Ross Lyon analysis of lack of scoring

[titan_uranus 22,289]

7 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

Part of that is the rule-change that killed Goodwin's first gameplan.  In 2018 we were playing with four forwards and two extras at the back end of the square at centre bounces.  That gave us extra players charging through the centre at the bounce, all heading forwards.  It worked brilliantly, as we saw from our insane number of inside 50's that year.  Even then though, it was clear that our efficiency in the forward 50 was a problem.  While we were having massive I50 counts, we weren't blowing a lot of teams away on the scoreboard.  We won on weight of numbers rather than good structure and quality forwards.  When they changed the rules and we couldn't have those extra players behind the ball it hurt our ability to get the ball moving forward quickly, our I50 numbers dropped and the poor efficiency became more of an issue. 

That being said, there has also been a massive drop in efficiency which is hard to explain solely through that one change. 

In 2018 we scored from 46.2% of I50 entries.

In 2019 we scored from 38.1% of I50 entries.

This year we have scored from 33.6% of I50 entries. 

Has the quality of forward entries dropped by that much in two years?  Was the loss of Hogan THAT significant?  I'm more inclined to point the finger at a gameplan that encourages a crowded forward 50 and has no way to isolate a forward target and get them an uncontested mark.  As teams figured out just how little danger there is in our attack, they have happily set up to spoil the long bomb and run it out of defence.  West Coast in 2018 showed the world how easy it is to get around us by having their wingers break into space early on the assumption that the ball was going to come out of our forward line with relative ease (again, toothless attack gives them that freedom) and now teams are happy to set up for the rebound 50 with confidence knowing that we simply don't have the capacity to hurt them when they don't commit fully to defending. 

If we assume 6-6-6 has played a role, and I think it has, I think there are two reasons why.

One is what you mention - a lack of run from behind the centre square, meaning that as we get our hands on the ball at the centre stoppage, we likely don't have a runner to feed it to so we go with a quick kick.

The other is the trade-off - we have two more players in our forward 50, but they're not generating marks from those quick kicks. That's in part because they're undersized, in part because they're out of form (TMac), and in part because we don't have a good forward set up. We don't leave forwards deep to lead up to the ball carrier (last year, when I was at games, we would have many of our six forwards sit up near the 50 to push up into the square and, presumably, to start defending if we lost the centre clearance).

[rjay 23,888]

9 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

If we assume 6-6-6 has played a role, and I think it has, I think there are two reasons why.

One is what you mention - a lack of run from behind the centre square, meaning that as we get our hands on the ball at the centre stoppage, we likely don't have a runner to feed it to so we go with a quick kick.

The other is the trade-off - we have two more players in our forward 50, but they're not generating marks from those quick kicks. That's in part because they're undersized, in part because they're out of form (TMac), and in part because we don't have a good forward set up. We don't leave forwards deep to lead up to the ball carrier (last year, when I was at games, we would have many of our six forwards sit up near the 50 to push up into the square and, presumably, to start defending if we lost the centre clearance).

I posted something on this last year...it was frustrating looking at our forward set up.

We had a great ruck, midfield combination but set up as though we would lose every contest.

The only time we took the game on was the last centre bounce against GC when we had to score to win.

Suddenly the forwards spread & gave themselves some space.

The ball came quickly from the middle, the defence couldn't set up properly, we scored and won.

...lesson learned? no, we went back to the same old boring set up for the rest of the season and have started this one the same way.

[whatwhat say what 18,897]

3 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

In 2018 we scored from 46.2% of I50 entries.

In 2019 we scored from 38.1% of I50 entries.

This year we have scored from 33.6% of I50 entries. 

frightening numbers

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,161]

Whilst I agree 6-6-6 has hurt us and an in form tall is also part of the solution I would be keen to see our I50 tackles and also goals from I50 stoppages. The ball just seems out of there a lot easier and I feel in 2018 we got a lot of goals from a boundary throw in clearance or forward stoppage. I feel this is why we should be playing two talls to try and get more balls to ground and use our clearance strength to score. 

[Demon17 4,541]

This may belong in the "IS Goodwin the Right Guy"  thread but I don't think so.

Last Night's Footy Classified had Ross Lyon analyse what all supporters are screaming about and that is forward entries using the Richmond game vision.

It wasn't overly insightful or new,  but the way Lyon glaringly and simply explained the issues, and sounded optimistic and thought its all fixable, sounded like a pitch for me ( but not necessarily Ross's approach - he was simply providing analysis as is his media role) and left me wondering what the discussion is inside the FD for the past 2 years  even approached this issue in such a way.

