TEAMS: Rd 05 vs Richmond

[Ethan Tremblay 28,294]

We have too many romantics who were fans of Smith Snr and just like to see his young fella playing in the red and blue. No doubt Joel is an athletic guy but he’s not an AFL Footballer. Bring in OMac. 
 

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&pid1=4160&fid1=C&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&pid2=4024&fid2=C&type=A

[Mel Bourne 3,604]

9 hours ago, hardtack said:

A serious question... what exactly are Yze’s coaching credentials?

There’s an entire thread dedicated to this on DL. As per usual, full of facts and things resembling them. 

[jumbo returns 6,484]

3 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Picket does say it every week and what happens? We get flogged, unnecessarily. These premonitions ring true, week in, week out.

We've really suffered some heavy losses in 2020...

[Lucifers Hero 36,983]

1 hour ago, Demons11 said:

The hysteria around Harley is ridiculous.  The bloke has played 3 games in 3 years and has so many calf issues that he would have lost count. Let’s give him sometime to get his body right and then bring him back.  Goody gave him a taste against the Blues at 50% game time and from my point of view he looked very hesitant, which is understandable.   Harley has so much talent but let him get some runs on the board before they unleash him again 

It would help if the club had a consistent narrative around Harley:

• When selected to play rnd 2 Goodwin was effusive with praise and believed he was ready to play.
• When not selected to play rnd 4 Goodwin said its about his form and building his game but Mahoney said he had to get his body right.
• When not selected to play rnd 5 Goodwin says he needs to work on his defensive game and only got the rnd 2 game because Hannan, AvB and Pickett weren't available. ie gifted

No wonder people are sceptical. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Engorged Onion 9,239]

18 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

C'mon, BBP.  Smith is not AFL standard and is being gifted games because the coach likes his "athleticism and pace", too.  He has had 11 games, and I'm yet to see the required skill and brain to have a reasonable career at this level.

I don't want our team selections to be like a revolving door, but we can't just keep picking players who consistently play below a particular standard.

It's an interesting one

I am still holding out hope for Goodwin (yeah, can me for it)

So @The Chazz (I ask you as, I think you've got a good feel for this) , what is it that Goodwin and the staff want as a whole for the team, what are they trying to execute as the game plan?

They're willing to support Smith's athleticism and pace (but perhaps dismiss his limited execution skills, whilst he is learning)...yet with Bennell (and I know its about graded exposure to game time to protect the calf) there is a player with a range of great skills and can execute really consistently, but he is required to work on things?

Signed... 

One confused, trying to make sense, Demonlander.

[DemonOX 8,529]

Watch Richmond play keepings off like the cats did against us and achieve the same result, another loss. 

Then In Goodwins pressor He will repeat the same diarrhoea he did last week. 
 

It’s ground hog week and season as per usual. U can just see it happening. 

[Mel Bourne 3,604]

4 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

We have too many romantics who were fans of Smith Snr and just like to see his young fella playing in the red and blue. No doubt Joel is an athletic guy but he’s not an AFL Footballer. Bring in OMac. 
 

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&pid1=4160&fid1=C&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&pid2=4024&fid2=C&type=A

Help me understand the negativity towards Joel Smith, that I see so much of around here.

Two articles I read (The Age, AFL) both cited Joel Smith’s influence in the backline (particularly running with Dangerfield) as a reason the Cats were kept to a low score. He’s played 11 games since 2016, and it looks like 2020 might be his first opportunity to get some consistent footy into him, but so many seem to be of the opinion that he’s had his chance and failed. 

Was it his attempting to take a speccy in defense against Carlton that put everybody off? 

 

[Ethan Tremblay 28,294]

10 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

Help me understand the negativity towards Joel Smith, that I see so much of around here.

Two articles I read (The Age, AFL) both cited Joel Smith’s influence in the backline (particularly running with Dangerfield) as a reason the Cats were kept to a low score. He’s played 11 games since 2016, and it looks like 2020 might be his first opportunity to get some consistent footy into him, but so many seem to be of the opinion that he’s had his chance and failed. 

Was it his attempting to take a speccy in defense against Carlton that put everybody off? 

 

How much influence can you have when you get six touches and lay one tackle? Must have been one hell of a corralling game for Smith. 

