On the Couch - The Red Zone

[spirit of norm smith 12,829]

9 hours ago, Hogan2014 said:

The sad part is players are actually running to the the right spots but the decision making is deplorable, it’s no wonder we get scored against on turnovers!

https://www.foxsports.com.au/video/afl/on-the-couch/red-mist-exposes-dees!778764

Yes Oliver’s last clanger was perfect example 

[spirit of norm smith 12,829]

9 hours ago, Hogan2014 said:

The sad part is players are actually running to the the right spots but the decision making is deplorable, it’s no wonder we get scored against on turnovers!

https://www.foxsports.com.au/video/afl/on-the-couch/red-mist-exposes-dees!778764

Gold. Obvious things we have SCREAMED about for a long time.  Goody should have analyzed this for the past 5 years. 

[titan_uranus 22,210]

The most obviously damning thing that comes out of the analysis is the way our mids move the ball.

The footage of Viney at the first bounce in the fourth quarter picking it up, haring off, failing to see Hannan free at the 50, kicking it up high and being intercepted by Richmond, is as demonstrative of our problems as any 5 second piece of footage you can find.

Yet half this thread turns into another Frost/Lever/May fight. 

[Nelo 813]

11 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

So looking at the Oppo Score per inside 50 stat we ranked 9th back in the competition with Frost and Omac as our main two key pillars down back. So realistically i look at that and go its not that bad actually.

We then go all out and spend big on Steven May only to see us actually rated 3rd last in the competition for this year on the big of just letting Sam Frost.

How does that even happen?

I don’t care how good they are, you should never give away first round draft picks, and a lot of them for key defenders. Mids and key forwards only. 

[napster 181]

9 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

Our gamestyle doesn't suit some of our players but with a few structural tweaks I believe we can improve significantly. First of which is getting rid of this "small forward" setup. It's been successful once - Richmond 2017 who fell into it by accident more than design. And they themselves knew it wasn't sustainable & moved heaven, earth & Collingwood to get Lynch from the Suns.

Agree, and furthermore, Richmond’s tall forward was Jack Riewoldt, a better all-round footballer than Tom Mac, and in much better form back then than the form TMac is currently in. Also, Riewoldt was supplemented by some strong-bodied medium sized forwards, such as Caddy and Townsend, unlike Fritsch, who gets pushed out of the contest too easily and isn’t suited to being a key target.

Then of course the Richmond small forwards were all highly skilled, apart from Castagna, with a midfield that hit targets.

Viney and Oliver are clearly liabilities by foot. They need to be removed from the midfield for now. If they can’t improve their kicking, trade them. Oliver 8th worst kick in comp!! Who are the 7 worst? Must all be diabolical. Presumably defenders, but could include either Viney or Ed Langdon. Where does Nick R get such stats from?

TMac/Brown to full forward. Weed to CHF. Salem to midfield. Simon Goodwin to Siberia.

[picket fence 15,040]

10 hours ago, DubDee said:

The worst part is that our key players were young and inexperienced in 2018 and should be a lot BETTER now, not worse.  they are hitting the 100+ game, mid-twenties sweet spot.  Only Petracca is getting better

Skills cannot have gotten worse for this group, I just don't bloody get it

I DO

1 The Coach cannot

2 The strategy doesnt work and there is no plan B,C,D

3 We recruit players which have poor skills and play them ( to the detriment of say a HARLEY BENNELL) 

4 Coach refuses to play at least 2 if not three talls because ...go back to piont 2 

5 I agree with Lyon, Schwarta eta al are spot on

6 Club is tetering and the fact we wont get a 1st round pick was arrogant and negligent bargaining.

[Demon3 2,541]

Its just a mess. One big wasteful, unfulfilled mess. Goodwin is simply our of his depth.. and he is stubborn and pig headed. He wants a small fwd line.. but Melksham, Hannan, Trac et al are not small, its hardly a mosquito fleet..  They are mobile marking HFFs.. they come into play when the ball is being delivered to them.. on a lead at about 5-70m out.. which opens the fwd line allowing Tom or bigger fwd to lead into space.. instead the ball goes in so badly that they are not utilised. I just cant believe the attitude from the FD on this stuff.

i agree with some of what Ox says, but i dont think irrelevant is it.. we have owned the media landscape since Sunday 6pm.. irrelevant clubs dont do that. 

[jnrmac 18,913]

Then lets change the midfield.

