Life without Gawn?

[boydie 653]

You can't replace 208cm bloke that marks everything coming his way.

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

46 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

What does this tell us?

• 2019 Toby Nankervis
• 2018 Scott Lycett
• 2017 Toby Nankervis
• 2016 Jordan Roughead
• 2015 Ben McEvoy
• 2014  David Hale
• 2013  Max Bailey
• 2012 Shane Mumford
• 2011 Brad Ottens
• 2010 Darren Jolly

Don't think it tells us much. Zaine Cordy, Chris Dawes and Sam Reid all have premiership medals, but no one tries to argue that full forwards are obsolete.

A gun ruckman is still just 1 of 22 players. Teams can and do win flags without one - but they help.

We're extremely fortunate to have Maxy.

[Pates 9,536]

We’re a much better team with Gawn but I do think our midfield started getting lazy expecting taps to come straight down their throats. Much like our lack of planning with kick outs (ie just kick it to Max) I think there needs to be some variation brought into ruck contest, particularly if they are sharking his taps too well. 

We have a genuine weapon in Gawn, let’s not waste him by behind one dimensional. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Pates

[Altona-demon 318]

Some great posts here - and thanks to some posters for genuinely considering what I think is an important issue.  I don't contend that we are better without Max (that would be crazy) but the last two weeks have shown (as some people on the thread have picked up) - that when Melbourne shows different dimensions in that midfield or at stoppage we can be very hard to match. 

I think we need to use Max in different ways, its clear the strong teams prepare well against our perceived strengths.  The Lions and Geelong games where good examples of this. 

Is there a pressure on midfielders to receive all of Gawn's elite tap-work? Does this result in flat-footedness? Also think that Brayshaw holding the space and Clarry starting to run - rather than quick dish - are two massive things for the midfield.  Not sure I want JV coming back in with another bull onball....

[deelusions from afar 1,608]

Good posts here.  

I don't think our midfielders were necessarily flatfooted early in the season, but I feel like better midfields in the competition knew Gawn would win the tap and so scrag / tackle whoever the tap was going to even before they got the ball.

 

It was prommising to see Oliver / Petracca running away with the ball in the last two weeks - but for me I don't think the likes of Port / Bris etc would have allowed them to do that.  Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Altona-demon 318]

41 minutes ago, deelusions from afar said:

Good posts here.  

I don't think our midfielders were necessarily flatfooted early in the season, but I feel like better midfields in the competition knew Gawn would win the tap and so scrag / tackle whoever the tap was going to even before they got the ball.

 

It was prommising to see Oliver / Petracca running away with the ball in the last two weeks - but for me I don't think the likes of Port / Bris etc would have allowed them to do that.  Hopefully I'm wrong.

I think your point about Oliver and Petracca is so important, but more so for Oliver.  When he starts running through channels and clearing contests with his speeds, teams will need to apply tackle pressure (rather than hanging off waiting for the spud handball as is currently the case) - brining this element to his game - and then hopefully adding the Dangerfield-esque edge of 50 goal (which I believe he can kick) - will make soooo much more dangerous.  He is a helluva talent. 

Similarly, Brayshaw holding space is so key to balancing the inside and outside contest work of the team.  Can't underestimate how good Brayshaw is when playing in the middle.  V. exciting for the weekend. 

[Jaded No More 57,705]

On 8/10/2020 at 11:39 AM, dazzledavey36 said:

Really dumbfounded by some of these calls that we play better without Gawn. Cockiness and the arrogance to think we are better off without our 2nd best player who's potentially on his way to his 4th All Australian.

If Gawn is fit, he plays. Its pretty simple.

Correct. We played the second worst team in the competition last week. Let's not get carried away with that win. 

He is one of the best players in the competition and he makes us infinitely better. The ruck is one thing, but his work around the ground and his contested marking is invaluable. 

[Binmans PA 25,903]

On 8/10/2020 at 11:39 AM, dazzledavey36 said:

Really dumbfounded by some of these calls that we play better without Gawn. Cockiness and the arrogance to think we are better off without our 2nd best player who's potentially on his way to his 4th All Australian.

If Gawn is fit, he plays. Its pretty simple.

The ruck position is overrated and this is backed by every premiership team in the modern era. 

