POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Carlton

[Demon Dynasty 15,193]

38 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

You'll work that out when you have it in your hand Rusty.

[Scoop Junior 2,963]

3 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

In clutch moments Jayden Hunt always seems to step up.

Yesterday he was playing forward all day but runs past Brayshaw on the back flank when the game was in the balance received it and distributes it well. Then seconds later the ball is in our forward line and he is the one battling the contest.

He's previously kicked a winning goal from a set shot.

He's also created a contest, won the ball and kicked it to the player (I can't remember) who kicked the winning goal in another game.

Plus the girl after 3/4 time siren.

If anyone can remind me which games they all were I'll start a new thread

Yep Hunt had some important moments late both with some run and with pressure/tackles. Fritsch too laid a tackle and applied pressure at a critical time and also took a good mark (just missed the sitter set shot!).

But there were still some bizarre moments. Jetta had a free kick in the back pocket with a minute left. Either needs to be a chip to a free teammate or long down the boundary line to a pack. His kick did look like it went off the instep (so perhaps a skill error rather than a decisional one) but it went inboard to a contest and opened it right up, giving Carlton another chance. Shades of Jones versus North last year.

Then Lever marks deep in defence with less than a minute left. Surely everyone knows the kick is going to be long down the boundary (as there were no short options) and had to run to that spot as soon as he took the mark. I don't blame him for the kick as he only has 5 seconds after the mark to find an option. He kicks it to the right area but it's a 2 on 1 - Fritsch is the only Melbourne player in the area. Again very strange to leave it that open given the state of the game.

There were some good individual efforts to get us across the line but it's hard not to feel if a better side was in Carlton's position they would have created another chance to win and would've won. We need to be smarter in these situations.

[leave it to deever 15,152]

37 minutes ago, old dee said:

What does it that tell you?

Not really sure.

Could be a number of factors.

If I had to take a stab at it, I believe it is a serious lack of genuine expectation.

That most of the players dont seriously believe in themselves or if they do, I would argue that they dont believe in ths teams ability to win a premiership.

We had a clear look at what confidence can do 2 seasons ago.

That said there is obviously a lot going on outside of footy , so I guess I can understand if there is a lack of focus and belief this season.

This year is complicated, so its probably silly to make any real assumptions. The problem is the results of last year, pre Covid.

There are certainly quality players on this list who are lacking self confidence. And if that is not the reason then one cant rule out sheer apathy.

I dont really think the last conclusion is the reason.

Edited June 14, 2020 by leave it to deever

[old dee 22,808]

12 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Not really sure.

Could be a number of factors.

If I had to take a stab at it, I believe it is a serious lack of genuine expectation.

That most of the players dont seriously believe in themselves or if they do, I would argue that they dont believe in ths teams ability to win a premiership.

We had a clear look at what confidence can do 2 seasons ago.

That said there is obviously a lot going on outside of footy , so I guess I can understand if there is a lack of focus and belief this season.

This year is complicated, so its probably silly to make any real assumptions. The problem is the results of last year, pre Covid.

There are certainly quality players on this list who are lacking self confidence. And if that is not the reason then one cant rule out sheer apathy.

I dont really think the last conclusion is the reason.

IMO the problem is 90% FD. 

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

11 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Not really sure.

Could be a number of factors.

If I had to take a stab at it, I believe it is a serious lack of genuine expectation.

That most of the players dont seriously believe in themselves or if they do, I would argue that they dont believe in ths teams ability to win a premiership.

We had a clear look at what confidence can do 2 seasons ago.

That said there is obviously a lot going on outside of footy , so I guess I can understand if there is a lack of focus and belief this season.

This year is complicated, so its probably silly to make any real assumptions. The problem is the results of last year, pre Covid.

There are certainly quality players on this list who are lacking self confidence. And if that is not the reason then one cant rule out sheer apathy.

I dont really think the last conclusion is the reason.

I just worry that the Coach has no Plan B, at all. His Plan A is great when it rolls, but you have to expect that 17 other Coaches are going to work on structures to Counter it. 
Once this Happens Goodwin & Co leave themselves wide open. 
 

After Carlscum kicked their 2nd Goal, i knew what was going to happen, and it did. This club cannot defend once pressure is applied 

Even a Halftime Break didn’t change anything. 
Goodwin must get smarter or he won’t last. We should have lost that game. I will take the 4 points, but we dodged a bullet no doubt

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

5 hours ago, DemonOX said:

Of course you don’t however your post was 7 hours ago and it’s now 8am so that would make the time of your post around 1AM. 

I would think that is the WEE SMALL HOURS champ but whatever floats ur boat. 

