POSTGAME: Rd 05 vs Richmond

[58er 5,593]

4 minutes ago, poita said:

A largely inept performance by a playing group severely lacking in basic football skills and game sense. Only Petracca has consistently elevated himself above the malaise this season.

Goodwin needs to take responsibility on three accounts:

1. He is asking this group to play a style of football that is above their capabilities.

2. Every player on this list has either been recruited by or re-signed by him.

3. He won't select the players necessary to play this style of football, eg key forwards and good kickers.

As for the players:

May - solid again defensively, but his kicking, which I generally rate, has been woeful this year.

Salem - an over rated, under achieving, selfish footballer.

Harmes - we looked better when he played midfield. Just leave him there, Goodwin.

Petracca - a class above every other player on the ground.

Viney - King Dumb Dumb of all the dumb footballers on our list. Is less of a player than he was in round 1, 2013.

Lever - the opposition's best defensive forward. His work to consistently spoil May & Gawn is first rate.

Brayshaw - another who is currently being wasted on the periphery.

Gawn - solid, but hardly dominant, against mediocre opposition. His lazy kicking is unacceptable.

Oliver - looks to be a confused, over coached player. Just let him do his own thing.

Hibberd - best game for three years.

Langdon - works hard for little result.

Melksham - a selfish, lazy and arrogant footballer. Should have been dropped last week and must be this week.

Hannan - needs to maintain current level of hard work.

Tomlinson - should be embarrassed by his lack of physicality and competitiveness. A major disappointment.

Vandenberg - Lacking match fitness and skills have not improved.

Rivers - has looked out of his depth in past two weeks, but we have to persist.

McDonald - we've bulked him up, now we push him back up the field? The mind boggles.

Hunt - a waste of space when he won't put his body on the line.

Fritsch - looked much better playing half forward.

Pickett - looks like a auskicker playing against men. Has developed some awful habits in the past fortnight.

Lockhart - a mediocre footballer who has had all the flair of his first year coached out of him.

Smith - an athlete with no football nous. Only useful running in straight lines.

Very good summary Poita especially the Goodwin summary.

[Demon Dynasty 15,211]

4 minutes ago, poita said:

A largely inept performance by a playing group severely lacking in basic football skills and game sense. Only Petracca has consistently elevated himself above the malaise this season.

Goodwin needs to take responsibility on three accounts:

1. He is asking this group to play a style of football that is above their capabilities.

2. Every player on this list has either been recruited by or re-signed by him.

3. He won't select the players necessary to play this style of football, eg key forwards and good kickers.

As for the players:

May - solid again defensively, but his kicking, which I generally rate, has been woeful this year.

Salem - an over rated, under achieving, selfish footballer.

Harmes - we looked better when he played midfield. Just leave him there, Goodwin.

Petracca - a class above every other player on the ground.

Viney - King Dumb Dumb of all the dumb footballers on our list. Is less of a player than he was in round 1, 2013.

Lever - the opposition's best defensive forward. His work to consistently spoil May & Gawn is first rate.

Brayshaw - another who is currently being wasted on the periphery.

Gawn - solid, but hardly dominant, against mediocre opposition. His lazy kicking is unacceptable.

Oliver - looks to be a confused, over coached player. Just let him do his own thing.

Hibberd - best game for three years.

Langdon - works hard for little result.

Melksham - a selfish, lazy and arrogant footballer. Should have been dropped last week and must be this week.

Hannan - needs to maintain current level of hard work.

Tomlinson - should be embarrassed by his lack of physicality and competitiveness. A major disappointment.

Vandenberg - Lacking match fitness and skills have not improved.

Rivers - has looked out of his depth in past two weeks, but we have to persist.

McDonald - we've bulked him up, now we push him back up the field? The mind boggles.

Hunt - a waste of space when he won't put his body on the line.

Fritsch - looked much better playing half forward.

Pickett - looks like a auskicker playing against men. Has developed some awful habits in the past fortnight.

Lockhart - a mediocre footballer who has had all the flair of his first year coached out of him.

Smith - an athlete with no football nous. Only useful running in straight lines.

Pretty fair summary Poita.  I can't see a place for Tomo if Bennell ever gets back.  Surely he and or / Fritchskreig goes to Tomo's wing.

Tomo trialled at CHB or maybe even CHF?

Personally i would trial him at CHB.  Push May to CHF and bring O-Mac in for Smith.  Bennell to HF or wing.  Alternating with Fritsch maybe.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

It's difficult not to be a little deflated after this game.  I thought we looked okay in the first half, and it seemed we had actually instituted a couple of changes (such as pushing Fritsch further up the ground to make use of foot skills), but the second term was a return to the norm for us.  We broke even in the other three quarters, but were undone by a horror of a second quarter.

