TEAMS: Rd 12 vs Collingwood

[loges 5,988]

We've all seen Vanders turn it over more than we'd like but one thing I've noticed is that he often wins the ball in close under pressure, bangs it on the boot but team mates are on their heels playing behind so the ball lands in the oppositions lap which I"m sure would count as a turnover. Might be a good idea when they see him about to win the ball they get in front.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

Just now, loges said:

We've all seen Vanders turn it over more than we'd like but one thing I've noticed is that he often wins the ball in close under pressure, bangs it on the boot but team mates are on their heels playing behind so the ball lands in the oppositions lap which I"m sure would count as a turnover. Might be a good idea when they see him about to win the ball they get in front.

Averages 3.8 contested disposals, 7 uncontested.

We're not really starting to blame his teammates for his turnovers are we?

[nosoupforme 3,085]

Good to see Viney come back from concussion as he is a big game player,  will be given his all. Lockhart is a good in  to picking up Elliott. Keep him quiet and it will go a long way in winning.  

There will be many that would think that Preuss is a bit underdone. IMO keeps himself in good shape and he won't want to let the boys down.Has a big job to do on Grundy and co with support of course.

Gawn  will be missed  however Preuss will do him proud. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by nosoupforme

[WERRIDEE 5,198]

A pretty strong side on paper same as the Pies. The 2 days less break should stuff them up. Rivers and Hannan very stiff. Vanders and Jones very lucky. The game should be a ripper.

[loges 5,988]

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Averages 3.8 contested disposals, 7 uncontested.

We're not really starting to blame his teammates for his turnovers are we?

When he has to kick under pressure with no time to spot up a teammate you know the ball will drop short so I'm saying get in front, I've seen it several times. I'm not talking about when he's in the clear and turns it over

[Tony Tea 2,784]

Maxy's absence deprives us of the enjoyment of listening to the commentators tie themselves in knots telling us that although Max is playing better, Grundy is playing better and is a better ruckman and a more valuable contributor and an all round more luminous human being.

[The Swimming Dee 1,825]

1 hour ago, adonski said:

Rivers is an Adonis for his age, not sure about that 

Correct, he is already huge and has an AFL ready body. I understand why he was dropped but saying it is due to him being too small is incorrect 

[Bitter but optimistic 21,150]

One thing with VDB is that he's bloody tough. For years we've lacked players who make the opposition look over their shoulders when they hear his footsteps.

[Binmans PA 25,866]

26 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Consistent pressure is fine, but I don't think it adds up to say that because Hannan can drift in and out that vandenBerg doesn't. vandenBerg isn't a consistent contributor either and his clangers, turnovers and kicking efficiency more than undo his good work.

As already mentioned, they're pressure acts numbers don't have a huge difference. I think a lot of what people see in vandenBerg is the image of him rather than the reality at the moment. Not sure if it's reflected glory of his previous good games or just that we all love the hard at it players, but the whole pressure argument doesn't stack up for mine when you look at the whole picture.

All fine to have a game focused on pressure, but when you have players consistently giving the ball away you're evening out that pressure by your own actions.

Just find it strange that if our whole system is built on pressure that we pick a player whose only talent is pressure. Shouldn't that be the base for everyone? It strikes me as a bit like picking a tagger, which isn't really done anymore because teams realized you had to do more than just one specific basic thing.

Sorry, ranting a bit. just frustrated that a team that is STILL lacking in forward connection would drop a player who can provide that but leave in a player who consistently destroys it.

VDB and Hannan are bringing different things to the team though. Hannan has to bring pressure and goals. VDB has to bring pressure. The latter isn't a clean footballer, but I don't think you can count it in pressure numbers necessarily, because for me, it's about the intensity that VDB always brings.

VDB can set the tone of a quarter with one pressure act. Hannan needs to focus on putting four quarters together and then we can talk about his place in the team.

You can't have a pressure forward not hit the scoreboard regularly or fail to lay tackles and continue to keep his position.

Maybe it's unfair, but they bring different things and therefore I really don't think it's a case of Goodwin playing favourites.

[Demonland 64,361]

 

[Binmans PA 25,866]

39 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Consistent pressure is fine, but I don't think it adds up to say that because Hannan can drift in and out that vandenBerg doesn't. vandenBerg isn't a consistent contributor either and his clangers, turnovers and kicking efficiency more than undo his good work.

As already mentioned, they're pressure acts numbers don't have a huge difference. I think a lot of what people see in vandenBerg is the image of him rather than the reality at the moment. Not sure if it's reflected glory of his previous good games or just that we all love the hard at it players, but the whole pressure argument doesn't stack up for mine when you look at the whole picture.

All fine to have a game focused on pressure, but when you have players consistently giving the ball away you're evening out that pressure by your own actions.