Results suggest not

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Demonland
Video of segment included

[Lord Nev 13,511]

I'm a Goodwin critic currently, but to be fair to him I'm sure he's showed exactly the same vision to the players every week. It's the implementation that's failing and that's where we as supporters don't know for sure where the problem is. It could be the players not listening, it could be the way the message is being put across from the coaches, it could be the onfield leadership etc etc.

One thing that IMO is on the coaches is that there seems to be not much consequence for the main culprits of the problem. We seem to drop and pick the same fringe group of players, putting the onus of change on them when it's some of our 'stars' that need the readjusting.

[Demon17 4,541]

19 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm a Goodwin critic currently, but to be fair to him I'm sure he's showed exactly the same vision to the players every week. It's the implementation that's failing and that's where we as supporters don't know for sure where the problem is. It could be the players not listening, it could be the way the message is being put across from the coaches, it could be the onfield leadership etc etc.

One thing that IMO is on the coaches is that there seems to be not much consequence for the main culprits of the problem. We seem to drop and pick the same fringe group of players, putting the onus of change on them when it's some of our 'stars' that need the readjusting.

Your right lord nev e cept that lyons point ws you can't play manic football often and expect composure and good decision making in the forward entry approach. I think he felt the 2 issues may be incompatible. Goodwin showing the vision won't solve a problem necessarily if the manic approach inhibits others aspects.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

20 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

Your right lord nev e cept that lyons point ws you can't play manic football often and expect composure and good decision making in the forward entry approach. I think he felt the 2 issues may be incompatible. Goodwin showing the vision won't solve a problem necessarily if the manic approach inhibits others aspects.

Very true mate. My gut feel is Goodwin keeps over-correcting with his message. We've not seen a good balance of game styles yet, we've either seen manic or totally slow.

[Dr.D 1,771]

you can't teach footy smarts at the end of the day 

[Earl Hood 5,788]

I agree with Ross and that this issue is fixable and the root cause of our problems is not that we have a list of footballers who cant kick or have no vision, it is the play on at all costs game style.  But I am not sure Goody gets it even after 18 months of crap play. 

[DemonOX 8,530]

1 hour ago, Demon17 said:

This may belong in the "IS Goodwin the Right Guy"  thread but I don't think so.

Last Night's Footy Classified had Ross Lyon analyse what all supporters are screaming about and that is forward entries using the Richmond game vision.

It wasn't overly insightful or new,  but the way Lyon glaringly and simply explained the issues, and sounded optimistic and thought its all fixable, sounded like a pitch for me ( but not necessarily Ross's approach - he was simply providing analysis as is his media role) and left me wondering what the discussion is inside the FD for the past 2 years  even approached this issue in such a way.

Results suggest not

 

Thanks for posting it D17.

Ross seems to know what he is talking about.

I'm sure he will make a good coach, 3rd time lucky. (hopefully at the Dees)

[titan_uranus 22,289]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm a Goodwin critic currently, but to be fair to him I'm sure he's showed exactly the same vision to the players every week. It's the implementation that's failing and that's where we as supporters don't know for sure where the problem is. It could be the players not listening, it could be the way the message is being put across from the coaches, it could be the onfield leadership etc etc.

One thing that IMO is on the coaches is that there seems to be not much consequence for the main culprits of the problem. We seem to drop and pick the same fringe group of players, putting the onus of change on them when it's some of our 'stars' that need the readjusting.

That will be part of it, I'm sure. Viney has been doing this for years but repeatedly shows he's not capable of composing himself or scanning the field.

But one of the other things Lyon mentioned in that segment is our tactical decision to send an extra up to the stoppage. Someone on here mentioned this in another thread. That leaves a spare defender behind the play, which does not help us (indeed, contributes to our problem of failing to convert from inside 50s).

That's on Goodwin. He's made a tactical call to do that (much like he was obsessed in 2018 with sending a loose defender into the backline if our opponent got on a run of goals) and it's not working.

[Demonland 64,761]

12 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

I agree with Ross and that this issue is fixable and the root cause of our problems is not that we have a list of footballers who cant kick or have no vision, it is the play on at all costs game style.  But I am not sure Goody gets it even after 18 months of crap play. 

I believe it can be corrected too but my personal opinion is that the FD department is too stubborn and believes that it will all eventually click. If it does click I'm happy to eat humble pie but if it doesn't click and nothing is done about it then I fear we will be back to square.

[DemonOX 8,530]

10 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I believe it can be corrected too but my personal opinion is that the FD department is too stubborn and believes that it will all eventually click. If it does click I'm happy to eat humble pie but if it doesn't click and nothing is done about it then I fear we will be back to square.

I keep hearing that it should be an easy fix but its been going on for 18 months now and as hard as Goody has tried to fix it (which I struggle to see), it aint working.