If they aren't doing what they are supposed to put in  Harmes, Brayshaw, Chandler Dunkley etc 

Oliver & Viney take a rest

[Scoop Junior 2,963]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

The most obviously damning thing that comes out of the analysis is the way our mids move the ball.

The footage of Viney at the first bounce in the fourth quarter picking it up, haring off, failing to see Hannan free at the 50, kicking it up high and being intercepted by Richmond, is as demonstrative of our problems as any 5 second piece of footage you can find.

Yet half this thread turns into another Frost/Lever/May fight. 

Spot on.

If we can just get some poise and composure in the way we move the ball forward it would not only lead to 3-4 extra goals per week but also stop the resulting turnover and the opposition then being able to rebound the ball.

When you are matching or beating the opposition in most other areas of the game, this can be the difference between winning and losing.

 

[drdrake 3,035]

The issue with the point about going to fast, when we try to slow the game down and keep the footy we turn it over.  

We go inside 50 enough to win games, the issue is we always go in to a massive out number, we don't have a side way or short option as all our loose players are with in 5m of the contest, that is our game style.

In 2018 we played the same way but we controlled the ball from the contest our spread was a great, no we just have 3-4 handballs with in the 5m of the contest we don't seem to be able to find that over lap space.  We then bomb long the the waiting out number.

Every team knows how to beat us, it is easy, your back 6 stay across Half Back and rebound quick once we turn the footy over, do something different hold your forward 6, back your mids to win the footy and at least make our forward 50 entries a contest and even more so give us a chance to keep the ball in there.

[Demon17 4,519]

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

I think Viney knows he often cannot kick the required distance, say 40-45 and does not want to embaress himself trying.

Insightful comment HFF.  Time and again his kicking style with head down betrays his lack of penetration. Great heart so if he can fix his decision making to suit his strengths he's worth persevering with.

The vision on Footy Classified showed a great example last night of Viney breaking away, Mitch Hannan in the clear 25 m away and in a scoring position yet Jack I suspect didn't even see the opportunity and bombed it long. 

Its not his fault BTW - its team development that has let him down

Dusty would have 

[titan_uranus 22,210]

3 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

Insightful comment HFF.  Time and again his kicking style with head down betrays his lack of penetration. Great heart so if he can fix his decision making to suit his strengths he's worth persevering with.

The vision on Footy Classified showed a great example last night of Viney breaking away, Mitch Hannan in the clear 25 m away and in a scoring position yet Jack I suspect didn't even see the opportunity and bombed it long. 

Its not his fault BTW - its team development that has let him down

Dusty would have 

I don't agree.

It's a shared responsibility.

Viney's been doing this for years. That wasn't a one-off. 

The onus is on players like Viney, who are our "core", to work on their failures.

It is also on the coaches to identify these failings and work with individual players, and the team as a whole, to stop them from occurring.

[Demon3 2,541]

19 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Then lets change the midfield.

If they aren't doing what they are supposed to put in  Harmes, Brayshaw, Chandler Dunkley etc 

Oliver & Viney take a rest

I agree change it up, Oliver and Viney are competitors.. Rest Jack in the fwd pocket, put Clayton down fwd.. they look like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.. give them a circuit breaker.. i love Jacks Competitiveness... but it cant come at the risk of repeat turnovers. Same with Clayton.

[dieter 3,325]

The three instances quoted in the discussion - all in the first ten minutes or so - were the instances I brought up in the 'Sack Goodwin' topic. I also mad ethe point that with players like VIney, it's bloody hard to 'coach' that blind instinctivity out of them. Ditto, the kicking capacity of Langdon. The players themselves have responsibility to fix these things.

[binman 37,724]

12 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

yep, but their workrate has dropped off enormously in two years

and yr right - it's not JUST the mids, it's the mids, the forwards, and the defenders

everyone has fallen off the proverbial cliff, petracca aside

Agree.

The forwards get let off the hook a bit in terms of work rate. The all team defense pretty much all teams employ these days (which is a the heart of the low scoring) requires just that - every player to work hard defensively. To do that forwards, in addition to manic defensive pressure inside our 50 have to be able to push right up the ground to help out defensively and then sprint back when we win the ball. 

Players like melksham are just are not doing that. Nor is is Tmac this last year or his year. is it fitness or work ethic?

I suspect  part of the logic of not having weed in the team (and having smaller forward line) is i don't reckon he is fir enough, and/or athletic to the running required. TMac did but doesn't ATM. I wonder if Brown does?  If he does i'd bring him in.

