the ball, but as soon as we get it we have no sense of the selfless acts to help out team mates.

Credit to the backline they do work together to protect each other.

 

[Superunknown 3,311]

Quite aside all the list changes, kicking coaching etc etc you've all identified, in my mind we ought consider making Steven May captain.

I'm not down with the laughy jokey pally captain. I want a fire breathing dragon who doesn't accept mediocrity and who bleeds for a win.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 minute ago, drdrake said:

Our midfield dont play team midfield it is all individual.  We never seen any blocks making space.  It starts the ball goes up we should know where Max is tapping it but there seems to be no communication from max to tell mids where he is trying to hit to.  Then ball comes out our mids play like u9s everyone goes to the Ball and wants the ball.

Again no one tries to block to create space for an easy exit, we allow pressure on the ball carrier 1m flick handball, repeat 2 more times before turnover our a bomb kick out.  Individual effort not team effort.

Forward line is the same, no one works for their team mate they all go to the same spot and compete for same mark.  No blocks to create space no front and square.  

Seems we work on team defensive structure when we dont have the ball, but as soon as we get it we have no sense of the selfless acts to help out team mates.

Credit to the backline they do work together to protect each other.

 

My belief as well and it is what sucks us all in everytime. Individual performances by players playing as individuals. It is a team with quite a lot of goodish players but not a good team. Something about the mix is not right. Brayshaw and Viney got to the top by getting the ball at everyonelse expense. never a thought to being a link in a team. Honestly how many players are non tradeable?

[leave it to deever 15,317]

12 hours ago, Roger Mellie said:

we relatively are high on footy talent but scrape the bottom of the barrel when it comes to footy intelligence. Then there are the selection issues.

Used to think do as well but maybe we are all biased.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

3 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Our midfield dont play team midfield it is all individual. 

 

Really good point, doc.

I've always felt that our midfield mix CAN co-exist... but then you read the above, and it becomes clear that they just don't play for each other enough.  Both Viney and Oliver are midfield bulls who end up going for the same ball too often.  Or, if they let the other one go for it, they are still too close to the contest, so if we lose the ball they have a loose man to fire a handball too so they can run away from the contest under little to no pressure.

That's also on our midfield coach as well.  Why aren't they working through that with them?  Or looking at the set ups?  We have an A grade ruck man who is out of sync with his midfield at the moment, and it is taking away one of our major strengths, which is winning clearances and contested ball.

We need to lift in this area, quickly, before the season is shot for good.

[Fat Tony 4,399]

3 minutes ago, Die Hard Demon said:

You’re first reason is why I can never see Melbourne under Goodwin being a successful side. We just rely WAY too heavily on our best players getting us across the line. Did you watch Richmond on Wed night? Dusty had a stinker.. but they have 21 other blokes who play a role & play it well. Last week we don’t beat Saints if Trac, May & Gawn don’t play. We’re so predictable.. Shut down our best & we go to water. 

Martin had a quiet night with only 11 possessions, but he went at 72% efficiency. Yesterday Petracca and Oliver were prolific but both went at just over 50%. My point is that it’s the turnovers that kill us, because when they happen all our players are running hard forward.

Martin’s bad games are about not winning the ball, not poor skill. In their bad games, our players still win the ball but they then give it up, which is worse. 

[Mazer Rackham 14,969]

41 minutes ago, Kent said:

what the hell was wrong with Petracca last night?

He was wondering how he could go back in time and prevent the McCartin/Petracca draft thing

[frankie_d 1,407]

12 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

Quite aside all the list changes, kicking coaching etc etc you've all identified, in my mind we ought consider making Steven May captain.

I'm not down with the laughy jokey pally captain. I want a fire breathing dragon who doesn't accept mediocrity and who bleeds for a win.

Couldn't agree more. Said so a while back. He is a very good footballer, hates losing, leads the backline, provides feedback, and is a mean SOB.

Viney to the forward pocket, Max - recover from the knee, Harmes and Angus to the midfield. OMac never again. TMac probably never again.

[layzie 28,688]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

As soon as I saw the weather report I knew we’d get done.

As soon as there’s a slight breeze we fall to pieces.

 

We are honestly a very dumb football team when it comes to windy conditions and using a breeze. Seriously, a 45 metre shot on a 45 degree angle from Tomlinson was the breaking point for me. These are not 'smart' looks at goal and I really feel like when we take a shot in these conditions our guys are more just hoping for the best than confident. Only shot I can let off was Brown's early one, he knew what he was doing by going right stick but the wind didn't bring it back enough and hit the post.

It's akin to wet weather footy in that there is a different way to play it. 

[Die Hard Demon 1,152]

4 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Martin had a quiet night with only 11 possessions, but he went at 72% efficiency. Yesterday Petracca and Oliver were prolific but both went at just over 50%. My point is that it’s the turnovers that kill us, because when they happen all our players are running hard forward.

Martin’s bad games are about not winning the ball, not poor skill. In their bad games, our players still win the ball but they then give it up, which is worse. 

