CHANGES: Rd 05 vs Richmond

[Diamond_Jim 11,679]

6 minutes ago, MF-C said:

I'd actually like to see Bennell, Omac and Weed in

Out goes Hunt, AVB and Smith

Agree but perhaps Melksham out instead of Hunt but either is good.

Won't happen though and would not be surprised with only one change or no changes.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Goodwin was spot on with a few things in that presser.

Our defensive work has been terrific.  No doubt about it.

We are working well around the contest and generally with our pressure, which we know is something we pride ourselves on.

We do need some continuity in our side.

And, yes, our use forward of the ball needs some work.

I think the main issue for most of us is this - Goody can see what isn't working, but does he have the capacity to make the right changes to fix it?  I think at the very least they are trialling a smaller, speedier forward line, but the problem is that we are still kicking it inside 50 like we always do - long bombs to a contest and we rarely lower our eyes and look for the right option.  This idea of a contest, bringing the ball to ground and locking it in there is sound in principle, but it clearly isn't working for us.  It might be time to change that aspect up a little.

Either way, I'm interested to see the changes this week and how we go against one of the better defensive units in the competition. 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

8 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

But he is number 1 for average hitouts to advantage per game across his career. Hitouts to advantage are an average stat. I don't care if his % is 600th in the AFL if he has a better average than anyone else.

He was way down in round 1 which given a 3 game season has impacted his 2020 average heavily. But given the matches are 20% shorter having 10 and 9 in the next 2 games is back around his elite career average.

Max career average: 11.7

Goldstein: 9.5

Grundy 9.3

Witt's 8.5

NicNat: 7

Martin 6.6

Ryder 5.3

But sure Max doesn't get enough hitouts to advantage

Thanks for backing up my point.

Over his career it's been a strength, this year it's a massive struggle.

Cheers.

PS - The stat I used was percentage of hitouts that are to advantage, it's a good one hey? Gawn is ranked 23rd this year. It's an area he and the midfield group need to work hard on IMO.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Lord Nev

[Watts the matter 1,235]

13 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

But he is number 1 for average hitouts to advantage per game across his career. Hitouts to advantage are an average stat. I don't care if his % is 600th in the AFL if he has a better average than anyone else.

He was way down in round 1 which given a 3 game season has impacted his 2020 average heavily. But given the matches are 20% shorter having 10 and 9 in the next 2 games is back around his elite career average.

Max career average: 11.7

Goldstein: 9.5

Grundy 9.3

Witt's 8.5

NicNat: 7

Martin 6.6

Ryder 5.3

But sure Max doesn't get enough hitouts to advantage

The concerning part is Gawn got 10 to Pittonett's 15. I can't seem to find the specific of Fort's from the game but I assume they were close to breaking even. He is playing against 2nd string Ruckman and not giving us the advantage we have come to expect.

He also seems to give some absolute shockers most games straight to the opposition with no coverage from our midfield.

He is as much of the problem as Oliver and everyone else in our midfield group at the moment.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

Can we ease up on the Gawn bashing?

I agree he hasn't been dominating in the ruck so far this year but before we all jump on him, two of our three opponents have been West Coast and Geelong, two of the best midfields in the comp. Maybe that's part of the reason his hit out to advantage stat is lower?

Gawn's midfield/repeat effort work vs Geelong was exceptional. He leads by example in training and on the field. He's not perfect (he's a repeat offender when it comes to poor kicks inside 50) but he's not even close to one of our biggest problems right now.

Edit: and of course, our best football this year was the first half vs Carlton when Gawn was utterly dominant.

He's not in the side for kicks.

The big mans job is to mark the ball,  crash packs and feed running players.   Hit-outs are really hit or miss.  Its quality clearances that make big differences to a game.   Whether they are from our tap,  or from reading the opposing ruck.

We need max taking grabs up front, deep. Or in midfield to feed runners.  And also blocking for our teammates. If Maxy goes to win ball, he's not thinking of blocking, shepherding, bumping etc.

When someone not so skilled goes to take ball, and use ball.   Sometimes its to the detriment of more skilled teammates at hand.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

3 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Just to add to this, here's a painful stat...

For hitouts to advantage %, Gawn is ranked 23rd in the league.

 

 

3 hours ago, Forest Demon said:

Ouch. He's been ok this year, but certainly a level below his best.

His role really interests me at the moment. In 2018 in the absence of Lever, he was constantly dropping back deep and taking lots of intercept marks. These days, it seems to be like he is playing more traditionally between the 50 meter arcs. As outlined in a few posts up, given our dysfunctional forward line, I would like to see him get forward a bit more.