This running is one of the key things we have missed with Hogan. In 208 him and Tmac were up and down the ground all day. As was a fit Hannan and in the finals VDB

 

 

[Pennant St Dee 11,241]

13 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I don't agree.

It's a shared responsibility.

Viney's been doing this for years. That wasn't a one-off. 

The onus is on players like Viney, who are our "core", to work on their failures.

It is also on the coaches to identify these failings and work with individual players, and the team as a whole, to stop them from occurring.

Either that or play to your players strengths. I get the Fritsch move to the backline last season out of necessity, but Goody for the sake of his head coaching career needs to stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

Lever is a zoning off interceptor so play him as one and don't have Max floating back behind every ball as the intercept

Harmes has been very damaging through the middle play him there and make Viney your principal tagger. Play Gawn, Harmes, Trac, Brayshaw as your starting centreline. Rotate Clarrie through there whilst also consider sending him forward to play Vanders role.

Play forwards who will lead hard up the ground and free up space inside forward 50 to create channels for the others to lead into and if they want to play a loose defender sitting in the hole don't play on hit little 20m passes on the 45 to work into space until someone finds space.

It's up to him and the players as a collective to work this out

[binman 37,724]

21 minutes ago, drdrake said:

 

In 2018 we played the same way but we controlled the ball from the contest our spread was a great, no we just have 3-4 handballs with in the 5m of the contest we don't seem to be able to find that over lap space.  We then bomb long the the waiting out number.

 

Agree,

The other issue is the game has changed, with all teams now employing much more aggressive zones and all team defence. This means that we are more frequently kicking into a crowded forward line where there is n out number. That was happening in 2018 but not to the same extent.

And into that mix you can add that in 2018 we had two of the best big forwards in the game in hogan and Tmac, an in form Melksham and Hannan and in the finals VDB.

The other thing is that last year and this year all teams are now employing a deep back/sweeper to stop the out the back goal (think of how dew you see no, in any game).

And of course tempo footy has become the norm. Hard to play manic, play on footy when the opposition is playing mogodon ball.

[Ouch! 2,034]

I recall Nathan Jones in the early part of his career was worse than Viney and Oliver in terms of just throwing the ball onto his boot, bombing it and turning it over. Younger players, especially those in inside mid roles appear to panic more and don't realise the amount of time they have, or look for making more space, or raise their eyes to look for different options.

Oliver is a little different in that he is aware of options around him, but doesn't appear to recognise whether that option is actually better than disposing it by foot, the number of handballs he dishes off that go to another mid who isn't ready for the ball or has an opponent still frustrates me.

Teams are also now reading off Gawn rather than their own ruck given his dominance now too, which means our mids have more pressure as he feeds the ball out

Personally I feel our gamestyle is capable of work when coupled with good disposal,... but lets be honest that's a given for all teams. However our manic style of play is fairly predictable in countering from a defensive perspective when it's not working. I think there is much about our gamestyle that does work well, essentially the biggest flaw is the final point of execution inside 50. I don't know if that is just disposal... or forward patterns, or mids with blinkers on in a red haze... likely a bit of all of that.

How we go from the highest scoring team to one of the lowest in 18 months is beyond me!!! how did it break that fast?

[Lord Travis 10,135]

I've been banging on about the midfield on here, saying it's unbalanced and we have too many see ball get ball types who completely lack poise and effective disposal skills. I also recommended trading Viney or Brayshaw out for a more rounded midfielder to achieve better balance. There are plenty of clubs like Essendon who desperately need contested inside ball winners and would pay for them. 

It would be hard to say goodbye to loved players, but tough calls need to be made. If they're not, then we continue to be a bottom four side and sit through another rebuild.

[Lucifers Hero 36,973]

21 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Either that or play to your players strengths. I get the Fritsch move to the backline last season out of necessity, but Goody for the sake of his head coaching career needs to stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

Lever is a zoning off interceptor so play him as one and don't have Max floating back behind every ball as the intercept

Harmes has been very damaging through the middle play him there and make Viney your principal tagger. Play Gawn, Harmes, Trac, Brayshaw as your starting centreline. Rotate Clarrie through there whilst also consider sending him forward to play Vanders role.

Play forwards who will lead hard up the ground and free up space inside forward 50 to create channels for the others to lead into and if they want to play a loose defender sitting in the hole don't play on hit little 20m passes on the 45 to work into space until someone finds space.

It's up to him and the players as a collective to work this out

100% on all that. 

