Jump to content

  • Podcast: Gary Pert Interview    

  • Podcast LIVE Tonight @ 8:30pm Preview      

Burgo, the EPL & Shorter Quarters


Demonland
 Share


Recommended Posts


You can easily argue that, over the years, we've made some poor choices with off field personnel.  

However, we've got it right with Burgess.  Not only is our injury list one of the best in the league (and when was the last time we could say that?) but we are fit and firing.  We are running out games strongly and we never look tired.  

Burgess was brought in to get the fitness aspect right, and while he doesn't dictate how we kick a footy or the decisions we make on the field, he has put the players in the best possible position to get the best out of themselves, and he has to be commended for that.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

ive just read through this article and cannot help see some similarities as to what Goodwin is trying to do at the Dees... even if you’re not that interested in soccer, this is a great piece on how tactics fit into soccer more generally, and how certain elements fit into our game. Particularly the high press.

timely with this new EPL thread

Edited by Engorged Onion
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Gee Burgo is impressive. A great get. Also cudos again to Ben who does a good job with Talking Points. He is well prepared, asks intelligent questions and is respectful without being too obviously PR driven.

Yes - Burgo really oozes a quiet confidence. Although it’s been a weird season, it’s notable that we’ve had no soft tissue injuries yet (touch wood).

Also agree with your comment about Ben Gibson - he’s doing a great job of the interviews, not just PR fluff pieces and not afraid to go in-depth with some of the questions. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

ive just read through this article and cannot help see some similarities as to what Goodwin is trying to do at the Dees... even if you’re not that interested in soccer, this is a great piece on how tactics fit into soccer more generally, and how certain elements fit into our game. Particularly the high press.

timely with this new EPL thread

Learning from the best in Klopp, alot of people on here wouldn't like hearing that.

We have tightened up at the back this year, Jurgen could be rubbing off on Simon, just waiting for the Forward line to click into gear. Could Tmac back in the line up unleash a 3 pronged Tall Forward line and take us to the promise land?

One can only sit back and hope.

Edited by Win4theAges
  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Soccer players don't get slammed into the ground multiple times per game - although it does appear they cop the occasional sniper fire to the legs. Love Burgo (if I was Nick Kyrgios I would have him on the phone) - but I just hope we're being as tactically smart as can be. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

ive just read through this article and cannot help see some similarities as to what Goodwin is trying to do at the Dees... even if you’re not that interested in soccer, this is a great piece on how tactics fit into soccer more generally, and how certain elements fit into our game. Particularly the high press.

timely with this new EPL thread

Great article. Thanks for sharing mate. I got a lot out of it. This is probably too tangential but this is great also: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/feb/01/pioneering-reds-the-reds-jurgen-klopp-liverpool-pressing-unlikely-origin

It's not something I'd thought of but it makes complete sense. That the ideas of a structural engineer could be used to break down defenses and create attacks in a sporting context is fascinating to me. It lives in a similar world to the Rand Corporation's beliefs surrounding game theory and how technocrats have applied this to form much of neoliberal thought. 

I find it all fascinating and modern tactics in the EPL I get swept up in and it's why I loved Clarkson's initial innovation of the clusters and then the keepings off game. That sort of ingenuity deserves reward IMO and similarly, our so called Diamond Defence was another really interesting progression on the modern AFL zone.

I feel like the tactics of football/soccer are a mile ahead of the AFL/footy though, but perhaps this is partly because there is only one country playing our game and less ideas floating around. We have a different game of course, but the presss and zoning in the AFL is still particularly simple. I wonder whether with reduced list sizes, coupled with a strain on the draft pool post COVID, whether a new tactician will come to the fore.

As for the Burgo interview, I really liked it. Seems calm, switched on and a great asset to our football club.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, A F said:

Great article. Thanks for sharing mate. I got a lot out of it. This is probably too tangential but this is great also: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/feb/01/pioneering-reds-the-reds-jurgen-klopp-liverpool-pressing-unlikely-origin

It's not something I'd thought of but it makes complete sense. That the ideas of a structural engineer could be used to break down defenses and create attacks in a sporting context is fascinating to me. It lives in a similar world to the Rand Corporation's beliefs surrounding game theory and how technocrats have applied this to form much of neoliberal thought. 

I find it all fascinating and modern tactics in the EPL I get swept up in and it's why I loved Clarkson's initial innovation of the clusters and then the keepings off game. That sort of ingenuity deserves reward IMO and similarly, our so called Diamond Defence was another really interesting progression on the modern AFL zone.

