Where did it all go wrong for the Demons?

[Sir Why You Little 34,406]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

So, let's hear it, have we posters who are responsible for the basket case of a club that some on here keep repeating it is?

What are you talking about?

Seriously are you blaming supporters for the 56 year drought?

you just lash out at whatever is in front of you. If younger supporters want to know about the past, then they are allowed to know. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,396]

18 hours ago, Macca said:

I'll keep an eye out for it Gonzo

This is the video I was referring to - others may have seen this but I hadn't seen an extended version of his interview on the Tony Charlton Football Show before.If you don't want to watch the whole thing it starts around the 18m30s mark

 

[Macca 16,173]

4 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

When our board is based deep inside the Mcc, and has Mcc approved directors,  how are we supposed to expect a board,  that can think outside of the original box,  to be able to make big changes required,  to set the club up independently,  for our futures sake.

 

Hell,  the last time we had a major, sorry,  the 2nd last time we had a major hurdle regarding the clubs existence as the Demons,  was when our off field leaders were to recommend we merge the club.

 

Are we so bereft of ideas and of courage,  that we think that Merging is preferable...  to being based outside the Mcg walls.?

.

History tells us that the merger was more a takeover of the Hawks.  Which I wouldn't have wanted either.

In an ideal World we'd still have South & Fitzroy playing out of Melbourne.  And some suburban venues such as Carlton,  Footscray and a redeveloped Junction Oval.  Maybe even Moorabbin.  Big crowds at footy venues isn't the be all and end all (IMO)

I really liked the PJ & Roos combo and if they'd stayed on the other Pillars might have ended up as valuable as those 2.  Or improved to that sort of level.  You need standard setter's.

But I don't believe we've got anyone that is incompetent in important positions at the club but there's not many standouts.  Kind of reflects the current board. 

Home base will help of course but we need top people in charge in all the important positions.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

The weakness in the Roos and PJ situation was neither were doing it for the love of the Club. We have not  had a passionate, dynamic and capable leader like Eddie or Kennett. 

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

31 minutes ago, Macca said:

I don't believe we've got anyone that is incompetent in important positions at the club but there's not many standouts.  Kind of reflects the current board. 

I have some confidence in those of the Board at the moment.  But my fear is what will happen at board level in just a few years to come... when we have all seen the outcomes of a half-century of Boards,  structured the way we've all grown up with.

 

 we've gotten the boards we deserved because the supporter base votes on people recommended to them via the Mcc & Mfc.  Without knowing these people.

 

[Macca 16,173]

41 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is the video I was referring to - others may have seen this but I hadn't seen an extended version of his interview on the Tony Charlton Football Show before.If you don't want to watch the whole thing it starts around the 18m30s mark

 

Yeah thanks Gonzo

That was fabulous.  And you're right,  it looked as though he had never ending issues with the Board.  Something had to give and it did. 

And once the chord was severed,  that was it. But talent is talent and the zones weren't necessarily going to offer up stars aplenty and they didn't.

So even if the sacking didn't happen how would we have been able to build and maintain a great list?  Norm might have been able to swing something you'd imagine.  Get the zones changed or raid the interstate clubs ... but without Board support?  Big ask.

[Macca 16,173]

24 minutes ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

I have some confidence in those of the Board at the moment.  But my fear is what will happen at board level in just a few years to come... when we have all seen the outcomes of a half-century of Boards,  structured the way we've all grown up with.

 

 we've gotten the boards we deserved because the supporter base votes on people recommended to them via the Mcc & Mfc.  Without knowing these people.

 

As members we get to have a say but it's kind of token.  We're in the lap of the gods really

We have to hope that those involved are smart enough to know what to do and bring other smart people on board.

Who then continually make excellent appointments in all areas of the club.

We're just mere onlookers.  There's been coups and takeovers at various other clubs but that doesn't always work.  We ourselves have seen a bit of that but we often end up with more of the same. 