I had been out after the game captain, with my lovely lady, was having a quick read of the predictable misery, so I could show her, she finds it both sad and hilarious

I know some of the kiddies on here have a curfew, but I don't

I still stand by what I said, we won, it wasn't pretty, but it was a win and nobody died

Some things to like including Rivers

Just having breakfast and a read after a late night, have to be careful at my age not to overdo it

[one_demon 826]

Some coaches do very well in their first year or two of coaching but then opposition coaches figure them out and they have no answer.  They then struggle for the rest of their career not able to come up with a good plan.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

11 minutes ago, old dee said:

IMO the problem is 90% FD. 

So players taking the wrong option, missing targets, not showing enough composure etc is on the FD?

I'd say it's 50/50.  

This is just one example, but in the last two minutes Jetta kicked the ball outside 50 where Trac dropped a simple mark.  Is that on the FD?  Lever then marks and kicks to a 2 on 1.  Is that on the FD?

Goodwin needs to learn that it's okay to have a Plan B and not be so stubborn.  When Carlton tightened the screws and made changes we stuck with what we were doing, even though it now wasn't working.  We need to have the ability to make changes according to what the opposition is doing to counter us.

But it's not totally on them.  The players need to take some responsibility as well.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,567]

I'm not entirely rapped with how yesterday panned out, but not completely shattered either.

So many are pointing the finger at Goodwin, but I think that's a bit harsh in some respects.  From what I understand, the role of runners is now even more limited than it once was, meaning there isn't that much oppertunity for coaches to swing changes or get messages out to players when the game is in motion.  The players need to start recognising what's going on and make some changes themselves.  Our on ball brigade aren't fresh rookies these days and need to stand up and take on the responsibility themselves.

If there was a quarter that nearly lost us the game more than any other, it was the third quarter.  I wasn't unhappy with the second given we had built a good lead in the first and then essentially held that when they threw everything at us.  But we should have done more to reset at half time and either broke even again or preferably extended our lead in the third.  Once they got within a few goals at 3/4 time, it was always going to come down to the wire as they essentially had nothing to loose and all the pressure was on us.  I did think we showed reasonable composure in the last quarter - the Melbourne of old would have thrown that game.   Patracca's steadying goal against the run of play was critical and I thought it was a huge credit to him the way he took responsibility for it and composure to nail it.

[titan_uranus 22,219]

7 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

So players taking the wrong option, missing targets, not showing enough composure etc is on the FD?

I'd say it's 50/50.  

This is just one example, but in the last two minutes Jetta kicked the ball outside 50 where Trac dropped a simple mark.  Is that on the FD?  Lever then marks and kicks to a 2 on 1.  Is that on the FD?

Goodwin needs to learn that it's okay to have a Plan B and not be so stubborn.  When Carlton tightened the screws and made changes we stuck with what we were doing, even though it now wasn't working.  We need to have the ability to make changes according to what the opposition is doing to counter us.

But it's not totally on them.  The players need to take some responsibility as well.

As is often the case on Demonland, everything's binary.

It's either the coaches, or the players.

IMO it's both.

We have a group of players who regularly fail to execute basic football requirements (two-way running, defensive pressure, holding uncontested marks, decision making under no pressure, getting back behind the mark, zoning, communicating with one another to stop three players flying at the ball, leaders disappearing).

But we also have a coaching group which is failing to fix those problems and has, I think, doubled-down on a rigid style of playing which exposes us to losses when we're not at 100%, which happens all too regularly.

Both sides are at fault and both sides need to improve.

Edited June 14, 2020 by titan_uranus

[buck_nekkid 5,458]

15 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I just worry that the Coach has no Plan B, at all. His Plan A is great when it rolls, but you have to expect that 17 other Coaches are going to work on structures to Counter it. 
Once this Happens Goodwin & Co leave themselves wide open. 
 

After Carlscum kicked their 2nd Goal, i knew what was going to happen, and it did. This club cannot defend once pressure is applied 

Even a Halftime Break didn’t change anything. 
Goodwin must get smarter or he won’t last. We should have lost that game. I will take the 4 points, but we dodged a bullet no doubt

So Carlton put an extra behind the ball, tightened up around the contest, and ran harder both ways.  They positioned better at stoppages to feed of Max and closed our exits when we got it first.  The boys on the park have to find ways to counter these simple strategems - even an under 12’s coach would get their team to do these things when they are being belted.  And our response?  Build pressure on ourselves and panic.

[manny100 1,000]

It was amazing in the last q. We would bomb it long to a 1 against 2 or 3 contest over and over or so it seemed. They win I say well it will come straight back as we have a couple of extra up the field. I was wrong they would find an a lose player to kick to. Others seeing that would have shaken their heads in disbelief as well. This was for most of the last q or so it seemed.