They had Craig Jennings on SEN this morning and he said something like he was amazed at the lack of positional changes from the coaches box when we played Richmond.

The main thing for me is that its not just us frustrated Dees supporters talking about what is not happening at our club but the media, former coaches and other footy related people.

If we don't see improvement this week pressure will continue to mount especially from the media.

Edited July 9, 2020 by DemonOX

[tiers 2,761]

It is a truism of footy that teams can often emerge from extended periods of poor performance and go on to great success. Think of dees in 1987, leos in 2001, catties in 2007, doggies in 2016, toiges in 2017.

This however relies on starting with a good squad and the right impetus for the "click". Typically teams emerge after tinkering with their personnel and game plan.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence that the coaches are doing either in any controlled and planned manner. Too much seems to be reactive (team changes) or just not happening (game plan).

I also believe that we have a strong list and that the weaknesses identified can be overcome with the right game plan. There are times in games when we show that we are capable of much better but they are too few.  The fact that we are challenging in games means that we can be competitive but for not long enough. 16 min quarters and a shortened season gives reduced scope for us to emerge in 2020. Sad.

[Demon Dude 425]

good to see Lyon hit on two points that have always frustrated me about the way we play under Goodwin.

1), how we push a forward up to the contest and leave the oppo with a spare in defense to pick off the quick kick forward. from there we usually see the ball rebound from our forward half quickly through the middle of the ground putting our defenders under immense pressure. all teams set up for this against us and usually make us pay, yet we still do it every week.

and 2), how our players don't get back off the mark quick enough and open up the ground. that is a pretty basic thing to teach in footy, i can't understand why it is never been fixed. instead i find myself yelling at the tv most weeks about this when watching us play. 

[frankie_d 1,407]

https://www.9now.com.au/footy-classified/2020/clip-ckce1kpwd00380hmq9dfeetd8

(no paywall, need to register)

- not technical 

- they are good kicks

- not getting the tempo right

- easy to fix

we play on ~50% of the time, the 4 top teams are about 20%. 

a good listen, and for mine, a bloody good job interview (I know there are ... ahem... mixed views  ... of Lyon here on DL)

[Demon17 4,541]

1 minute ago, frankie_d said:

https://www.9now.com.au/footy-classified/2020/clip-ckce1kpwd00380hmq9dfeetd8

(no paywall, need to register)

- not technical 

- they are good kicks

- not getting the tempo right

- easy to fix

we play on ~50% of the time, the 4 top teams are about 20%. 

a good listen, and for mine, a bloody good job interview (I know there are ... ahem... mixed views  ... of Lyon here on DL)

I mentioned this on another thread earlier.  Agree 100% FD. Lyon said its a 30 second fix and my thought was why has the stats on I50's been going on for 2 years.?

[Lord Travis 10,162]

This has been covered in both the Goodwin thread and the Craig Jennings thread.

We basically need to slow down and have some composure when looking for targets. Our overly contested and play on at all costs gamestyle only harms us, and goes against the way successful teams are currently playing. We are the easiest team to coach against. 

1. Sit players off the contest, watch our mids all get sucked in to win the ball. Once the contest is done, either pressure them into rushed long bombs or the ball spills out and you're free to gain possession under little pressure.

2. Play a short kicking game creating uncontested marking chains. Our mids are too lazy defensively and our zone doesn't work.

Do those two things and you'll beat Melbourne 100% of the time. It's sad we're that predictable and ineffective. Since 2018 we are the worst team in the league with a record of 6-21. On top of that, nearly all those 6 wins have been by less than 2 goals, we haven't had a convincing 4 goal + win since 2018. We're truly in rubbish form and need a shake up fast. 

[frankie_d 1,407]

Apologies to the LT and D17-I hadn't seen it

Admins - please merge

[Hellofatime 83]

I am sorry,

I have been away for awhile.

How many flags that we haven't had, and how many flags has that guy delivered, since our stupid club decided it was time to sack the guy that gave us 6 in 10 years?

Einstein

[Demon Disciple 10,924]

11 minutes ago, Hellofatime said:

I am sorry,

I have been away for awhile.

How many flags that we haven't had, and how many flags has that guy delivered, since our stupid club decided it was time to sack the guy that gave us 6 in 10 years?

Einstein

So one of Clarkson, Barassi, Matthews, Parkin or Sheedy.

[Little Goffy 12,555]

Theory - Goodwin's ambition is to create a team so used to playing on and operating under massive amounts of self-inflicted pressure that they eventually start operating naturally at that level and become a completely unstoppable force - a level of tempo up to compare with going VFL to AFL, and then proceed to win a string of premierships to rival the Great One himself.

I mean, that run in mid 2018 - if that is a taste of what the 'Goodwin plan working' looks like, I'm okay with that...

If...