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Jack Viney Restricted Free Agent


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Just now, deebug said:

If it has taken this long, then it seems more than likely Jack is gone.

 

Why Fritsch hasn't signed either is he gone?

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4 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I think we all can be guilty of concentrating too much on a player's limitations and not their strengths.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm as guilty as anyone. 

6 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Out of interest, in doing this research did you ascertain why (or form any conclusion) we were often so poor at clearances despite having the dominant tap ruckman ?  It didn't always matter, as we often won games, but lost the clearances, including centre clearances.  And it was despite having the number clearance player for the year - Oliver.

Either Max wasn't using it correctly, or one or two of those stoppage mids were getting beaten.

Yeah, just a few things. I don't have the figures but I'd suggest we are a very good centre bounce team and probably an average/below average general stoppage team. I think, generally, we set up our clearances primarily to not get scored against. We will often concede an extra number in the stoppage whilst our extra number is a fair way off the back of the stoppage. I think this is primarily because we don't mind conceding the territory as long as we don't concede scores, however this does usually result in 3 midfielders fighting for a clearance against 4 or 5. Also, I think Gawn's tap value is often overstated and we actually often look better when Jackson is rucking in stoppages around the ground, because he was able to even up the midfielder numbers around the ball whilst still allowing us to play an extra number off the back of the contest.

I would like to see our scores from stoppage vs scores conceded from stoppage. I'd say we're probably right near the top (although that's just an educated guess) of that. They're my thoughts but I'd be interested in others having a look themselves to see if they can dig down into it a bit more.

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23 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

No issue with all you’ve posted. However, the issue is, he has had years to work on his shortcomings and by all reports I’ve heard, does not take onboard feedback. That is an area he needs to improve. Accepting that he is not perfect and work on areas of his game. Perhaps he is not coachable 

This is the exact opposite of everything anyone has ever told me about Viney. His B&F results over a long period across different coaches also strongly indicate that he is extremely coachable. 

There are legitimate faults in his game that can be rightly argued. He's not perfect. But this seems extremely unlikely to be one of those faults.

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8 minutes ago, deebug said:

I thought Fritsch had signed a few weeks back?

I don't think so I haven't seen anything?

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12 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

OK. Viney does multiple roles, and it varied depending on who is in the centre with him. Here is one against St Kilda, without Oliver. It's Viney, Brayshaw and Petracca.

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This is set up for Petracca to have the who far side open to him. Viney blocks out Steele, Brayshaw gets inside Jones to block and Petracca beats Ross and gets to the far side with space. This is shown below:

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Unfortunately the play breaks down because Brayshaw can't get inside Jones to block him out, so Jones gets the ball before it gets to Petracca. Viney, on the other hand, gets Steele out of position and is therefor a non-factor in the stoppage. This is shown below.

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I show this as an example of how important these roles are in stoppages.

Here is another, with the play designed for Oliver. Oliver is to beat Shiel to the tap to the far side, with Viney blocking out Merrett to create space and Melksham playing purely defensively on Stringer (near side).

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Essentially:

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Merrett give Viney the slip early, which puts the play in jeopardy.

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But Viney is able to recover to win body position to push Merrett into the contest, which keeps the play alive.

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Oliver gets a little hold from Shiel, but because Viney has done his job so well on Merrett he's now clear and able to recover the ball to win the clearance.

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Around the ground, Viney does the same on good players. Here the tap is for Oliver, with Crouch defending him. Brayshaw blocks the inside exit and AVB the defensive exit (we're kicking left). Viney is trusted one on one with their best player, Rory Laird.

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Viney beats Laird for position and, when there's no effective tap from either Gawn or O'Reilly, Viney is able to win the clearance off the back of his good defensive body work. 

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Now he's one with Petracca on Laird and Brayshaw on Crouch. It's a weird one because the play breaks down with a dodgy bounce. The tap ends up going forwards to no-man's land. But the important thing is the defence at the stoppage. 

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Crouch edges Brayshaw off the ball and Petracca is lost with the clever Laird, but Viney recovers really quickly from the odd tap and gets himself between the ball and Keays, who isn't able to have any influence on the play. 

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The first possession is won by Crouch and the clearance by Laird. It's a comfortable clearance in the end and Laird wanders through untouched. Keays is shut out quickly by Viney. Brayshaw and Petracca are non-entities once beaten, but Viney is able to do his role so consistently.