That comes back to awareness, composure and on field leadership. We can only improve on that. No doubt Coaches will be stressing composure etc and how to cope with momentum loss and regain it.

Do that against the top sides and it will be very ugly.

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

Just now, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

I'm not entirely rapped with how yesterday panned out, but not completely shattered either.

So many are pointing the finger at Goodwin, but I think that's a bit harsh in some respects.  From what I understand, the role of runners is now even more limited than it once was, meaning there isn't that much oppertunity for coaches to swing changes or get messages out to players when the game is in motion.  The players need to start recognising what's going on and make some changes themselves.  Our on ball brigade aren't fresh rookies these days and need to stand up and take on the responsibility themselves.

If there was a quarter that nearly lost us the game more than any other, it was the third quarter.  I wasn't unhappy with the second given we had built a good lead in the first and then essentially held that when they threw everything at us.  But we should have done more to reset at half time and either broke even again or preferably extended our lead in the third.  Once they got within a few goals at 3/4 time, it was always going to come down to the wire as they essentially had nothing to loose and all the pressure was on us.  I did think we showed reasonable composure in the last quarter - the Melbourne of old would have thrown that game.   Patracca's steadying goal against the run of play was critical and I thought it was a huge credit to him the way he took responsibility for it and composure to nail it.

Between  the 2nd & 3rd Quarters, there is a Halftime Break. 
That is a crucial time Goodwin is paid top $$ to perform

The 2nd half was appalling. 1 goal under a roof against a bottom side....

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,567]

5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Between  the 2nd & 3rd Quarters, there is a Halftime Break. 
That is a crucial time Goodwin is paid top $$ to perform

The 2nd half was appalling. 1 goal under a roof against a bottom side....

Agree.

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

2 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

So Carlton put an extra behind the ball, tightened up around the contest, and ran harder both ways.  They positioned better at stoppages to feed of Max and closed our exits when we got it first.  The boys on the park have to find ways to counter these simple strategems - even an under 12’s coach would get their team to do these things when they are being belted.  And our response?  Build pressure on ourselves and panic.

Exactly. It is not hard to change momentum, if you train to do it

Good teams do it every week, unless the opposition does it better. 
We just let it roll yesterday...

1 goal in the 2nd half under the roof

Astounding really

[Wiseblood 24,636]

4 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Both sides are at fault and both sides need to improve.

Couldn't agree more, titan.

The first 1.5 quarters of the game was what we want to see from our side, and what we've been built to do - winning clearances, getting numbers around the ball and applying high pressure in the forward half.  Both the coaches and players work in tandem superbly here, and we know we are capable of this kind of footy on a regular basis.

And then they let each other down.  Goodwin and the coaches don't make enough adjustments when the opposition does, or they are changes that I can't see.  The players, for their part, begin to panic, miss targets, don't run hard enough and generally don't respond well enough when the pressure is on.  When the tide begins to turn, neither the FD or the players step up to the plate enough, and we go from a well oiled machine to one that is breaking down and barely able to cross the finish line.

I have hope, and after a few months off, coupled with different training conditions, means we are probably a little rusty (as most teams are), but I'm interested to see how we respond in the next three weeks.  

As a side note, I also think our selection was a little.... off.  I don't think Bennell or Jackson were really ready to play yesterday, and it hurt us a little bit.  Add this to the fact that we had a number of key players down throughout the game and we're rather lucky to walk away with a win.  But I'll take it.

[titan_uranus 22,219]

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Exactly. It is not hard to change momentum, if you train to do it

Good teams do it every week, unless the opposition does it better. 
We just let it roll yesterday...

1 goal in the 2nd half under the roof

Astounding really

This is your big point?

In a round where Collingwood scored 0 goals in 2.5 quarters and combined with Richmond for 10 goals in perfect football conditions, Hawthorn scored 1 goal in a half, and West Coast scored 1 goal in a half against a bunch of teenagers?

[old55 21,213]

14 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Not sure Goody has an edge that will put much fear (if any) into any of this lot.  Too complacent and easy going.

Traded Watts and Hogan and dropped his mate Hibberd.  I don't think lack of edge is a problem.

[Willmoy1947 3,760]

I saw a Melbourne Player do one of the smartest kicks to advantage in about three years and he's only played 2  Games

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

2 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

This is your big point?

In a round where Collingwood scored 0 goals in 2.5 quarters and combined with Richmond for 10 goals in perfect football conditions, Hawthorn scored 1 goal in a half, and West Coast scored 1 goal in a half against a bunch of teenagers?