Here's hoping for a winning season though ... 9 & 8 or better in a reduced season?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Macca

[DEE fence 4,414]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is the video I was referring to - others may have seen this but I hadn't seen an extended version of his interview on the Tony Charlton Football Show before.If you don't want to watch the whole thing it starts around the 18m30s mark

 

Good bit of vision of the Chairman of Selectors, Ivor Warne-Smith sitting with Smith, confidant and foil (and occasionally sparring partner) I always heard that the match committee was described as the architects of the premierships, they were to a man, humble and worked as a team. This back office coordination I feel had something to do with how the team ran well. The same people who described this to me, moaned endlessly about how amateur the club became/stayed when the league went professional, and how much the end of the match committee affected stability of the back office.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

16 minutes ago, Macca said:

As members we get to have a say but it's kind of token.  We're in the lap of the gods really

We have to hope that those involved are smart enough to know what to do and bring other smart people on board.

Who then continually make excellent appointments in all areas of the club.

We're just mere onlookers.  There's been coups and takeovers at various other clubs but that doesn't always work.  We ourselves have seen a bit of that but we often end up with more of the same. 

Here's hoping for a winning season though ... 9 & 8 or better in a reduced season?

I hope you don't think I'm edging at a coup... nothing could be further from my thinking.

But you mentioned that we vote almost in a tokenist way...  it should not be like this and any wonder we get failure as a footy club.  going on mail with suggested prospective directors. 

 

I wouldn't believe any recommendation from the cricket hierarchy towards the Demons.

 

[Macca 16,173]

13 minutes ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

I hope you don't think I'm edging at a coup... nothing could be further from my thinking.

But you mentioned that we vote almost in a tokenist way...  it should not be like this and any wonder we get failure as a footy club.  going on mail with suggested prospective directors. 

 

I wouldn't believe any recommendation from the cricket hierarchy towards the Demons.

 

All the clubs are the pretty much the same with regards to voting rights and the influence of our votes.

Certain types are recommended to the Board by the Board and those types are nearly always voted in.

To make a real difference requires a coup,  takeover,  the board stepping down or an agreed changeover.  So we've got voting rights as individuals but it's token. 

You want to change all that,  good luck.

At suburban level,  it's vastly different.  Often all the positions are up for grabs (every single season)

As previously stated,  we're in the lap of the gods.  It's not giving up either,  just a dose of realism.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Macca

[Dr. Gonzo 22,396]

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

The weakness in the Roos and PJ situation was neither were doing it for the love of the Club. We have not  had a passionate, dynamic and capable leader like Eddie or Kennett. 

We had Jimmy ?

[Dr. Gonzo 22,396]

30 minutes ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

I hope you don't think I'm edging at a coup... nothing could be further from my thinking.

But you mentioned that we vote almost in a tokenist way...  it should not be like this and any wonder we get failure as a footy club.  going on mail with suggested prospective directors. 

 

I wouldn't believe any recommendation from the cricket hierarchy towards the Demons.

 

The problem I've always had with Board elections is I wouldn't have any idea what any of their agendas are. The only thing I have to go on is their resume or public profile. I have no idea what platform they are running on or how competent they are to run a footy club.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We had Jimmy ?

Sure, but tragically Jimmy never had the long tenure the others have had.

[pitmaster 3,052]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:41 PM, Macca said:

In a nutshell the board members wouldn't have wanted to stand by Smith (and they didn't) as they themselves would have then been directly associated with Smith's comment that umpire Don Blew was a cheat. 

 

He didn't say Blew was a cheat. That's a common misrepresentation.

He said umpires are prone to favouring struggling teams as a human frailty.

He actually suggested umpires are human. Go figure.

Blew chose to make an issue of it but read Red Fox for the true story and to see what was really said.

Blew cared so much that the case was never heard.

Despite all that the board was a disgrace for not backing Smith.

[pitmaster 3,052]

12 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

It’s been a curse. 
 

Injuries have hurt us more than anyone. Moore’s back.  Lyon’s back.  Schwarz’s knee. Jakovich’s back. Tingay’s nerve damage. Many many others had careers cut short when they could have years ahead. 
 

Bad attitude and arrogance.  The tanking was ridiculous.  It led to a losing attitude which took 10 years to work through. It still haunts us. Chris Connolly and Danny Corcoran and Cam Schwab.

Settle down. Danny left in 2004 to become CEO of Athletics Australia.

Posters get a little loose here from time to time. This one's a beauty.

[Hogan2014 390]

16 hours ago, praha said:

Daniher should have been moved on after 2003. And definitely after our breakdown in 2004. In 2005 we lost 7 games in a row and barely made finals..In 2006 we lost our first 3 games and also lost to Carlton twice (won 3 games for the year) costing us a top 4 spot. 