[BScotti 112]

It appears more of the same.  we dont really have a focal point up front.  Surely a TMac, Weideman at FF, CHF staightens us up and gives a focal point forward.  the mid /small forward line just is not working.  also O.Mac in for Smith frees up Lever to play more intersept.  for what its worth.....i think its a pretty good set up.:

B	Jetta	May	Lever
HB	Salem	O.MacDonald	Harmes
C	Langdon	Brayshaw	Tomlinson
HF	Hannan	T.MacDonald	Petracca
F	Fritch	Weideman	Pickett
Fol	Gawn	Oliver	Viney
Int	Bennell	Hibberd	Melksham
	Hunt

[BigMacjnr 278]

Looking at the teams playing well at the moment: Power, Lions, Saints. Their forward-lines has a couple things in common, they make the most of their inside 50s, trying for quality not quantity, kicking it to advantage. Second, they have at least two tall targets to help progress the ball downfield. 

With Oscar, Brown and Jackson added to the extended bench it appears the selection committee are finally going to rectify our forward structure. If they don't feel like Brown and Jackson warrant selection I wouldn't be against playing Oscar as a forward. At least he reads the ball well, has good hands and can bring the ball to ground. But hoping one of these three can play the lead up role we desperately need. 

Viney had the most inside 50s against Geelong, and while he is a good extractor, he often goes for the easy bomb forward instead of kicking to advantage. Hopefully with two tall targets up forward there will always be someone leading up for an easy short option when we have the clearance. 

Also hoping the players are moving in the zone defense, so that there are no opposition in space within 60m of the ball. It is all good to have an extra behind the ball in general play, but if the ball is in our half, we are better off causing a turnover up the field than allowing the ball the waltz across the ground and have to rebound from our defensive goal square. We did this better in the second qtr last game as Goody mentioned but need to put this into practice for the full match. 

[Mel Bourne 3,604]

8 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

How much influence can you have when you get six touches and lay one tackle? Must have been one hell of a corralling game for Smith. 

I was as surprised as anybody to see his name appear twice in the press. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,381]

A serious question for everyone who claims Lever should play as an "intercept defender". Doesn't that leave the opposition with a free forward? In other words, doesn't every defender have to be accountable for a forward?  

[Engorged Onion 9,239]

1 minute ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

A serious question for everyone who claims Lever should play as an "intercept defender". Doesn't that leave the opposition with a free forward? In other words, doesn't every defender have to be accountable for a forward?  

Not when it is a zone (which every single team plays)

[binman 37,793]

15 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

A serious question for everyone who claims Lever should play as an "intercept defender". Doesn't that leave the opposition with a free forward? In other words, doesn't every defender have to be accountable for a forward?  

Zones and system. Both of which require complete trust and synergy to work. Which takes time to develop. Which is why clubs are generally loathe to change their back six if they can avoid. I think they are committed to their current set up and asumming this is the case shouldn't  change it

An issue with one player playing the key intercept role these days is that opposition teams can target them to negate their influence. They can do this in a number of ways, for example by playing a defensive forward on them or spreading the forward line and isolating them against a big (as teams are doing with lever).

This means teams now need mutiple intercept options. And perhaps this is why they like Smith in the side. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by binman

[Mel Bourne 3,604]

14 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

How much influence can you have when you get six touches and lay one tackle? Must have been one hell of a corralling game for Smith. 

So anyway.....

He’s officially a dud? 

Genuinely curious here, because I really didn’t  pay attention to many of his previous games. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,381]

10 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Not when it is a zone (which every single team plays)

I thought that would be the answer. But the obvious follow up question is if we are playing a zone, doesn't that mean every player becomes an intercept player? If the answer to my follow-up question is that we play a mix of zone and man-on-man, frankly, that doesn't make sense.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,106]

1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

C'mon, BBP.  Smith is not AFL standard and is being gifted games because the coach likes his "athleticism and pace", too.  He has had 11 games, and I'm yet to see the required skill and brain to have a reasonable career at this level.

I don't want our team selections to be like a revolving door, but we can't just keep picking players who consistently play below a particular standard.

Each to their own.

I thought Smith was good last week.

[Bitter but optimistic 21,169]

Just read the squad!!