All those sides you mention weren’t playing indoors against Carltank 

But we were.
1 Goal in 2.5 Quarters is not acceptable 

We were lucky only because Carlton suck

[old dee 22,808]

13 minutes ago, manny100 said:

It was amazing in the last q. We would bomb it long to a 1 against 2 or 3 contest over and over or so it seemed. They win I say well it will come straight back as we have a couple of extra up the field. I was wrong they would find an a lose player to kick to. Others seeing that would have shaken their heads in disbelief as well. This was for most of the last q or so it seemed.

That comes back to awareness, composure and on field leadership. We can only improve on that. No doubt Coaches will be stressing composure etc and how to cope with momentum loss and regain it.

Do that against the top sides and it will be very ugly.

They have been ago g this way for 3 years min. What is the FD doing to change it?

[old dee 22,808]

26 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

So players taking the wrong option, missing targets, not showing enough composure etc is on the FD?

I'd say it's 50/50.  

This is just one example, but in the last two minutes Jetta kicked the ball outside 50 where Trac dropped a simple mark.  Is that on the FD?  Lever then marks and kicks to a 2 on 1.  Is that on the FD?

Goodwin needs to learn that it's okay to have a Plan B and not be so stubborn.  When Carlton tightened the screws and made changes we stuck with what we were doing, even though it now wasn't working.  We need to have the ability to make changes according to what the opposition is doing to counter us.

But it's not totally on them.  The players need to take some responsibility as well.

Ok I will agree it is less than 90% but the players are not responsible for the players picked or what position they play in. Smith is not a Back man and neither is  Harmes, why you pick Jackson for that games leaves me in wonderment. He had not played one game above under 18 level. From reports his practise form was average at best. Why pick him? 

He may be injured but why no AVB? 

 

[titan_uranus 22,219]

15 minutes ago, manny100 said:

It was amazing in the last q. We would bomb it long to a 1 against 2 or 3 contest over and over or so it seemed. They win I say well it will come straight back as we have a couple of extra up the field. I was wrong they would find an a lose player to kick to. Others seeing that would have shaken their heads in disbelief as well. This was for most of the last q or so it seemed.

That comes back to awareness, composure and on field leadership. We can only improve on that. No doubt Coaches will be stressing composure etc and how to cope with momentum loss and regain it.

Do that against the top sides and it will be very ugly.

I've just watched the final two minutes again (here).

It starts with Carlton bringing the ball back after Fritsch's miss. Our zone is woeful. Jones and Brayshaw are guarding space leaving Fritsch to defend three Blues. Docherty's poor handpass stops them getting it out.

Then Salem kicks to Melksham who can't get the ball over the line, it comes back to Salem who gets crunched, and when Carlton get possession you hear Garry Lyon say "oh, they're out". Why? Because we've pushed our defensive zone so far up the ground that we've left space out the back.

Walsh's kick to Mackay is Melbourne-esque and Jetta gets the free. He looks to go down the line, Viney and Hunt are open near the boundary, but I think (and maybe I'm being generous here) he mis-kicks it so it goes in board. Still, Petracca is there to take the uncontested mark, but fluffs it (maybe his only mistake all day, to be fair). Ball gets back to Walsh who, MFC-esque again, fails to see Casboult on his own and kicks it straight to Lever.

Lever then, correctly, looks down the other wing which is where he should be kicking it. No one leads there other than Fritsch. Meanwhile Joel Smith is standing in the goalsquare telling everyone to pause. Most of our forwards/mids are stuck on the other side of the ground and appear too tired or unwilling to get across to help Lever (Brayshaw is, again, in no-man's land).

Lever is forced to kick to the 2-on-1 but the Carlton player runs under the ball and we're able to clear. Langdon and Tomlinson gut run into the 50 to give us options and that's enough time off the clock to win.

One poor kick (Jetta's, but possibly a mis-kick rather than a bad choice) but the poor defensive positioning and lack of running was a bigger problem.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,396]

1 hour ago, TheKozzieExperience said:

Ok enough negativity, how good was Petracca?  His 2nd goal when the Blues were destroying us and we needed someone to step up had superstar written all over it.

Yep I was really impressed a couple of times when he went to a contest to help out his teammates who were stuck handballing each other into trouble. Noone else went in to help but Petracca ran to the contest, bustled through to collect the ball and split the contest open helping us maintain possession and move the footy forward

[titan_uranus 22,219]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yep I was really impressed a couple of times when he went to a contest to help out his teammates who were stuck handballing each other into trouble. Noone else went in to help but Petracca ran to the contest, bustled through to collect the ball and split the contest open helping us maintain possession and move the footy forward

Agree. He has the ability to take the ball in a stoppage and burst his way out, but then to use the ball well after that.

Oliver and Viney are capable of bursting from a stoppage but rarely seem to be able to then damage with it.

His third quarter goal was sublime as well.