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This happens over and over again. Viney is able to kill opposition clearances and also win his own off the back of this. He doesn't have the play designed for him as often as the attacking mids, but he can do it well if there is another defensive midfielder in the stoppage. For example, this stoppage involves Vandenberg. Viney is on Shiel (left) whilst AVB is blocking Merrett and Oliver is being defended. 

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Shiel is the opposition's best midfielder, but Viney is so good at winning the body battle in stoppages that the play can confidently predict he wins body position for the surprise attack. Oliver's man only has eyes for him, so Oliver just has to stay out of the way of Viney, whilst AVB just blocks Merrett away. The tap goes to the far side, which is easy to do when the opposition has Stewart in the ruck.

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It's an easy clearance in the end because of a terrible setup by Essendon. But the whole play depends on Viney winning body position, which he does. Usually he does it defensively for other players, but he can do it himself so reliably that sometimes they design plays for it. He has the quality to play both attacking and defensive.

The defensive midfielder is under-appreciated. Brayshaw has been given this responsibility at times, but he just doesn't do it to the level of Viney. You can see that, since Brayshaw went down late in the year, Melksham has been sent into the middle to play defensively. Oliver can do it at times, but he's a target man more often than not whilst Viney creates the space he can use. When Petracca is in there the ball is almost always going to him. Oliver is a rounded midfield but he doesn't play as a defensively minded stoppage midfielder like Viney. Viney is so important because he's so much better than the next best player in his role (Brayshaw, AVB and Melksham), and one of the best at it in the league. Plus, on top of that, he can be used offensively when required. There's a reason why a range of coaches love him every single year, but his style means that it doesn't always get its way on to the stats sheet.

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Great post. I need to watch more closely.

I do think we evolved our set up as the year went on though. Viney was deployed more defensively as the season progressed, but this could be explained by Brayshaw and Petracca not being good enough as those defensive players.

As you know, I think we should have played Harmes in there as well. And we likely will in 2021.

In the last two rounds we experimented a bit more with stoppage set ups. At least that is my observation. You can see how wide we set up against Essendon. It gave our burst mids (Oliver and Petracca, and even Viney) room to burst onto the ball.

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Reposting an idea:

Just for arguements sake, Jack viney does want to go to Geelong. I wonder if we can trade Preuss and 47 to Geelong for an OVERS (Tampering?) pick like their #17, on the promise that we don't match the UFA Viney bid and force a trade, then we also get compo on JV in the first round too I assume.

 

Then we have 11 or 19 (JV compo?) 17* (Geel) and 21 (Haw).

Thoughts?

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8 minutes ago, A F said:

I need to watch more closely.

It's really hard to pick up in real time unless you already know what's going to happen. I certainly wasn't able to do it and I previously thought exactly the same way as you did (basically all the way up until the B&F results came out). I just figured that Viney was the weak link and we probably would finction better without him. But then, once I actually looked closely, I realised that I was just completely wrong! I think you need to go over the footage a few times before you can see what's happening because there's so much going on in real time and your eyes get drawn to the footy.

I guess I needed to do something 'productive' during lockdown! ?

Edited by Axis of Bob
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13 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

It's really hard to pick up in real time unless you already know what's going to happen. I certainly wasn't able to do it and I previously thought exactly the same way as you did (basically all the way up until the B&F results came out). I just figured that Viney was the weak link and we probably would finction better without him. But then, once I actually looked closely, I realised that I was just completely wrong! I think you need to go over the footage a few times before you can see what's happening because there's so much going on in real time and your eyes get drawn to the footy.

I guess I needed to do something 'productive' during lockdown! ?

I noticed you posted this at 2amish. Haha. So that's great commitment. 

I'd propose one other thing. If Viney has yet to re-sign, you have to wonder what that's about. Why would he look elsewhere or why would we lowball him if he was doing such a great job? Let's just say that he's had a really solid season, but his contractual stuff does raise some question marks. You'd expect him to have re-signed months ago.

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9 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Reposting an idea:

Just for arguements sake, Jack viney does want to go to Geelong. I wonder if we can trade Preuss and 47 to Geelong for an OVERS (Tampering?) pick like their #17, on the promise that we don't match the UFA Viney bid and force a trade, then we also get compo on JV in the first round too I assume.

 

Then we have 11 or 19 JV compo, 17* (Geel) and 21 (Haw)

Each trade has to be signed off by the AFL (Ken Woods?) as being fair and reasonable. This wouldn't pass the test, unfortunately, and i highly doubt Geelong would bend over that easily to suit our demands. They might well just turn their attention to Crouch, and we'd be left to kiss and make up with Jack. Why would we match and potentially force him to stay? We'd still likely get a 1st rounder for him.