Yeah I get what you're saying and that's very true. They certainly killed any momentum we may have been building.. Although I still think we do rely on those players having near perfect games to get us across the line. Maybe the weight of expectation to get us rolling affects their ability to perform consistently well. We don't want what's happening to Patrick Cripps to happen to Tracc & Clarry. 

[Mazer Rackham 14,969]

9 hours ago, kev martin said:

What kind of disposals are they?

If flat kicks, they don't get above the defender.

The dinks are made for interceptors. 

At training last year they were emphasising the trajectory were the balls gains height with a concave flight and then drops quickly on the head of the player.

They are not skilled enough to do it with pressure. 

Perhaps the coaches expectations are too high, and they don't train to their abilities. 

God almighty. Tell me this isn't true. "Concave flight" ? "Drops quickly" ??? These things are optical illusions. There's no way a drop punt, especially a short pass, can get enough backspin to seriously affect either of those things. It's not golf.

As a result we have mastered the high floating kick which forces our boys to stop in their tracks while the ball drops "on their heads" -- ever heard of kicking to advantage? -- while the opposition dash off a note of appreciation to our coaching box, post it, have a quick breather, and swarm all over our boy waiting patiently for the ball to descend from the heavens.

The contrast was stark last night ... Swans were dishing out hard flat kicks that looked like the old Tony Greig tracer bullet in comparison.

"Drops quickly". God help us.

[drdrake 3,037]

18 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Martin had a quiet night with only 11 possessions, but he went at 72% efficiency. Yesterday Petracca and Oliver were prolific but both went at just over 50%. My point is that it’s the turnovers that kill us, because when they happen all our players are running hard forward.

Martin’s bad games are about not winning the ball, not poor skill. In their bad games, our players still win the ball but they then give it up, which is worse. 

I would take 11 Dustin Martin Possessions over 30+ from Oliver.  Dustin usually puts the ball into a dangerous position, something our mids need to learn. Petracca was doing this but the last few weeks when he has gone into the midfield he catches our midfield disease of over handballing and turnover kicks.  It is almost like someone has told him to share the ball more and not take on the player.

I think that 50% is a bit high, take out the 1m metre handball that hits a target and both would have been around 20% especially by Foot.  Petracca has a massive ball drop which means on windy days he will struggle, he just lets the ball go to high, elite kicks guide the ball a lot closer to the foot before release.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

9 hours ago, A F said:

I'm just hoping the ridicule directed towards the club makes the players realise you have to bring 4 quarters of football every week.

Not too much to hope for, hey?

We have to get ridiculed about 3 or 4 times a year. The message doesn't sink in only lasts a handful of weeks.

[SPC 2,789]

We need to change the midfield mix. I think Oliver, Harmes and perhaps a Salem or throw Pickett in. 

Keep Viney forward, Trac HFF and Brayshaw can have time forward as well. 
 

It is not our strength, it is our greatest weakness now, both in ball winning ability, pressure and disposal.

[Die Hard Demon 1,152]

1 minute ago, SPC said:

We need to change the midfield mix. I think Oliver, Harmes and perhaps a Salem or throw Pickett in. 

Keep Viney forward, Trac HFF and Brayshaw can have time forward as well. 
 

It is not our strength, it is our greatest weakness now, both in ball winning ability, pressure and disposal.

It's not the worst idea. Although it HAS to come down to not being coached / set up correctly around stoppages. Protecting teammates and space is clearly not instinctual from our players. It's see ball get ball and wanting to be the hero. This is a coaching and building good habits fail. Goodwin and the midfield coaches have had years to get it right to no avail. 

[Vipercrunch 2,803]

I can never understand the blaming of our fringe players after a calamity like last night.  Very few players at all would get a pass mark for that performance, but I feel way more let down by the 10 or so players that take home 50% of our salary cap than by the guys that we all know are 18-30th on the list.

Weideman. Melksham. Salem. Lever. Fritsch. Brayshaw. Viney. PETRACCA!!! Oliver.

They were all woeful.  

If our best players turn it up like they did last night, what hope do players like OMac, Spargo and Smith have of changing things?

[Die Hard Demon 1,152]

2 minutes ago, S_T said:

I can never understand the blaming of our fringe players after a calamity like last night.  Very few players at all would get a pass mark for that performance, but I feel way more let down by the 10 or so players that take home 50% of our salary cap than by the guys that we all know are 18-30th on the list.

Weideman. Melksham. Salem. Lever. Fritsch. Brayshaw. Viney. PETRACCA!!! Oliver.

They were all woeful.  

If our best players turn it up like they did last night, what hope do players like OMac, Spargo and Smith have of changing things?

Our fringe players are woeful even in our wins. That's the problem.

[drdrake 3,037]

20 minutes ago, SPC said:

We need to change the midfield mix. I think Oliver, Harmes and perhaps a Salem or throw Pickett in. 

Keep Viney forward, Trac HFF and Brayshaw can have time forward as well. 
 

It is not our strength, it is our greatest weakness now, both in ball winning ability, pressure and disposal.