FMD!!!!

I am totally confused 

[BigFez 1,388]

I didn't mind Smith's game last week.  He effected some spoils from out of position that most people just wouldn't have been able to do.  He spent time on Hawkins, Ablett and Dangerfield and none of them got hold of him.  We don't need all of the back 6 to run and create, that's what Salem, Hibberd, May and even Lever are for.  He can blanket talls and smalls with his pace and leap, and as long as he can limit his mistakes I think there's a spot for him.

[The Chazz 4,077]

13 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

So anyway.....

He’s officially a dud? 

Genuinely curious here, because I really didn’t  pay attention to many of his previous games. 

I don't think he's a dud per se, he's on the list of an AFL club, so it's a bloody lot higher than I have ever played.

My problem with him is that I think his shortcomings far outweigh his strengths.

I look at someone like Rivers.  You can just tell that Riv has "it", that's one of his strengths.  He's a footballer, first and foremost, and that's the perfect starting point.  He already understands the game, and will only continue to improve as he gets bigger/stronger/fitter.  What level will he get too?  Who knows.

I don't feel that Smith understands the game, and because of this, the role he is given is at a reduced capacity.  You only need to see how he panicked in the 3rd quarter last Sunday to know that his football awareness is just not there.  While the more he plays, the more he will learn, but he's so far off where Rivers' knowledge of the game is, that he (Smith) needs to learn a lot, just to get him to what I'd consider a minimum standard.

The problem with AFL sides these days is that their defence is so structured and smart.  Smith is fine from a structure point of view, but he would have no idea how to adjust if the structure breaks down, or if he needs to take the game on, he'd be lost.

I'll be interested to see if he plays this week, and if he does, what match-up they give him.  If I was Hardwick, I'd be licking my lips if Smith goes back again.

The above is only my opinion, so not really worth much in the scheme of things, but that's how I see it.

[Engorged Onion 9,239]

20 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I thought that would be the answer. But the obvious follow up question is if we are playing a zone, doesn't that mean every player becomes an intercept player? If the answer to my follow-up question is that we play a mix of zone and man-on-man, frankly, that doesn't make sense.

@La Dee-vina Comedia, perhaps you could attend the next Zoom meeting, or presser and ask these questions

[The Chazz 4,077]

30 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

So anyway.....

He’s officially a dud? 

Genuinely curious here, because I really didn’t  pay attention to many of his previous games. 

My Rivers vs Smith comparison probably isn't as good as this one, Tom Stewart (Geelong) vs Smith.  Stewart played a lot of footy at a lower level.  He understands the game, can play on smalls, talls.  He has a footy brain, so as soon as he got in to the elite environment, developed better habits, built a tank, he was able to grow his game significantly in a very short amount of time.  Even now, I think Stewart is vulnerable (see my views in any lead up to a Geelong game), but he's very well supported but the rest of the backline, and when he gets on top of his opponent, then he uses his strengths to have an impact.

I feel Smith is being asked to play a similar role.  Even when our backline unit play more footy together, if Smith gets on top of his opponent, I can't see what his strengths are that will make him have that same sort of impact as what Stewart does.

[hardtack 10,126]

8 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Hawthorn assistant.

Ok, thanks.  However, I'm not sure that automatically translates to greatness as a head coach.  After all, Goodwin was an assistant at Essendon and then assistant to one of the greats in Paul Roos for two years, yet apart from one good season in 2018, it hasn't really counted for much; at least, not yet.

[hardtack 10,126]

1 hour ago, Mel Bourne said:

There’s an entire thread dedicated to this on DL. As per usual, full of facts and things resembling them. 

Must check it out... it's possible I may have at some point read the first page and turned off.

[Rednblueriseing 646]

15 minutes ago, BigFez said:

I didn't mind Smith's game last week.  He effected some spoils from out of position that most people just wouldn't have been able to do.  He spent time on Hawkins, Ablett and Dangerfield and none of them got hold of him.  We don't need all of the back 6 to run and create, that's what Salem, Hibberd, May and even Lever are for.  He can blanket talls and smalls with his pace and leap, and as long as he can limit his mistakes I think there's a spot for him.

A defender should know when to force his opponent out of bounds (Ablett) that goal should never have happened