But as I've said a few times, stranger things have happened!

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30 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Reposting an idea:

Just for arguements sake, Jack viney does want to go to Geelong. I wonder if we can trade Preuss and 47 to Geelong for an OVERS (Tampering?) pick like their #17, on the promise that we don't match the UFA Viney bid and force a trade, then we also get compo on JV in the first round too I assume.

 

Then we have 11 or 19 (JV compo?) 17* (Geel) and 21 (Haw).

Thoughts?

 

14 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Each trade has to be signed off by the AFL (Ken Woods?) as being fair and reasonable. This wouldn't pass the test, unfortunately, and i highly doubt Geelong would bend over that easily to suit our demands. They might well just turn their attention to Crouch, and we'd be left to kiss and make up with Jack. Why would we match and potentially force him to stay? We'd still likely get a 1st rounder for him.

But as I've said a few times, stranger things have happened!

On points this is the equivalent of Preuss for pick 27. 

That isn't unreasonable even if it may be a bit overs. You could justify it like that. 

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1 hour ago, Axis of Bob said:

Yeah, just a few things. I don't have the figures but I'd suggest we are a very good centre bounce team and probably an average/below average general stoppage team. I think, generally, we set up our clearances primarily to not get scored against. We will often concede an extra number in the stoppage whilst our extra number is a fair way off the back of the stoppage. I think this is primarily because we don't mind conceding the territory as long as we don't concede scores, however this does usually result in 3 midfielders fighting for a clearance against 4 or 5. Also, I think Gawn's tap value is often overstated and we actually often look better when Jackson is rucking in stoppages around the ground, because he was able to even up the midfielder numbers around the ball whilst still allowing us to play an extra number off the back of the contest.

I would like to see our scores from stoppage vs scores conceded from stoppage. I'd say we're probably right near the top (although that's just an educated guess) of that. They're my thoughts but I'd be interested in others having a look themselves to see if they can dig down into it a bit more.

I'd suggest it's the opposite. Oliver's around the ground clearance numbers dwarf any other player in the league. We also often won the around the ground clearances, but lost the centre stoppages comfortably. 

I agree with your point RE: setting up our stoppages not to get scored against, but I'd argue this was mostly our aim from centre bounces, given the 6-6-6 and the inability to get natural numbers behind the ball. So a quick centre clearance is far more dangerous to the way we set up and zone off. 

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18 minutes ago, A F said:

I noticed you posted this at 2amish. Haha. So that's great commitment. 

I'd propose one other thing. If Viney has yet to re-sign, you have to wonder what that's about. Why would he look elsewhere or why would we lowball him if he was doing such a great job? Let's just say that he's had a really solid season, but his contractual stuff does raise some question marks. You'd expect him to have re-signed months ago.

We have a massive list of unsigned players, and have had no action on then all year. I suspect that we have been waiting on 2021 list sizes and salary cap discussion before committing to anything.

If I was Jack, regardless of where I wanted to play I would test the open market. I might not take a pay rise, I might not even use it to bargain, but why give up free information at the negotiating table, or the chamce of a freak once in a lifetime contract that just might tempt you?

I'd suspect he either has a contract or a ballpark in front of him, but we are all on hold.

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@Axis of Bob's post is exceptional work.

Contrary to what some think, it isn't just a cover for "Viney is a flawless midfielder". As other stats AoB's posted show, Viney turns it over a lot.

But none of our midfielders are flawless. Some of Oliver's clanger kicks this year were just absolutely terrible. But we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on Oliver because there are so many other things he does that are vital to our success.

This is the same argument for Viney. The difference is, unlike Oliver, most of us don't notice Viney's positive impact on the side live. So you just see the turnovers or the free kicks against for holding the ball. With Oliver, you see the clearances, quick handballs, etc. and you walk away from the game having seen how the positives outweigh the negatives.

AoB has given everyone the opportunity to reflect on their views on Viney and his role within the side. Some, like @A F, are genuinely taking that opportunity to reflect. Others are, clearly, not.

 

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49 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Each trade has to be signed off by the AFL (Ken Woods?) as being fair and reasonable. This wouldn't pass the test, unfortunately, and i highly doubt Geelong would bend over that easily to suit our demands. They might well just turn their attention to Crouch, and we'd be left to kiss and make up with Jack. Why would we match and potentially force him to stay? We'd still likely get a 1st rounder for him.