I feel like the tactics of football/soccer are a mile ahead of the AFL/footy though, but perhaps this is partly because there is only one country playing our game and less ideas floating around. We have a different game of course, but the presss and zoning in the AFL is still particularly simple. I wonder whether with reduced list sizes, coupled with a strain on the draft pool post COVID, whether a new tactician will come to the fore.

As for the Burgo interview, I really liked it. Seems calm, switched on and a great asset to our football club.

Yes AF, I did read that as a follow up (click on as many links as possible to make sense of things), and essentially it explains how the evolution of tactics in sports evolve, its' no different here in Australia. Remenber the days when publicly we were worried about flooding??? Jonathon WIlson is a fantastic sports writer... I used to read him 20-10 years ago when I was a keen follower of the EPL - I've drifted a fair bit - but it's always good to go and have a really thorough forensic analysis of strategy, I wish there was more access, or more content like that for the public to consume here.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Putting aside the tactical arguments as raised above, the premise that you can draw a conclusion that just because Burgess has experience in soccer physical performance management can relate to AFL, is fundamentally flawed. Soccer is mostly a non-contact sport, and the grounds are a lot smaller. I would defy anyone to argue that soccer is as physically demanding as AFL. I think the idea of not managing players through this next 3 weeks is fraught with danger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

Putting aside the tactical arguments as raised above, the premise that you can draw a conclusion that just because Burgess has experience in soccer physical performance management can relate to AFL, is fundamentally flawed. Soccer is mostly a non-contact sport, and the grounds are a lot smaller. I would defy anyone to argue that soccer is as physically demanding as AFL. I think the idea of not managing players through this next 3 weeks is fraught with danger

Of course. But equally it would be a flawed assumption that Burgess is not aware of all that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, sue said:

Of course. But equally it would be a flawed assumption that Burgess is not aware of all that.

I don’t think so Sue. He, and Goody, have both said they will not be resting players through this block of games, because they are of the belief that it works in the EPL and other similar leagues. As I said, fraught with danger as they are totally different sports with different demands on the body. We will see in 21 days I suppose

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

Putting aside the tactical arguments as raised above, the premise that you can draw a conclusion that just because Burgess has experience in soccer physical performance management can relate to AFL, is fundamentally flawed. Soccer is mostly a non-contact sport, and the grounds are a lot smaller. I would defy anyone to argue that soccer is as physically demanding as AFL. I think the idea of not managing players through this next 3 weeks is fraught with danger

I'm not sure you know soccer that well then. Playing midfield in soccer is incredibly physically demanding, particularly with the pressing game in vogue. 

Since Burgess left Arsenal, they've been very ordinary tracking back into defence.

Yes, they're different sports, but I wouldn't underestimate the amount of running done on the majority of a soccer pitch. It may be a smaller pitch, but that doesn't mean there's not just as much, if not more, running.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, A F said:

I'm not sure you know soccer that well then. Playing midfield in soccer is incredibly physically demanding, particularly with the pressing game in vogue. 

Since Burgess left Arsenal, they've been very ordinary tracking back into defence.

Yes, they're different sports, but I wouldn't underestimate the amount of running done on the majority of a soccer pitch. It may be a smaller pitch, but that doesn't mean there's not just as much, if not more, running.

Yep.

11 Players constantly running. EPL is a tough sport if you watch the Close ups. Not as much upper body of course, but shins, ankles and feet cop a hammering

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

I don’t think so Sue. He, and Goody, have both said they will not be resting players through this block of games, because they are of the belief that it works in the EPL and other similar leagues. As I said, fraught with danger as they are totally different sports with different demands on the body. We will see in 21 days I suppose

 

As they are experts in their field, with a range of other experts at their beck and call to draw data and information from, from a biological, training and biomechanical perspective, do you really genuinely think that they would proclaim not resting players publicly, without understanding deeply what the similarities AND differences are of the two sports..

Quick maths 2x45 minutes halves= 90min

4x16 min quarters = 94min

Both have periodic relentless running, whilst also being stationary periodically. I am sure this has been quantified. 

Also, the effort levels of walking, running, sprinting (and how things track between the two sports).

 

Not withstanding Burgess has a long association with the AFL before he went to the EPL.

They've both had roughly 20-25 years at the elite end of the spectrum in this sport.

It reminds me of the Apostrophe statement.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KNOWING YOUR [censored] AND KNOWING YOU’RE [censored]

I dare say Burgess falls in to the latter category. 

Edited by Engorged Onion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

I don’t think so Sue. He, and Goody, have both said they will not be resting players through this block of games, because they are of the belief that it works in the EPL and other similar leagues. As I said, fraught with danger as they are totally different sports with different demands on the body. We will see in 21 days I suppose

 

It's a logical error to assume that because they publicly say that they don't plan to rest anyone, to conclude as you do that they are unaware of the differences you listed.  It is possible they are aware and yet came to a different conclusion than you.  (And of course who knows what they say/plan in private).