Just find it strange that if our whole system is built on pressure that we pick a player whose only talent is pressure. Shouldn't that be the base for everyone? It strikes me as a bit like picking a tagger, which isn't really done anymore because teams realized you had to do more than just one specific basic thing.

Sorry, ranting a bit. just frustrated that a team that is STILL lacking in forward connection would drop a player who can provide that but leave in a player who consistently destroys it.

I should just say on this, I'm watching for how Vanders adds to our system. I've been constantly critical of his disposal, decision making, goal kicking etc, but I've watched him closely this season and I cannot deny that he brings a different intensity. Our system relies on intensity and when he's been out of the team, the intensity is noticeably different. I think he's a bit of a barometre, which is a strange thing to say, because I don't think I've seen an AFL player handball as poorly as he does, but he brings 110% intensity to that one pressure act that cannot be compared with one pressure act of Hannan's.

FWIW, I don't think Hannan particularly adds to our forward connection. 

[Fat Tony 4,348]

Gawn and Jackson aside, we pretty much have our best side available. Hannan and Rivers were a bit stiff and Bennell has fallen out of favour. The fact that Rivers, Jetta, Hannan, Hunt, Bennell and Oscar are fit and not selected is a pretty good sign.

Preuss will have a big task and should really try to hurt Grundy physically.

[binman 37,715]

39 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Kicked a goal and a behind in the last quarter.

 

Fair comment 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

2 minutes ago, A F said:

I should just say on this, I'm watching for how Vanders adds to our system. I've been constantly critical of his disposal, decision making, goal kicking etc, but I've watched him closely this season and I cannot deny that he brings a different intensity. Our system relies on intensity and when he's been out of the team, the intensity is noticeably different. I think he's a bit of a barometre, which is a strange thing to say, because I don't think I've seen an AFL player handball as poorly as he does, but he brings 110% intensity to that one pressure act that cannot be compared with one pressure act of Hannan's.

FWIW, I don't think Hannan particularly adds to our forward connection. 

100% agree on his intensity. That's the thing I love about him. I'm saying though that currently the bad things outweigh the good. The clangers, turnovers and goals given away hurt us more than the intensity helps us IMO.

Hannan ranks 5th for score involvements, 7th for goal assists, 7th for inside 50s and 5th for goals, so reckon you're being a little harsh on him in that regard. (*Based on team averages this year)

[Lord Travis 10,128]

Glad to see Preuss in. Definitely needed for our structure. 

Disappointed to see Rivers and Hannan out ahead of Jones and Vandenburg. Vanders in particular has been straight up ****house this season. Gives up goals by being a stupid fake tough guy and couldn’t hit the side of a barn with his kicking. How he got a 3 year contract as a fringe player who couldn’t get on the park  is the biggest mystery in footy. 

We just need to win this match. Lose and it’s nearly curtains for 2020. Win and we cling on to the back of the pack. Get it done Dees!

[Binmans PA 25,866]

9 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

100% agree on his intensity. That's the thing I love about him. I'm saying though that currently the bad things outweigh the good. The clangers, turnovers and goals given away hurt us more than the intensity helps us IMO.

Fair enough. So who would you bring in to provide that same intensity or better?

9 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Hannan ranks 5th for score involvements, 7th for goal assists, 7th for inside 50s and 5th for goals, so reckon you're being a little harsh on him in that regard. (*Based on team averages this year)

I'd have Melksham, Spargo and Fritsch easily ahead of his for connection. All three get really involved in scoring chains and connect half back to half forward, to deep forward when in form. 

Yeah, Spargo's only done it once this season, but he did it consistently in 2018. I expect he'll continue to be involved in scoring chains. 

We've then got Weideman, McDonald and then Petracca and hopefully Viney resting forward. He misses out because there's too many ahead of him. 

He, Melksham, Bennell and Fritsch need to bring much more pressure at the drop of the ball and in the contest. 

[Binmans PA 25,866]

13 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Glad to see Preuss in. Definitely needed for our structure. 

Disappointed to see Rivers and Hannan out ahead of Jones and Vandenburg. Vanders in particular has been straight up ****house this season. Gives up goals by being a stupid fake tough guy and couldn’t hit the side of a barn with his kicking. How he got a 3 year contract as a fringe player who couldn’t get on the park  is the biggest mystery in footy. 

We just need to win this match. Lose and it’s nearly curtains for 2020. Win and we cling on to the back of the pack. Get it done Dees!

Really worried about whether Preuss can run out a game though. I know Grundy is coming off a four day break and has been smashed, but those kms in the legs can sometimes help push through the lactic acid. On the other hand, Preuss is cherry ripe, but how quickly does he start to become impacted by the lactic acid build up he's not used to?