But as I've said a few times, stranger things have happened!

Demands is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking of this as a more amicable handshake agreement between two clubs that are on good terms trades wise.

Geelong and Adelaide came to a similarly amicable arrangment over the Dangerfield trade when he was a RFA. Adel didn't force it and Geelong agreed to giving 9, 30 and Dean gore. I think danger was actually at the forefront of making sure Adel were well compensated.

Geelong would be happy only giving up 17 for Viney, Preuss and 47 imo as a combo and avoiding a matched bid trade, and we'd be happier getting 17 and AFL compo. Preuss is anywhere between a 20-50 depending how desperate a club is, so overvaluing him slightly for the sake getting us an extra 1st round seems win/win for both parties 

11, 17 and 21. That's port Adelaide levels of injecting 3 top class kids into a team over the current 16-22 ranked players marginally AFL/VFL level. Think Rozee Butters Dursma! 

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21 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

TBH it's not something I take a massive amount of interest in, so not an expert by any stretch. My guess would be he would be on about $600k PA with a new contract. To me, that would seem about right for his BnF placings, age and leadership history.

Jack stays at around $600,000 with a clear understanding midfield minutes are gold and reputations mean nothing from here on in. Need to get more creative and be a link player. If someone is prepared to pay significantly more than, say $600,000 good luck for Jack and family.

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2 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

This is the exact opposite of everything anyone has ever told me about Viney. His B&F results over a long period across different coaches also strongly indicate that he is extremely coachable. 

There are legitimate faults in his game that can be rightly argued. He's not perfect. But this seems extremely unlikely to be one of those faults.

So why hasnt he addressed the glaring faults in his game??

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2 hours ago, deebug said:

If it has taken this long, then it seems more than likely Jack is gone.

 

Apart Petracca pre-covid and Pickett extending his base "rookie" contract I don't believe anyone else has re-signed throughout the year. Wouldn't surprise me if we await details from the AFL and AFLPA about list sizes and salary cap before making major re-signing announcements. 

Would love to get a contract in front of Rivers, Jackson, Petty, Fritsch, Sparrow and others but that's for another thread.

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1 hour ago, A F said:

I'd suggest it's the opposite. Oliver's around the ground clearance numbers dwarf any other player in the league. We also often won the around the ground clearances, but lost the centre stoppages comfortably. 

Interesting. I thought I'd try to get some basic stats to see how we rank. Luckily it's in footywire's advanced stats page.

And you're right, we average fewer centre clearances per game than our opponents (-0.4 pg - 11th best) but are ahead in stoppage clearances (+1.8 - 4th best). 

It's very curious, and something I might have to have a think about. Why are we so much better around the grounds than we are in the centre? Especially given a dominant ruck and a bunch of quality inside mids?

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1 minute ago, Axis of Bob said:

Interesting. I thought I'd try to get some basic stats to see how we rank. Luckily it's in footywire's advanced stats page.

And you're right, we average fewer centre clearances per game than our opponents (-0.4 pg - 11th best) but are ahead in stoppage clearances (+1.8 - 4th best). 

It's very curious, and something I might have to have a think about. Why are we so much better around the grounds than we are in the centre? Especially given a dominant ruck and a bunch of quality inside mids?

As you say very interesting

Could it be there is morre room and less structure at ball ups around the ground compared to Centre bounces?

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57 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Demands is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking of this as a more amicable handshake agreement between two clubs that are on good terms trades wise.

Geelong and Adelaide came to a similarly amicable arrangment over the Dangerfield trade when he was a RFA. Adel didn't force it and Geelong agreed to giving 9, 30 and Dean gore. I think danger was actually at the forefront of making sure Adel were well compensated.

Geelong would be happy only giving up 17 for Viney, Preuss and 47 imo as a combo and avoiding a matched bid trade, and we'd be happier getting 17 and AFL compo. Preuss is anywhere between a 20-50 depending how desperate a club is, so overvaluing him slightly for the sake getting us an extra 1st round seems win/win for both parties 

11, 17 and 21. That's port Adelaide levels of injecting 3 top class kids into a team over the current 16-22 ranked players marginally AFL/VFL level. Think Rozee Butters Dursma! 

Not as happy as giving up nothing for Viney.