We are still doing some things well as part of the way Goodwin wants us to play - we are getting our hands on it in contested situations well, we are generating inside 50s and, even though we were slightly worse this week, our defence is still pretty good (even though it's difficult for them to hold the Tigers at bay when the ball is sling shotted on the rebound as much as it was).

However, forward of centre is an absolute mess.  I thought Tom gave us more this weekend but he's being asked to do way too much on his own as the only tall forward on the park.  We are carrying three players down there at the minute - Melksham is in career worst form and is giving us next to nothing, even though he hit the scoreboard this week, Hunt is increasingly looking like someone who is not up to AFL standard, and Vanders looks a mile off it.  When you factor in Rivers and Kozzie being a little quieter this week, you get a side that is struggling for consistency and one that finds it tough to find a way to goal.  

Goody can't ignore this problem any longer.  He needs to suck up his pride, put his stubborness aside and make a few changes.  We need an extra tall in there and he needs to shift some of the players around down there.  One of Jackson, Weideman and Brown should come on, while ANB, Bennell and even a Toby Bedford need to get a look in at the expense of a few players as well.

It's not all doom and gloom for me, but we're clearly not a top eight side at the minute and we are struggling in some areas that should have been addressed by now.  I've been happy to back Goody in to make these changes but he I'm quickly running out of patience.

[titan_uranus 22,220]

7 hours ago, bing181 said:

Irrelevant when regardless of what happens YOU TURN THE BALL OVER.

Though even in this you're ignoring the obvious: they ARE being taught all that - but they just can't execute it. At least not for enough of a game to make a difference.

It's both, bing.

It's both poor coaching and poorly skilled players.

Goodwin can't kick the ball for them, but he holds responsibility for poor decision-making and our inability to compose ourselves under pressure. Not full responsibility, but some responsibility.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

43 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Howled down? Hardly. I thought we had a good discussion about that, and I showed plenty of respect for your position. No need to act like a petulant child. 

You said he was up to AFL standard and ready to go and took umbrage at the suggestion he was ‘gifted’ games based on potential. Yesterday was another example of him not having any influence or output. It’s not his fault. He is a kid. You asked me who I’d have ahead of him. I am saying Bennell right now is ahead of him by a fair way, even at 50% game time. He doesn’t have the great positioning right night and with Hunt being equally out of his depth as a forward pocket, we are not playing our best 22. That was the point I made. 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

1 minute ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

You said he was up to AFL standard and ready to go and took umbrage at the suggestion he was ‘gifted’ games based on potential. Yesterday was another example of him not having any influence or output. It’s not his fault. He is a kid. You asked me who I’d have ahead of him. I am saying Bennell right now is ahead of him by a fair way, even at 50% game time. He doesn’t have the great positioning right night and with Hunt being equally out of his depth as a forward pocket, we are not playing our best 22. That was the point I made. 

Great, and I recall saying right off the bat that it's your opinion and I respect that.  I did not 'howl you down'.  I thought it was a good, back and forth discussion.  If that's your definition of being 'howled down' then I'd hate to see how you feel during a proper argument.

Kozzie aint the problem.  Neither are Rivers or Lockhart.  I'd be dropping Melksham, Hunt and AVB before I look at dropping Kozzie.  He at least puts some pressure on.  Those three did little of that yesterday.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

7 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Great, and I recall saying right off the bat that it's your opinion and I respect that.  I did not 'howl you down'.  I thought it was a good, back and forth discussion.  If that's your definition of being 'howled down' then I'd hate to see how you feel during a proper argument.

Kozzie aint the problem.  Neither are Rivers or Lockhart.  I'd be dropping Melksham, Hunt and AVB before I look at dropping Kozzie.  He at least puts some pressure on.  Those three did little of that yesterday.

Agree with you on all points and have made the same suggestions. Disagree on Lockhart. While he didnt have the mistake riddled game of the week before, he had no obvious matchup and added little yesterday, but then again, maybe it was the coaching again. I’ve seen him play forward and they could have been toyed with yesterday. As it stands today though, Kozzie is an elite kid which has yet to translate to AFL level performance. Goodwin in his presser of last week when explaining Bennell said he had things to work on in his game and when the Rd 2 side was selected, Pickett and AVB weren’t available for selection. So he has inferred that those two are ahead of Bennell, which is complete bulldust.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Leoncelli_36

[Mel Bourne 3,604]

1 hour ago, Vineytime said:

I understand your point I just have a different opinion. 
Not many players improve their field kicking during their career, look at our perennial offenders for example- Hunt, Viney, Brayshaw, Oliver even Langdon. 