It's not hitouts dominance we need,  from him.  it's a strong contest & its to see our mids get clearance out of congestion with ball.

 

Starring in the middle getting first touch,  is jut purely fluffy up our own supporter feathers.  It looks good is all.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

2 hours ago, old dee said:

The GF has been won by teams with average ruckman.

Here it is.

This is our club problem.  We wish to look good,  and first touch to the ball at the bounce,  looks good.  Sometimes we think,  'we-win'  if we have the taller ruck because he's bigger.  small mercies hey.

The teams that win big games in finals,  mostly have aggressive rucks who nullify opposing rucks; & they crash packs,  and take important marks.

 

That's all that's required,  apart from the intimidation/hurt factor.

[BW511 2,236]

Grundy is such a weapon because he is always in the play and can actually be useful.

Aside from the tapwork and the odd mark, Gawn is not really someone you want with ball in hand in general play, nor is he going to hurt or at least, intimidate the opposition

[Rednblueriseing 646]

If fit I'd like no change this week the team needs some stability,.

[loges 6,002]

4 hours ago, rjay said:

Let's hope he worked on those areas last week because we need someone who knows how to find the ball and use it to advantage.

I'm not sure we have another player in the team with his skill set, in fact I'm pretty sure we don't.

Pretty sure there's others who need to work more on their game.

[robbiefrom13 877]

Remember when Jurrah was under the pump because he wasn't defensive enough?  like Diesel Williams wasn't fast enough...  Like Fritsch is letting us down by not being bigger for the position we put him in.

Is this what they had in mind when we took Harley Bennell on?  And was it explained to him?

Such  great story, to have him get fit enough to play - and now we want him to become a different player to the one we recruited...

[drdrake 3,035]

47 minutes ago, BW511 said:

Grundy is such a weapon because he is always in the play and can actually be useful.

Aside from the tapwork and the odd mark, Gawn is not really someone you want with ball in hand in general play, nor is he going to hurt or at least, intimidate the opposition

And that is why we have drafted Jackson, a Grundy clone with a better leap.

Would love for the club to back the kid and let him have a run around the MCG, let Max Ruck 60% and push deep forward 35%, Jackson 40% Ruck and deep forward.  At least then we have tall targets deep.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Can we ease up on the Gawn bashing?

I agree he hasn't been dominating in the ruck so far this year but before we all jump on him, two of our three opponents have been West Coast and Geelong, two of the best midfields in the comp. Maybe that's part of the reason his hit out to advantage stat is lower?

Gawn's midfield/repeat effort work vs Geelong was exceptional. He leads by example in training and on the field. He's not perfect (he's a repeat offender when it comes to poor kicks inside 50) but he's not even close to one of our biggest problems right now.

Edit: and of course, our best football this year was the first half vs Carlton when Gawn was utterly dominant.

Not sure if this is directed at me for bringing up the hitouts to advantage %, but I'm gonna guess so and answer if ok?

Pointing that stat out isn't intended as 'Gawn bashing', in fact it's not even all his fault. I brought it up to try and point out that our midfield connection is currently a bit out of sync. It's near impossible for us to know if Gawn is hitting to the right spots but the mids aren't there, or if Gawn is missing his targets or if opponents are reading him better than ever, but the simple fact is our centre work is way off where it has been at the moment. Hitouts to advantage is as much a midfield group stat as it is a ruck stat. Ignoring this current weakness because we all love Gawny isn't fair, especially to the players who get bashed week after week no matter what.

Seems a bit Goodwineqsue to explain it away by saying we were up against good midfields. It's the AFL, we're up against good midfields every week. It's one of the areas we need to lift as a team, and maybe just maybe a few more classic Gawn hitouts to advantage will allow us to get better looks going inside 50?

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Goodwin was spot on with a few things in that presser.

Our defensive work has been terrific.  No doubt about it.

We are working well around the contest and generally with our pressure, which we know is something we pride ourselves on.

We do need some continuity in our side.

And, yes, our use forward of the ball needs some work.

I think the main issue for most of us is this - Goody can see what isn't working, but does he have the capacity to make the right changes to fix it?  I think at the very least they are trialling a smaller, speedier forward line, but the problem is that we are still kicking it inside 50 like we always do - long bombs to a contest and we rarely lower our eyes and look for the right option.  This idea of a contest, bringing the ball to ground and locking it in there is sound in principle, but it clearly isn't working for us.  It might be time to change that aspect up a little.