Realistically, I've come to the belief that Preuss will get us a late 2nd rounder at best, which will end up at around 40 by the time bids are matched

I'd bare my rrse in Bourke St if Geelong agreed to your suggestion and the AFL ok'd it

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  • Casey Report      

    HIBERNATING by KC from Casey

    When they locked up the rooms for summer at the end of last year’s football season, the rooms gathered cobwebs, the atmosphere became dense and the place developed a sleepy feel. They opened up the rooms to let Casey out to play on Sunday but the team was still hibernating and they missed the bulk of the opening quarter ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • PreGame      

    PREGAME: Rd 03 vs Port Adelaide

    The Demons head out on the road for the next 2 weeks as they travel to Adelaide to play Port on Saturday and then have a 5 Day break before facing the Crows in Gather Round. With injuries to May and Lever who comes in and who goes out? ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 28

  • Match Report      

    A FORK IN THE HAWK by George on the Outer

    For too long in the past, Demon fans became habitually sick and tired of watching the Hawks hand out thrashings to their side. But Melbourne’s empahtic 55-point win at the MCG on Saturday has truly put a fork in the Hawk and turned that history well and truly on its head ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Post Game      

    POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons cruised to an easy 55 point win over the Hawks at the MCG but but paid a heavy toll on the injury front with Steven May & Jake Lever possibly sidelined for a number of weeks ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Votes      

    VOTES: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    Last week Steven May took the lead in the Demonland Player of the Year Award from Jack Viney. Clayton Oliver & Max Gawn round out the Top 4. Your votes for the win/loss against/to the Hawks. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Game Day      

    GAMEDAY: Round 02 vs Hawthorn

    It's Game Day and after mixed results in the first two weeks of the season the Demons have the opportunity to capitalise on their good form last week when they take on the Hawks at the MCG today ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Training  

    Friday, 22nd March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatcher Kev Martin and I attended the Captain's Run at Gosch's Paddock on this lovely sunny morning to bring you the following observations from the training session ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 22

  • Training  

    Tuesday, 19th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin & Walking Civil War attended Tuesday morning's training session at Gosch's Paddock to bring you the following observations ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 19

  • Training  

    Saturday, 16th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin and Dee Zephyr wandered down to Gosch's Paddock on Saturday morning to bring you their observations from the Captain's Run in the lead up to Sunday's Round One match against the Bulldogs ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 16

  • Farewell  

    Angus Brayshaw Retires

    After 167 games including the drought breaking Premiership Angus Brayshaw has made the heart breaking decision to medically retire from football as a result of a series of serious head knocks over his nearly decade of footy. We wish Gus all the best and he'll always be a hero at Demonland ... READ MORE

    Demonland | February 22

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Koltyn Tholstrup Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club’s newest recruit Koltyn Tholstrup to have a chat about his journey from the farm to the Demons, his first few weeks of preseason training, which Dees have impressed him on the track and his aspirations of playing Round 1 ... LISTEN

    Demonland | December 14

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Jason Taylor Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club's National Recruitment Manager Jason Taylor to have a chat about our Trade and Draft period, our newest recruits, our recent recruits who have yet to debut as well as those father son prospects on the horizon ... LISTEN

    Demonland | November 27

  • Next Match 

    .

    Round 03

       vs   

    Saturday 30th March 2024
    @ 07:30pm (AO)

  • MFC Forum  

  • Match Previews & Reports  

  • Training Forum  

  • AFLW Forum  

  • 2024 Player Sponsorship

  • Topics

  • Injury List  


      PLAYER INJURY LENGTH
    Jake Lever Knee Test
    Clayton Oliver Hand Test
    Oliver Sestan Concussion Test
    Steven May Ribs 1 Week
    Lachie Hunter Calf 1 Week
    Daniel Turner Hip 2-3 Weeks
    Charlie Spargo Achilles 2-4 Weeks
    Shane McAdam Hamstring 3-5 Weeks
    Jake Bowey Shoulder 7 Weeks
    Jake Melksham ACL 12-14 Weeks
    Joel Smith Suspension TBA

  • Player of the Year  


        PLAYER VOTES
    1 Christian Petracca 27
    2 Steven May 25
    3 Max Gawn 21
    4 Jack Viney 20
    5 Bayley Fritsch 19
    6 Clayton Oliver 18
    7 Christian Salem 12
    8 Blake Howes 11
    9 Jack Billings 10
    9 Alex Neal-Bullen 10

        FULL TABLE
  • Demonland Interviews 



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