And I get your point too, but I think some of our poor-kicking could be improved by addressing other aspects of the game rather than kicking technique itself. Namely composure, decision-making and a genuine lack of targets. I think certain players are actually getting worse at kicking because the confidence, conviction and intent behind so many kicks is simply missing. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Mel Bourne

[Clintosaurus 6,411]

39 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Couldn’t agree more. Intensity is not just physical.  We need mental intensity.  Concentration.  To kick it properly.  To make the right decision.  To use handball creatively.  That’s seriously lacking. It’s not lack of confidence.  It’s the foundation skills and decision to then execute it. 

The skills are there. We just do not see them enough. Every player makes mistakes, even the very best. It is all about limiting how many times, and that is a mental thing.

Some of the passages of play yesterday were excellent. The May kick in ending in Melksham goaling being the prime example.

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,395]

19 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

It's difficult not to be a little deflated after this game.  I thought we looked okay in the first half, and it seemed we had actually instituted a couple of changes (such as pushing Fritsch further up the ground to make use of foot skills), but the second term was a return to the norm for us.  We broke even in the other three quarters, but were undone by a horror of a second quarter.

We are still doing some things well as part of the way Goodwin wants us to play - we are getting our hands on it in contested situations well, we are generating inside 50s and, even though we were slightly worse this week, our defence is still pretty good (even though it's difficult for them to hold the Tigers at bay when the ball is sling shotted on the rebound as much as it was).

However, forward of centre is an absolute mess.  I thought Tom gave us more this weekend but he's being asked to do way too much on his own as the only tall forward on the park.  We are carrying three players down there at the minute - Melksham is in career worst form and is giving us next to nothing, even though he hit the scoreboard this week, Hunt is increasingly looking like someone who is not up to AFL standard, and Vanders looks a mile off it.  When you factor in Rivers and Kozzie being a little quieter this week, you get a side that is struggling for consistency and one that finds it tough to find a way to goal.  

Goody can't ignore this problem any longer.  He needs to suck up his pride, put his stubborness aside and make a few changes.  We need an extra tall in there and he needs to shift some of the players around down there.  One of Jackson, Weideman and Brown should come on, while ANB, Bennell and even a Toby Bedford need to get a look in at the expense of a few players as well.

It's not all doom and gloom for me, but we're clearly not a top eight side at the minute and we are struggling in some areas that should have been addressed by now.  I've been happy to back Goody in to make these changes but he I'm quickly running out of patience.

100% agree with this.

Other Demons mates have been bagging Goody for weeks and I've been trying to back him. He is running out of time though, as we just keep doing the same thing over and over and over.

Part of me actually hopes Viney goes with free agency, we need to change up our midfield and I think Harmes is a better player and should be in there full time.

Oliver & Salem need to pull their fingers out. Look like a couple of blokes who love their own work.

Brayshaw also being wasted as he is the only mid outside of Trac and Harmes who looks half decent.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

Lever.. Anyone else think Frosty was let go because he was an embaressment to the recruiting of Lever. 

[jnrmac 18,914]

8 hours ago, bing181 said:

The logical extension of this argument is that you could take Koo Wee Rup seconds and turn them into an AFL-capable side just by a) good coaching and b) adjusting the game plan around their weaknesses.

If you don't have the cattle or the skills, coaching and game plans are irrelevant.

Sorry but this is rubbish. You don't get to AFL level without hard work and skills. And this is where comments like yours are mistaken. A good coach would make this team hum.

Bad coaching confuses players. They don't know what to do with ball in hand. They take the wrong options because they don't play on instinct, they play on 'I'm told to do this and if I don't do it I'll get dropped' They don't trust each other, they don't honour leads, they don't run to space, they start playing selfish football.

When players don't believe in or trust the coach or game plan their behaviour is similar to what you see from melbourne.

Goodwin isn't telling 4 defenders to jump and spoil the ball but the message is confused and players respond accordingly. That is the players but it is the coaching that needs to be changed. The messaging is wrong.

And another thing, you can't tell me that a guy who speaks monotone bulltish 14/7 can inspire players. He would send insomniacs to sleep.

You have seen like me, many times when a coach is sacked and the shackles are released teams play with dash freedom and vigour. Witness St Kilda, Brisbane and Carlton after the sacked Bolton and installed Teague.