Edited by sue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

Well, AF, Sue and Engorged Onion, we will agree to disagree, and revisit again in 21 days

Sounds good bobby - out of interest, what's the metric for you to assess whether the approach was appropriate or not?

Rather than looking at a W/L record, I'll be looking for how players compete in the final quarter. I'm not quite sure how to best measure it beyond optics on the tv, as we don't have access to km run per quarter and at what speed per player (unless someone can guide me to those details).

Let's chat in 21 days :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Sounds good bobby - out of interest, what's the metric for you to assess whether the approach was appropriate or not?

Rather than looking at a W/L record, I'll be looking for how players compete in the final quarter. I'm not quite sure how to best measure it beyond optics on the tv, as we don't have access to km run per quarter and at what speed per player (unless someone can guide me to those details).

Let's chat in 21 days :)

As Burgo says that's not how the club will measure it.

They'll be looking at how we defend and attack across all quarters (within reason).

If our defence remains as solid, I think that'll be a reasonable indicator.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m sure the AFL will be collecting a lot of data in the next “compressed” phase of the season. If teams can handle it well then it opens the door to a more than 22 round H&A season in 2021 and beyond... ie more games, more dollars, etc... 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, A F said:

Great article. Thanks for sharing mate. I got a lot out of it. This is probably too tangential but this is great also: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/feb/01/pioneering-reds-the-reds-jurgen-klopp-liverpool-pressing-unlikely-origin

It's not something I'd thought of but it makes complete sense. That the ideas of a structural engineer could be used to break down defenses and create attacks in a sporting context is fascinating to me. It lives in a similar world to the Rand Corporation's beliefs surrounding game theory and how technocrats have applied this to form much of neoliberal thought. 

I find it all fascinating and modern tactics in the EPL I get swept up in and it's why I loved Clarkson's initial innovation of the clusters and then the keepings off game. That sort of ingenuity deserves reward IMO and similarly, our so called Diamond Defence was another really interesting progression on the modern AFL zone.

I feel like the tactics of football/soccer are a mile ahead of the AFL/footy though, but perhaps this is partly because there is only one country playing our game and less ideas floating around. We have a different game of course, but the presss and zoning in the AFL is still particularly simple. I wonder whether with reduced list sizes, coupled with a strain on the draft pool post COVID, whether a new tactician will come to the fore.

As for the Burgo interview, I really liked it. Seems calm, switched on and a great asset to our football club.

After I left Aus I paid zero attention to footy for fourteen years. Then I discovered the watch AFL app at the time of the final series of 2015 and thought I’d give the kids some Aussie culture. Well, I was blown away by the change in game style. It felt as if at some point, while my back was turned, a team of scientists had been brought in to work out how to play the game. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bobby1554 said:

Well, AF, Sue and Engorged Onion, we will agree to disagree, and revisit again in 21 days

There was an interview with Burgess shortly after he joined the club, maybe on SEN, where he discussed this very issue. As I recall, he said the soccer players do 11 times more accelerations than footy players, but otherwise the games were roughly equivalent in terms of the demand on the body, apart from the length of the game, which doesn’t count this season... Anyone interested might be able to find it. With Garry L and Tim Watson if I remember correctly.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

There was an interview with Burgess shortly after he joined the club, maybe on SEN, where he discussed this very issue. As I recall, he said the soccer players do 11 times more accelerations than footy players, but otherwise the games were roughly equivalent in terms of the demand on the body, apart from the length of the game, which doesn’t count this season... Anyone interested might be able to find it. With Garry L and Tim Watson if I remember correctly.

Thanks for that @Grr-owl

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    CAT SKINNING by George On The Outer

    When they defeated the Geelong Cats in the 2021 AFL Preliminary Final on Friday night in Perth, Melbourne proved that there is more than one way to skin those cats.  They did it in the ruck and in the middle, they did it in the forward line, they did it in defence and around the ground, but importantly, each and every player a Demon guernsey spent his night at Optus Stadium skinning an opponent. Following the after-the-siren win against Geelong in Round 23, there was an expectation of

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    THE POINTY END by The Oracle

    The AFL’s two oldest clubs, Melbourne and Geelong, face off on Friday evening in a sudden death Preliminary Final. It’s a game that promises plenty in terms of fascination and intrigue as a result of the rivalry that’s been building between the teams over recent encounters that have been tight struggles which have gone to the wire with two of them decided by after-the-siren goals. The added touch of mystery attached to this week’s meeting comes by virtue of the fact that it’s going to take