Max is great around the ground, but as a marking intercept defender. 

I don't think it's arrogance. It's asking a difficult question. No one's saying they don't love Max, but the question is does his exclusion make us more unpredictable. I'd say it absolutely does.

We should be looking at ways to maximise what he can bring that is an absolute weapon, which is that marking and the taps to advantage.

I like @Pates post a lot. We've been far too one dimensional with Max. That's on the coaches, Max and the mids.

Edited August 14, 2020 by A F

[leucopogon 1,468]

God I hope our players aren't drinking the bathwater again. Posters in here reading far too much into two ok performances against absolute poop opposition. If we can back it up against the pies and dogs maybe I'll start believing again.

[The heart beats true 16,033]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:24 PM, Queanbeyan Demon said:

What does this tell us?

• 2019 Toby Nankervis
• 2018 Scott Lycett
• 2017 Toby Nankervis
• 2016 Jordan Roughead
• 2015 Ben McEvoy
• 2014  David Hale
• 2013  Max Bailey
• 2012 Shane Mumford
• 2011 Brad Ottens
• 2010 Darren Jolly

 

That I wouldn’t recognise 5 of the last 10 premiership ruckman if I saw them on the street? 

?

[Altona-demon 318]

On 8/14/2020 at 2:21 PM, A F said:

The ruck position is overrated and this is backed by every premiership team in the modern era. 

Max is great around the ground, but as a marking intercept defender. 

I don't think it's arrogance. It's asking a difficult question. No one's saying they don't love Max, but the question is does his exclusion make us more unpredictable. I'd say it absolutely does.

We should be looking at ways to maximise what he can bring that is an absolute weapon, which is that marking and the taps to advantage.

I like @Pates post a lot. We've been far too one dimensional with Max. That's on the coaches, Max and the mids.

This is my point exactly, its not a comfortable question to ask, but it is the right question to ask.  

Players aren't exempt from scrutiny because of past performance, and no player is greater than the success of the overall playing unit. The style and strategy of the team has looked stellar in his absence. 

The challenge for Goody and the team, is achieving this WITH Max in the team.  The kick out down the middle or down the line, should be used sparingly. Max should be tried forward and do some damage on the scoreboard as a contested mark winner.  He did this on occasion in 2018....

 

[Binmans PA 25,903]

1 hour ago, Altona-demon said:

This is my point exactly, its not a comfortable question to ask, but it is the right question to ask.  

Players aren't exempt from scrutiny because of past performance, and no player is greater than the success of the overall playing unit. The style and strategy of the team has looked stellar in his absence. 

The challenge for Goody and the team, is achieving this WITH Max in the team.  The kick out down the middle or down the line, should be used sparingly. Max should be tried forward and do some damage on the scoreboard as a contested mark winner.  He did this on occasion in 2018....

 

I'm liking some of the analysis around Geelong's centre stoppage set ups (from @george_on_the_outer), as well as what I witnessed in the Richmond v Suns game last night. I think these sorts of tactics are what's required to make us more unpredictable and utilise Max's strengths to the fullest.

It actually makes very little sense to keep our set up as compact has it has been when we have Oliver and Petracca's explosiveness in there. Even Viney can be explosive occasionally. I'd be looking at these set ups carefully if I was Benny Mathews, which I'm sure he's doing.

Edited August 18, 2020 by A F

[Altona-demon 318]

28 minutes ago, A F said:

I'm liking some of the analysis around Geelong's centre stoppage set up, as well as what I witnessed in the Richmond v Suns game last night. I think these sorts of tactics are what's required to make us more unpredictable and utilise Max's strengths to the fullest.

It actually makes very little sense to keep our set up as compact has it has been when we have Oliver and Petracca's explosiveness in there. Even Viney can be explosive occasionally. I'd be looking at these set ups carefully if I was Benny Mathews, which I'm sure he's doing.

It's a good point, Clarry is a completely different player when he uses that explosive speed to burst through the channels in the space (which don't exist when we are compact playing for tapwork).  He also creates two looks for defences to manage - add tackle pressure to prevent him clearing the contest and he can hurt you with his handballs.  