Richmond were turnover merchants for years until they grew confidence in theor game plan and started trusting their fellow team mates.

It's ALL about the coaching

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by jnrmac

[Wiseblood 24,636]

20 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Sorry but this is rubbish. You don't get to AFL level without hard work and skills. And this is where comments like yours are mistaken. A good coach would make this team hum.

 

 

I'll admit that I don't agree with you often jnr, but on this part I do.  

How many 'good' coaches are out there?  Not many.  The good ones are hard to get out of their current club, while there are some good unknowns waiting in the wings... but you have to choose wisely.

I have no doubt that a good coach would have us playing far, far better in the forward half than what we are doing now.  Is that a simple change of assistant coaches, or do we need to flick Goodwin and look elsewhere?  Time will tell.  At the defensive end we look pretty solid and well set up.  It looks very, very average in the forward half.  Fix that and we're a much better side, but how we fix that is the issue.

[jnrmac 18,914]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

I'll admit that I don't agree with you often jnr, but on this part I do.  

How many 'good' coaches are out there?  Not many.  The good ones are hard to get out of their current club, while there are some good unknowns waiting in the wings... but you have to choose wisely.

I have no doubt that a good coach would have us playing far, far better in the forward half than what we are doing now.  Is that a simple change of assistant coaches, or do we need to flick Goodwin and look elsewhere?  Time will tell.  At the defensive end we look pretty solid and well set up.  It looks very, very average in the forward half.  Fix that and we're a much better side, but how we fix that is the issue.

there's a first time for everything

Roos aside we haven't had an experienced coach since Northey in 1992.

Why do we keep going with untried 'flavour of the month' rookies?

I reckon most coaches are better second time around altho I don't have the stats to back that up. It seems that experience is shunned in AFL coaching circles. Ratten has immediately got the Saints playing better football.

 

[frankie_d 1,407]

10 hours ago, Beetle said:

The team in 87/88 had the drive under Northey. Those players busted their backsides and played for each other. They were tough, hard and driven.

Sadly they just lacked the overall natural talent and polish of the Carlton and Hawthorn sides of that era.

We punched well above our weight, but those boys weren’t just happy to be in the comp, they wanted to win.

100% correct. I was sitting in front of the old coaches box at the 'G when someone didn't "go when it was his turn" on the far wing. Northey was on the phone to the runner, turning the air blue. "Tell that f'wit that he's just let all his mates down! They've worked their f'ing asses off getting the ball over there and he's too f'ing weak to go. Tell him! Tell him exactly that!!"

We knew the boys were giving 200% every time they went out - they NEVER gave up, and usually found a way.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Harmes needs to play 70% midfield time at a minimum. Has more pace and football smarts than Oliver and Viney. He was a big reason we had a good 2018. The dumb FD decision to try him as a back man has been a bust, much like the Fritta down back call in 2019. Salem needs to be brought up the ground as he is usually a good user, although some may question that based on recent form. 
 

We must play a second tall in the forward line, just for those occasions when Oliver and Viney win ball in the middle and blast inside 50. At a minimum, this gives us a chance to compete. At the moment we have all the mid sized forwards flying for the aerial ball and therefore no one on the deck to rove. 
 

It’s all kind of redundant though, as the team clearly is lacking spirit and have been confused by Goodwin’s game plan. I agree with Gary Lyon, when he says that the manic game style is not suited to our playing list. That is pretty obvious. We aren’t able to go slow

[Demons11 6,404]

Was there a reserves game on the weekend? 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

18 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

there's a first time for everything

Roos aside we haven't had an experienced coach since Northey in 1992.

Why do we keep going with untried 'flavour of the month' rookies?

I reckon most coaches are better second time around altho I don't have the stats to back that up. It seems that experience is shunned in AFL coaching circles. Ratten has immediately got the Saints playing better football.

 

Fair point re: the rookies.  Neeld, Bailey, Goodwin, even Daniher.  

Taking out coaches currently in a job, who would you put in place if Goodwin were moved on?

Rookie coaches aren't always bad, though.  They are all rookies at the start of their coaching careers.  I'd say we just haven't made the right choices over the years.  Roos put us in the right direction, and Goodwin went with that well in his first few years, but the challenges we now face are going to be career defining for him. 

[Demons11 6,404]

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

Lever.. Anyone else think Frosty was let go because he was an embaressment to the recruiting of Lever. 

??‍♂️

[Lucifers Hero 36,983]

12 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Bringing May in at the end of 2018 was the right call. We'd just come off a year of being the highest scoring side with a shocking defence. 