Re fwds:  hard to do when we don't have a fwd coach or any coaches with fwd experience.  Plapp, Stafford and Lewis all have a bit of the fwd coach role but some parts entirely missing from any portfolio.  They are deliberate outcomes of last years review.  No one responsible or accountable.  Too many cooks in the kitchen! 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Dr. Gonzo 22,390]

3 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

I've been banging on about the midfield on here, saying it's unbalanced and we have too many see ball get ball types who completely lack poise and effective disposal skills. I also recommended trading Viney or Brayshaw out for a more rounded midfielder to achieve better balance. There are plenty of clubs like Essendon who desperately need contested inside ball winners and would pay for them. 

It would be hard to say goodbye to loved players, but tough calls need to be made. If they're not, then we continue to be a bottom four side and sit through another rebuild.

Agreed. The other thing about the see ball get ball types is they don't spread once we do win the footy - for all the praise we get for being a good contested side our structure around the stoppages is terrible. That's why we often handball to someone under the pump etc because they are running alongside the ball carrier instead of moving out 5 meytes to stretch the opposition defence around the contest. I think it was Good Coast who did this really well a few times on the weekend - they have players ready to go 5-10 metres off where the player who wins the ball is standing and they move it quickly with 2 or 3 handballs to get the kicker into space. Our guys handball 2 or 3 times within a phonebox and then bang it on the boot without looking because the kicker is still under pressure to get rid of the footy. This comes with composure and not manic "attack the footy" mentality.

[drdrake 3,035]

6 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

100% on all that. 

Re fwds:  hard to do when we don't have a fwd coach or any coaches with fwd experience.  Plapp, Stafford and Lewis all have a bit of the fwd coach role but some parts entirely missing from any portfolio.  They are deliberate outcomes of last years review.  No one responsible or accountable.  Too many cooks in the kitchen! 

We only play at best a 4 man forward line, until we even this up our forwards will struggle.  The hole idea is we win the ball at the contest maintain possession until we can get enough players forward to even up the out number.  The issue is we win the ball handball, handball, handball and handball, each handball creates more pressure that either leads to a turnover at the contest or a bomb to the outnumbered forward line.

Play forwards forward and element 2-3 of the handballs and if we are forced to bomb it long it isn't to an out numbered forward line, then have your forwards working hard to compete and locking the ball inside 50m or scoring, the issue is we don't do either at the moment, ball goes in comes out with speed and over lap that leads to our back 6 and mids having no chance to defend.

That is our No1 issue and until we fix this we are stuffed

[jumbo returns 6,484]

Clayton Oliver is a star and may yet win a Brownlow

[Engorged Onion 9,215]

1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Either that or play to your players strengths. I get the Fritsch move to the backline last season out of necessity, but Goody for the sake of his head coaching career needs to stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

Lever is a zoning off interceptor so play him as one and don't have Max floating back behind every ball as the intercept

Harmes has been very damaging through the middle play him there and make Viney your principal tagger. Play Gawn, Harmes, Trac, Brayshaw as your starting centreline. Rotate Clarrie through there whilst also consider sending him forward to play Vanders role.

Play forwards who will lead hard up the ground and free up space inside forward 50 to create channels for the others to lead into and if they want to play a loose defender sitting in the hole don't play on hit little 20m passes on the 45 to work into space until someone finds space.

It's up to him and the players as a collective to work this out

I really like your analysis @Pennant St Dee .

My question about Goodwin and co, is what does he genuinely see as our strengths, and what system is he trying to play, and how  does he see these strengths complimenting the style of play. 

Coaches are not THAT arrogant to pursue a plan when it's obvious that it doesn't work over a 20 something game period. (besides there are a range of other staff that have input).

Are they all drinking the Goodwin kool-aid? Is Goodwin an adversarial kind of leader? Do they all legitimately believe the game style will work with continuity of time together?

The stats that were pulled up last night, would have been available into last season for them...so aside from the optics of what we/they see on tv and at the ground, that data would have been front and centre for a long time.

So what is it that they all see, that perhaps we can't? And beyond commentary around his stubbornness, why is it persisted with?

Edited July 7, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 hour ago, Demon3 said:

I agree change it up, Oliver and Viney are competitors.. Rest Jack in the fwd pocket, put Clayton down fwd.. they look like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.. give them a circuit breaker.. i love Jacks Competitiveness... but it cant come at the risk of repeat turnovers. Same with Clayton.

Discussed the very same idea with my son last night. You would need a good player to mind Oliver and Jack can concentrate on being a second rover who gets some mid time but values every minute of it. Its been poor development that win lose or draw jack heads to the middle at the start of every game.