Either way, I'm interested to see the changes this week and how we go against one of the better defensive units in the competition. 

I wonder if the smaller forward line is to try and force the mids to lower their eyes? If they see a few talls then they revert to the long bomb, while a smaller line up should give them no choice but to try and find a target? I know it's not the type of thing to be working on in season, but it's not like they've had a go at it during pre-season to really practice?? 

I agree with out contest and pressure, including the defense being very good, but eventually it must wear on the guys if their not getting rewarded when moving forward, which might explain the Carlton drop off and then the slow movement late in the game against the Cats?

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

37 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

Remember when Jurrah was under the pump because he wasn't defensive enough?  like Diesel Williams wasn't fast enough...  Like Fritsch is letting us down by not being bigger for the position we put him in.

Is this what they had in mind when we took Harley Bennell on?  And was it explained to him?

Such  great story, to have him get fit enough to play - and now we want him to become a different player to the one we recruited...

Or they want all those things from him and more, if he's going to be playing as a high half forward one of their important roles is continuous pressure, we saw we got very little of that from AVB and Hannan on the weekend (I'll put it down to rust from both of them, becuase they are normally good in this area, particularly AVB), and with Geelongs game plan it killed us. If we're going to maximise Bennell's talents then he needs to do this as well, or to compensate then you need someone who is manic at it, like ANB. So IMO at the moment you either have AVB and Hannan or Bennell and ANB - Hunt & Kossie do this regardless. It'd be much better for the team if we could have Bennell in the team without providing that defensive cover, and that's what I assume their waiting for, his running to get to a level where it goes both ways. 

[Deespicable 2,539]

Just watched the Cats game again and overall we played so well against a team of experienced old stagers.

Almost everyone had their moments, so every omission is a big call, but clearly Bennell has to come in and to me we have to try a slightly different forward set-up so one of Weid, Jackson or Brown has to play as well.

Seeing it again, Fritter had about five plays where he was in the box seat and each time Kolodashnij or Blicavs managed to save the day.  Fritter was our standout player all pre-season so it would be a big call to drop him, but ultimately he may not have enough body strength as the key forward and will probably struggle against Grimes and Vlastuin who will be nudging him under almost every play. Weid or Brown may be better options in this area.

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

45 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

Remember when Jurrah was under the pump because he wasn't defensive enough?  like Diesel Williams wasn't fast enough...  Like Fritsch is letting us down by not being bigger for the position we put him in.

Is this what they had in mind when we took Harley Bennell on?  And was it explained to him?

Such  great story, to have him get fit enough to play - and now we want him to become a different player to the one we recruited...

if Bennell's defensive efforts are still like the Carlton game, then Goodwin has a point. it wasn't good on a few occasions. no use letting them waltz past without pressure.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Bay Riffin

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

On 6/29/2020 at 3:13 PM, DeeSpencer said:

It was a desperation move to find a serviceable wing player but that's all he is.

Lockhart struggles for fitness and hunts the ball a bit too much to be a smart winger. Now we're back on the MCG I'd stick with Tomlinson just to cover the KM's but yeah his long contract is going to look like dead weight. 

wow. 3 servceable games in and some are marking Thomlinsons cards already. stunning judgement given he's just started with a new team.

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

6 hours ago, Forest Demon said:

Jobe Watson made a good point about using Gawn as more of an offensive weapon. Obviously being a marking target is one thing, but it was more about him rucking inside 50, as opposed to TMac, and using his ruck work to try and get on the scoreboard. As Jobe kept banging on about, Gawn rucking to Petracca and Kossie inside 50 could be a real weapon.

yes and also pressing forward more. this week we should try and expose Richmonds lack of experienced talls down back.

[picket fence 15,060]

1 hour ago, Rednblueriseing said:

If fit I'd like no change this week the team needs some stability,.

I wouldn't .. sends out the wrong message for underperformance.

If Goodwin thinks our small forward line will get the job done vs Richmond we will see rebound city. Houli will run amok! I would actually play Harmes on Houli in a negating roll. Clarry goes head to head with Martin, same with Viney and Cotchin.

Get fair dinkum and play Brown, Weeds and Bennell for Hannan, Vanderberg and Melksham!

Play Kossie and Bennell smalls at fall of ball, Brown as lead up forward, Fritsch on HFF, and tell Weeds to take some angry pills before the game. Smith to CHF, T Mac to CHB Hunt on the ball!

FOOTY FENCE STYLE!!

Won't of course happen but if you dont change anything NOTHING changes!