This is where it could be lost IMV. If Preuss demonstrates that he can't keep up with Grundy, we'll have to rest him forward and play Tom or Sam in the ruck, or maybe even Tomlinson and that will pull at our structure at either end of the ground. Collingwood then rebounds off Preuss when the ball hits the deck.

Edited August 14, 2020 by A F

[Demons11 6,404]

30 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 

Very interesting comments, he also went on to say that Hannan should be in 

[dworship 3,342]

2 minutes ago, A F said:

Really worried about whether Preuss can run out a game though. I know Grundy is coming off a four day break and has been smashed, but those kms in the legs can sometimes help push through the lactic acid. On the other hand, Preuss is cherry ripe, but how quickly does he start to become impacted by the lactic acid build up he's not used to?

This is where it could be lost IMV. If Preuss demonstrates that he can't keep up with Grundy, we'll have to rest him forward and play Tom or Sam in the ruck, or maybe even Tomlinson and that will pull at our structure at either end of the ground. Collingwood then rebounds off Preuss when the ball hits the deck.

In Burgess we trust and I think there are a few on here who don't understand that this is Preuss 2.0. Will not be happy to be proven wrong.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

12 minutes ago, A F said:

Fair enough. So who would you bring in to provide that same intensity or better?

I reckon Viney coming in could have replaced vB going out this week. But as you say, we're trying to be based on pressure and intensity so we should be expecting them all to bring it I guess.

12 minutes ago, A F said:

I'd have Melksham, Spargo and Fritsch easily ahead of his for connection. All three get really involved in scoring chains and connect half back to half forward, to deep forward when in form. 

Yeah, Spargo's only done it once this season, but he did it consistently in 2018. I expect he'll continue to be involved in scoring chains. 

We've then got Weideman, McDonald and then Petracca and hopefully Viney resting forward. He misses out because there's too many ahead of him. 

He, Melksham, Bennell and Fritsch need to bring much more pressure at the drop of the ball and in the contest. 

  Haven't rated Melksham in that regard this year tbh. Usually he's my absolute number 1, but this year I reckon he's played some selfish footy. Not chasing or tackling (yet ironically named captain last week, go figure) and seems to be looking straight for the goals rather than to deliver to a teammate.

Fritsch is more a target inside 50 rather than a 'connector'.

At this point in time you'd have to have Spargo ahead of Hannan for connection. His game last week was great in that regard and it's previously been a strength of his as well.

Weid and McDonald targets rather than connectors. Petracca probably our best for connection. Viney up and down, has shown signs but wouldn't be rating as one of our best connectors just yet.

Agree that too much is being left to too few in regards to forward pressure, yet Melksham was captain last week so I don't know how it all stacks up. FWIW, Hannan has Melksham covered for tackles, contested possessions, contested marks, one percenters, score involvements and tackles inside 50.

Edit - And pressure acts too.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Lord Nev

[Demonland 64,361]

Some more fuel for your fire @Lord Nev

 

[dazzledavey36 48,587]

Vandenberg.. one of the most overrated player on this website.

Selections are meh for me. Harmes was fumble and gave away free kicks last week. Rivers was clean with the ball and provided defensive rebound off half back. But hey let's drop the kid who contributed far more then the out of form senior player.

Crazy goody at it again.

 

[drdrake 3,035]

This will show us where we are at, a game we should win, the coach is backing his players in, by 7pm tomorrow we will know whether we are a serious side or just a flat track bully.  I think we are the latter but hope to be proved wrong.

[CHF 2,585]

I think that, given the injuries we have at present this is a good a team as you could get. There are arguments both ways for the inclusions and exclusions that were made and it will depend on how/where the coaching staff look to utilise  the strength of the players.

My opinion is that Preuss was a certainty once Jackson and Gawn were confirmed outs. It will be interesting to see how he performs. I hope he is hungry for the game and has sat down with Stafford, Gawn and the midfield to talk through the way they want it to go. I want to see our inside mids really hunting the ball at the bounces.

Viney in is a big positive. Personally I would have dropped either Jones or Harmes to make the space. Jones looks to be hlf a pace off it at the moment but Harmes is completely out of touch with fumbles and giving away silly frees.

Lockhart for Rivers is a toss up in my book. we would not have lost/gained much either way if we have retained Rivers. the coaches may be looking at matchups.

I think we will win going away from them in the lat quarter and a half. 26pts.

 

[WA Demon Boy 966]

Why on earth do we have to play Jones and AVB? Rivers should get a spot ahead of one of them - has some dash and more creativity with his kick than both of them.

I get that it's wet but we have plethora of inside players. 

It's going to be tight but we have to expose their backline - it's really weak other than Moore and Crisp and those two are running backs and not really lock down defenders. Looking to Weed and Tmac (not relying) to clunk a few against their smaller backs even in the wet. 

Tomorrow at 6pm radar is saying no showers in Bris 

Huge game 

Edited August 14, 2020 by MF-C