The problem wasn't bringing in May, it's that we knew we needed to make TMac and Weideman work and we've failed, so much so that we're not even playing Weideman despite crying out for him.

Help me out here t-u.  We knew by the end of 2019 that TMac and Weideman wasn't working and our fwd line was dysfunctional so I am baffled as to why we didn't fix it then.   

Recruiting Brown was a band-aid.  Jackson could not possibly have an impact for a year or two.  So no effective change to Tall Forwards to impact 2020.

We did not recruit a Fwd Coach.  Instead we hoped that extending Stafford's responsibilities to include 'goal kicking' and recruiting Lewis for skills development would solve the problems.   They haven't.

And to compound things further, we have no-one on our coaching panel that has ever played as or coached forwards. 

And now we are 'experimenting' with our fwd line set-up.  Clutching at straws!

My conclusion is that on and off the field our forward line 'solutions' have been piecemeal at best. 

So to hear Goodwin say efficiency i50 is poor and we lack fwd/mid connection/cohesion drives me mad.  He is the architect of the above decisions. 

And going by his press conf yesterday he doesn't know how to fix the problems.  Its like they are clutching at straws and some serious praying.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

20 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Harmes needs to play 70% midfield time at a minimum. Has more pace and football smarts than Oliver and Viney. He was a big reason we had a good 2018. The dumb FD decision to try him as a back man has been a bust, much like the Fritta down back call in 2019. Salem needs to be brought up the ground as he is usually a good user, although some may question that based on recent form. 
 

We must play a second tall in the forward line, just for those occasions when Oliver and Viney win ball in the middle and blast inside 50. At a minimum, this gives us a chance to compete. At the moment we have all the mid sized forwards flying for the aerial ball and therefore no one on the deck to rove. 
 

It’s all kind of redundant though, as the team clearly is lacking spirit and have been confused by Goodwin’s game plan. I agree with Gary Lyon, when he says that the manic game style is not suited to our playing list. That is pretty obvious. We aren’t able to go slow

suited our list in 2018. I would then ask what is the style to suit our list? its certainly not slow and steady as we don't have the foot skills.

 

 

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

Just now, Lucifer's Hero said:

Help me out here t-u.  We knew by the end of 2019 that TMac and Weideman wasn't working and our fwd line was dysfunctional so I am baffled as to why we didn't fix it then.   

Recruiting Brown was a band-aid.  Jackson could not possibly have an impact for a year or two.  So no effective change to Tall Forwards to impact 2020.

We did not recruit a Fwd Coach.  Instead we hoped that extending Stafford's responsibilities to include 'goal kicking' and recruiting Lewis for skills development would solve the problems.   They haven't.

And to compound things further, we have no-one on our coaching panel that has ever played as or coached forwards. 

And now we are 'experimenting' with our fwd line set-up. 

My conclusion is that on and off the field our forward line 'solutions' have been piecemeal at best. 

So to hear Goodwin say efficiency i50 is poor and we lack fwd/mid connection/cohesion drives me mad.  He is the architect of the above decisions. 

And going by his press conf yesterday he doesn't know how to fix the problems.

i got that feeling too. almost resignation. our effort is there but what we lack is almost impossible to change. skill.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

3 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

suited our list in 2018. I would then ask what is the style to suit our list? its certainly not slow and steady as we don't have the foot skills.

 

 

It’s being able to do both and change tempo when needed. The point is the manic game style causes panic amongst our players and accentuates their poor skills. The fact that they have no one genuinely leading at the ball is also problematic. There is too much to fix right now. This is one of many problems 

[picket fence 15,059]

2 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Pretty fair summary Poita.  I can't see a place for Tomo if Bennell ever gets back.  Surely he and or / Fritchskreig goes to Tomo's wing.

Tomo trialled at CHB or maybe even CHF?

Personally i would trial him at CHB.  Push May to CHF and bring O-Mac in for Smith.  Bennell to HF or wing.  Alternating with Fritsch maybe.

I like it a lot

Inns Weeds, Brown, Bennell ( Consider Jones, Jetta

Outs Melksham, Tomlinson, Hunt, Vanders Viney

I'll work a side outa that latter but agree a few things MUST CHANGE eg 

HARLEY BENNELL Must play forward commision

T Mac to CHB

Weeds key deep Forward

Brown, insurance for above

Smith CHF

Harmes in midfield

Fritta HFF

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by picket fence

[Scipio 5,868]

43 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

Was there a reserves game on the weekend? 

Yes, we played a scratch match against Richmond at Punt Rd.