We need to drop this Viney into the Forward line, just because you can tackle doesn't make you a forward, he has zero creativity and will just cause the same chaos that we get in the midfield.

I don't think it is a Brayshaw/Viney thing in our midfield, I reckon it is a Viney/Oliver thing they just get in each others way, both are not clean with their hands at the moment.

As much as you hate to say it, you almost hope Viney takes up his Free agency option and leaves.

Edited September 3, 2020 by drdrake

[cookieboc 607]

13 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Jack Viney is the most selfish footballer in our side. It pains me to admit it. He makes us worse in the middle. He does nothing to support teammates, but constantly rams into packs, even at times where a teammate is in a position to take the ball. His possessions are all grubby. That’s the only word I can use to describe it. The hack kicks, the missed handballs, the spin back into the traffic to prove his strength in breaking a tackle. I’m sick of it. Pull him out of the middle.

for me, Viney is the apple that upsets the cart.

Is the most one dimensional player in the team, doesnt have the ability to influence games nor win them off his own boot.

for mine, his leadership is very much in the same vein as Jones, divisive.

I realise he is the son of a legend but, wouldnt mind seeing what we could get for him in a trade. I feel we are more dynamic with AB, CO and CP in the middle.

[Demon Dynasty 15,367]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I apologise to Max in advance because I love him.  But I am frustrated with some parts of his game.  The 'misdirected' taps I've mentioned earlier.  The other part is lack of handball when he takes a mark or gets a free kick.

9.5 time of 10 he takes the kick.  He almost never hand passes to a runner along side (usually there is no runner alongside) nor does he look for a runner.  The very best ruckman have this in their tool kit.  Not necessarily to be used all the time but it would make Max less predictable if he had it or used it more often.

Our best ball movement is when we have overlap players running forward.  Max hand balling from a mark/free kick would greatly facilitate that.  Kicking it just allows time for the op to set up their defence.  Now Max isn't the best kick going round and often the ball ends up marked by the op. 

I'm not raising this because we lost.  It is the way he and the team play.  When we played more of the play-on-at-all-costs football Max would just take his kick faster.  He didn't handball.  I can only assume it is a coaching direction to go back an kick rather than handball.  

Goldstein nearly always handballs.  Nic Nat and Grundy probably 50/50.

Has anyone else noticed Max's lack of handball vs kicking?

Aside from these game day issues LH, i'm sorry but as good as Maxy is when he's on (not so on of late given injury im guessing) he makes a really poor Captain.

May should be the obvious captain by a country mile.

[drdrake 3,037]

3 minutes ago, Die Hard Demon said:

Our fringe players are woeful even in our wins. That's the problem.

Our fake stars are the problem, winning the ball is great then missing the target deflates the side over and over again.  May is the only player on our side that is A grade, we don't have an A grade midfielder. Until they can clean up their disposals they can not be considered as A grade, if last night was a one off you can say they just had a bad night but every week Oliver, Petracca and co just miss the easy hit up, turn it over, make poor decisions.  We jump on board when it all works but even those games there are horrific turnovers by our so called A graders.

When we play teams with hard body mids we struggle.  The only reason Fremantle won't beat us is if their coach play Fyfe forward and not in the midfield, he will kill us like the Bont did and Fyfe is a lot better player than the Bont.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

Agree re conditions. Everything has to be just right for this team to consistently produce. Their skills go to pieces and the confidence to run disappears.

We have too many players who are all or nothing. Our bottom 10 players will have 1 big game followed by 3 stinkers before being dropped. I know we are a long way off Richmond, but look what you get from their bottom 10, week in, week out. It lays the foundation for the others to work from.

[DeeZee 6,731]

We just don’t have that killer instinct. Don’t want it bad enough .

They are happy playing golf and surfing in the hub.

Should have come out breathing fire against the swans, but what we got was lukewarm.

[SFebes 4,692]

Am I the only one who thinks Viney actually stood back out of the packs a bit last night? Seems like he was just flapping around and not trying? He did have that hit on Rivers but I actually thought he was lifeless last night. Like either a direction to stand back or just not interested, I don't know. I do agree however with posters saying selfish, which I actually think means not the brightest. He really does stuff it all up and as I've always said, a very limited footballer.

[Die Hard Demon 1,152]

17 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Our fake stars are the problem, winning the ball is great then missing the target deflates the side over and over again.  May is the only player on our side that is A grade, we don't have an A grade midfielder. Until they can clean up their disposals they can not be considered as A grade, if last night was a one off you can say they just had a bad night but every week Oliver, Petracca and co just miss the easy hit up, turn it over, make poor decisions.  We jump on board when it all works but even those games there are horrific turnovers by our so called A graders.

When we play teams with hard body mids we struggle.  The only reason Fremantle won't beat us is if their coach play Fyfe forward and not in the midfield, he will kill us like the Bont did and Fyfe is a lot better player than the Bont.

Do you watch much of other teams with these so called "stars" .. The Martin's, Fyfe's, Bont's, Cripps, Dangers' of this world are some of the BIGGEST clanger kings going around. It doesn't seem to hinder their teams ability to win games.