Edited July 2, 2020 by picket fence

[spirit of norm smith 12,843]

Weideman in?? Any chance ???? Surely in the 25 squad. 

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

2 hours ago, BW511 said:

Grundy is such a weapon because he is always in the play and can actually be useful.

Aside from the tapwork and the odd mark, Gawn is not really someone you want with ball in hand in general play, nor is he going to hurt or at least, intimidate the opposition

Also he struggles to burst thru/into packs, to get to drop of ball.

We lack pack busters,  because we always seem to like the look of more athlete types.  And often recruit this way

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by MyFavouriteMartian

[titan_uranus 22,220]

2 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

Here it is.

This is our club problem.  We wish to look good,  and first touch to the ball at the bounce,  looks good.  Sometimes we think,  'we-win'  if we have the taller ruck because he's bigger.  small mercies hey.

The teams that win big games in finals,  mostly have aggressive rucks who nullify opposing rucks; & they crash packs,  and take important marks.

 

That's all that's required,  apart from the intimidation/hurt factor.

I think this is a case of correlation rather than causation.

I don't think teams win finals because they have an "average" ruckman, or because their ruckman isn't as talented as Gawn or Grundy. I think you're just looking at some recent successful sides and noted that their ruckmen aren't at Gawn or Grundy's level and concluded that there's some sort of relationship. I don't think there is.

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Not sure if this is directed at me for bringing up the hitouts to advantage %, but I'm gonna guess so and answer if ok?

Pointing that stat out isn't intended as 'Gawn bashing', in fact it's not even all his fault. I brought it up to try and point out that our midfield connection is currently a bit out of sync. It's near impossible for us to know if Gawn is hitting to the right spots but the mids aren't there, or if Gawn is missing his targets or if opponents are reading him better than ever, but the simple fact is our centre work is way off where it has been at the moment. Hitouts to advantage is as much a midfield group stat as it is a ruck stat. Ignoring this current weakness because we all love Gawny isn't fair, especially to the players who get bashed week after week no matter what.

Seems a bit Goodwineqsue to explain it away by saying we were up against good midfields. It's the AFL, we're up against good midfields every week. It's one of the areas we need to lift as a team, and maybe just maybe a few more classic Gawn hitouts to advantage will allow us to get better looks going inside 50?

Wasn't directed at you, there were others who were jumping on Gawn and bemoaning his output.

Part of this makes my point - where you say hitouts to advantage is as much a midfield group stat as it is a ruck stat. I agree. That's why I asked the question of whether playing against WC and Geelong, two strong midfields, impacts that stat across a sample size of three games.

That doesn't mean Gawn is doing flawlessly in the ruck: indeed, the other side of the coin of him dominating the first half vs Carlton was that he let Pittonet level the playing field in the second half.

All I'm saying is that I don't think Gawn is playing as poorly as some other posters on here suggest, and I don't think his output at the moment is a significant reason for our current poor form.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

16 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Wasn't directed at you, there were others who were jumping on Gawn and bemoaning his output.

Part of this makes my point - where you say hitouts to advantage is as much a midfield group stat as it is a ruck stat. I agree. That's why I asked the question of whether playing against WC and Geelong, two strong midfields, impacts that stat across a sample size of three games.

That doesn't mean Gawn is doing flawlessly in the ruck: indeed, the other side of the coin of him dominating the first half vs Carlton was that he let Pittonet level the playing field in the second half.

All I'm saying is that I don't think Gawn is playing as poorly as some other posters on here suggest, and I don't think his output at the moment is a significant reason for our current poor form.

Yeah absolutely. My stat wasn't to try and imply he's playing poorly, I think he can lift but I don't think he's been poor at all. Just throwing around the idea that in 2018 when we had great stats in that area; we were able to get the ball forward more quickly and effectively use 'chaos ball' to become the highest scoring team in the comp. If we could recapture that and then marry it with our improving backline and bring in the element of some more deliberate use going inside 50 I think we could all of a sudden become a dangerous team again, even more dangerous than 2018.

For me, I see it as all connected right now.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

16 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

or because their ruckman isn't as talented as Gawn or Grundy

I see Gawn and Grundy as different types to one another.

I see Grundy as someone who can hold his feet in packs, and can jump into them as well ... where as  i see Gawn as a giraffe who is a bit too leggy to push off players, or work a way into a pack,  doesn't bustle well, etc.  So struggle with rucks who lean on hm.

 

I love Maxy as a Melbourne player,  and I like Grundy and wanted us to try to draft him in his year.  He was one who got my attention for sure from video footage.