I think Geelong's ability to change tactics and shift playing styles is the high watermark.  The way they dismantled Port Adelaide with keepings off, looked very similar to the way they played against us.  Their mix of experienced heads with the addition of players like Rohan and Menegola to add run and forward half pressure makes them a very hard team to beat.  I can see them going the distance. 

If we can learn to shift our style as well, lead by experienced heads in the midfield (say Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Gawn) we could become a regular finals team.  Right now though, I haven't seen that in any of our games.  And our position on the ladder reflects it. 

[Binmans PA 25,903]

30 minutes ago, Altona-demon said:

It's a good point, Clarry is a completely different player when he uses that explosive speed to burst through the channels in the space (which don't exist when we are compact playing for tapwork).  He also creates two looks for defences to manage - add tackle pressure to prevent him clearing the contest and he can hurt you with his handballs.  

I think Geelong's ability to change tactics and shift playing styles is the high watermark.  The way they dismantled Port Adelaide with keepings off, looked very similar to the way they played against us.  Their mix of experienced heads with the addition of players like Rohan and Menegola to add run and forward half pressure makes them a very hard team to beat.  I can see them going the distance. 

If we can learn to shift our style as well, lead by experienced heads in the midfield (say Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Gawn) we could become a regular finals team.  Right now though, I haven't seen that in any of our games.  And our position on the ladder reflects it. 

I prefer the Richmond surge. Not only do they increase the intensity around stoppages and contests, they throw in these different looking set ups around stoppages. Geelong can't win finals and when games are more contested, I don't think their keepings off works anymore in big finals. It might get you to the big finals, but wining the contest and then surging still looks pretty good to me. But each to their own, mate. : )

[layzie 28,526]

I think this game was more a case of serving up some unpredictability. The chances are opposition would work us out after a few games of it. 

Yeah we might have to mix up the way we go about centre bounces but you'd be crazy to give up a hit out specialist like Max, just find a way to use it better. 

[Anti-Saint 188]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:24 PM, Queanbeyan Demon said:

What does this tell us?

• 2019 Toby Nankervis
• 2018 Scott Lycett
• 2017 Toby Nankervis
• 2016 Jordan Roughead
• 2015 Ben McEvoy
• 2014  David Hale
• 2013  Max Bailey
• 2012 Shane Mumford
• 2011 Brad Ottens
• 2010 Darren Jolly

 

that rucking not vital - so, QBD, what do you want to do at stoppages?  Bring back the 1991 Hypocrite Hwy tactic of using a RR like Paul Dear for tap work?

[Queanbeyan Demon 5,896]

5 hours ago, Anti-Saint said:

that rucking not vital - so, QBD, what do you want to do at stoppages?  Bring back the 1991 Hypocrite Hwy tactic of using a RR like Paul Dear for tap work?

Who was the last genuine star ruckman to play in a premiership?

and if you know the answer to that question . . . 

Who was the last genuine superstar ruckman to play in a premiership?

Edited August 18, 2020 by Queanbeyan Demon
Typo

[Swooper1987 2,725]

5 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Who was the last genuine star ruckman to play in a premiership?

and if you know the answer to that question . . . 

Who was the last genuine superstar ruckman to play in a premiership?

Dean Cox 2006

[Queanbeyan Demon 5,896]

19 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

Dean Cox 2006

Thank you very much! 

[Altona-demon 318]

So, the Bulldogs rucking with Dunkley were able to dominate us around the clearance and the midfield contest, despite us winning the hitouts.  What is the value in the ruck position?

[Swooper1987 2,725]

14 minutes ago, Altona-demon said:

So, the Bulldogs rucking with Dunkley were able to dominate us around the clearance and the midfield contest, despite us winning the hitouts.  What is the value in the ruck position?

When it's played well it's the difference between winning and losing.  Gawn is a champion, Preuss is a trier.  Gawn's deft touch is elite.  The Bulldogs got away with it yesterday, and they may get away with it next week against Geelong, but the week after, NicNat will absolutely obliterate them. There are hitouts and then there are hitouts.

[Clintosaurus 6,412]

Mate in Brisbane texted me that Gawn won't play again this year. Not sure where he got that from.

[bush demon 1,875]

2 minutes ago, Clintosaurus said:

Mate in Brisbane texted me that Gawn won't play again this year. Not sure where he got that from.

Cliff from Clematis.