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    THE VFL YEAR THAT NEVER WAS by KC from Casey

    The rising case numbers and the continuing lockdowns in Victoria and NSW spelled doom for the 2021 VFL season which went through a slow, painful demise before its recent official cancellation. After weeks of indecision, the AFL decided to pull the plug on the season with the 10-0 Bulldogs recognised as minor premier, but without a premiership cup and without awarding the J.J. Liston Medal for the best and fairest VFL player. It was somewhat fortuitous for the integrity of the competition t

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    TAMING THE LIONS by George On The Outer

    With nine finals debutants in the side, the Melbourne Football Club had a daunting assignment ahead of it in the First Qualifying Final — to overcome the competition’s highest scoring side, the Brisbane Lions. In the end, the Demons accomplished the task by putting the bite on their opponents on their way to taming the Lions and recording a 33 point win that propelled them into one the two Preliminary Finals of 2021.   It was one of those debutants, Luke Jackson, who put the bite in more

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    RETURN TO NEVERLAND by Whispering Jack

    The greatest Demon A HIGHWAY OF DEMONS by Whispering Jack CHAPTER SIXTEEN - RETURN TO NEVERLAND  I have a six year old grandson who recently took up the family tradition of following the Demons. He had his first taste of the game a few years ago when he went to the “G” with his parents to watch the 107-point massacre of Carlton and he went to another game in the following season which was also a W for the Dees. But his appetite for the club has grown exponentially this year and wh

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features 13

    METAMORPHOSIS by Whispering Jack

    I’ve always believed that when the home and away matches come to an end, the football season takes on a completely different shape and character. During the regular season, each team’s goals progress as the weeks pass and if you’re good enough to survive and make the grade, the situation changes. The comparison can be made with the life cycle of a butterfly going through stages from egg to larva to caterpillar, cocoon and in the end to a bright and colourful creature that emerges from darkness i

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    STEALING THE CATS’ CREAM by George On The Outer

    They were leading by 44 points well into the third quarter of a game to decide the minor premier, having kicked nine unanswered goals. The Cats were about to lap up their bowl of cream, dreaming of next week but the Demons led by Max Gawn had other ideas. In a stunning finish, they stole the game from under them to claim the plaudits as best team and top of ladder position. In a remarkable game, it all came down to Max having to kick the winning goal after the final siren, something which s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    SKIN THE CATS by Whispering Jack

    The task ahead for the Demons as they wend their way down the Princes Freeway to Geelong on Saturday night will be to skin the Cats. For them to come away with the points from this game would mark an historic occasion for the club as it will finish on top of the ladder for the first time since its last premiership year, 1964. And it was in that year, that a trip to Corio Bay to meet the reigning premiers in Round 12, was one of the catalysts for Melbourne’s surge to the flag. It was a top o

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    REACH FOR THE STARS by George on the Outer

    It was a game of great significance for the Melbourne Football Club. A win would see them keep top spot on the ladder with one round remaining. To achieve top place in the Round for Reach when we are all inspired to “Be Like Jim” and reach for the stars was a great way of honouring one of our heroes. All the better given that it was done by way of an emphatic 41 point win against Adelaide! It is worth remembering that, but for the umpiring mistake in the previous encounter with the Crows, t

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    TICKETS PLEASE by The Oracle

    A lot of water has passed under Princes Bridge in the five years since Melbourne last met Adelaide on the MCG. The Crows were riding high at the time while the Demons were mid-table and scrambling for a win to stay in the race for the finals. The 30,000 fans who had tickets to the game were thoroughly entertained by a close, high scoring affair that ended in tears for fans of the home team. Not even an eight-goal second term could help them.   Times have changed.    In the fi

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    ELECTRIFYING by George On The Outer

    What more can they throw at the Demons of 2021? Covid restrictions, hubs, aircraft circling between airports before landing for games and now a match stopped for 30 minutes to give a flagging opponent its second wind? To date, none of those distractions has swayed the team from their winning objectives. The game against West Coast in Perth can be marked on their report card as another positive outcome after yet another test. There was much at stake for both sides.  Melbourne had t

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    LONG AGO AND FAR AWAY by Whispering Jack

    When the combatants that are due to face off on Monday night at Optus Stadium last met, it was 11 days after the World Health Organization had declared the Covid19 outbreak a global pandemic. In Australia, the first cases had just come to light, including visiting US actors Tom Hanks and wife Rita Wilson, the toilet paper panic was in full flight and the world was starting to reel in anticipation of impending disaster. Half an hour before this last game of the opening round was due to comme

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...