In hindsigh it is rather astonishing that Daniher lasted as long as he did. 

A consistent theme in every season they have played finals losing multiple games in a row to miss out on making the top 4 & just scraping in. 2018 another missed opportunity to make the top 4 , lost to the Cats twice when in winning positions. Can’t seem to maintain the intensity & a history of falling of the cliff eg 2019. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Hogan2014

[Supreme_Demon 3,009]

Thank you all for your insights.

They are greatly appreciated.

I never knew any of this information.

Nevertheless, I apologise for bringing up unpleasant memories. It was not my intention to upset anybody or cause animosity.

 

The lack of funds and lack of resources for such a long period of time really shocks me. You would think the MCC would of WANTED the MFC to be successful as it would be beneficial for bigger crowds and increased revenue!? Or they simply didn't care which club it was (e.g. Richmond) as long as they brought big crowds.

 

I certainly agree with others here that the Melbourne Football Club definitely needs a proper home base as many others have mentioned. The big issue is funding and having the right location.

 

I watched the Norm Smith interview. I can certainly understand Norm's frustration with the MFC board. They should have backed him......rightly or wrongly...at the very least privately and paid for the compensation payment that Norm Smith had to pay in an out of court settlement to that umpire Don Glew.

 

At least paying the compensation would of showed Norm that the MFC board cared for him. An honourable man who played in 4 Premierships and coached 6 Premierships for the Melbourne Football Club. A simply amazing feat to be involved with 10 Premierships for the Demons! I think Norm felt betrayed by the MFC board and the club he loved so much and had given so much of his life to. Norm Smith was "Melbourne through and through" and basically didn't get the support he needed. This was a failure of all those on the MFC board at the time in the mid 1960s and why Norm Smith wanted the members to rise up and vote them out to bring about fresh changes.

 

Finally, I would still like to know if it was true that Norm Smith ran in an election to join the Melbourne Football Club board in 1967-1968 though? Did he run in that election and did he not gain enough votes? Does anyone have that information?

[Mel Bourne 3,596]

Somewhere between 1861-1862. 

[spirit of norm smith 12,834]

6 hours ago, Supreme_Demon said:

Thank you all for your insights.

They are greatly appreciated.

I never knew any of this information.

Nevertheless, I apologise for bringing up unpleasant memories. It was not my intention to upset anybody or cause animosity.

 

The lack of funds and lack of resources for such a long period of time really shocks me. You would think the MCC would of WANTED the MFC to be successful as it would be beneficial for bigger crowds and increased revenue!? Or they simply didn't care which club it was (e.g. Richmond) as long as they brought big crowds.

 

I certainly agree with others here that the Melbourne Football Club definitely needs a proper home base as many others have mentioned. The big issue is funding and having the right location.

 

I watched the Norm Smith interview. I can certainly understand Norm's frustration with the MFC board. They should have backed him......rightly or wrongly...at the very least privately and paid for the compensation payment that Norm Smith had to pay in an out of court settlement to that umpire Don Glew.

 

At least paying the compensation would of showed Norm that the MFC board cared for him. An honourable man who played in 4 Premierships and coached 6 Premierships for the Melbourne Football Club. A simply amazing feat to be involved with 10 Premierships for the Demons! I think Norm felt betrayed by the MFC board and the club he loved so much and had given so much of his life to. Norm Smith was "Melbourne through and through" and basically didn't get the support he needed. This was a failure of all those on the MFC board at the time in the mid 1960s and why Norm Smith wanted the members to rise up and vote them out to bring about fresh changes.

 

Finally, I would still like to know if it was true that Norm Smith ran in an election to join the Melbourne Football Club board in 1967-1968 though? Did he run in that election and did he not gain enough votes? Does anyone have that information?

Lots of good points here.  It does show the issue of the time about freedom for the club and the football department above administration or committees.  We are well beyond that now thankfully.... hopefully 

[Winners at last 4,683]

"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there." 

The Go Between, L.P. Hartley

[Deemania since 56 6,119]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:17 PM, Macca said:

The laws of libel & slander would have been the reason why the club didn't back Smith when he called the umpire a cheat.

It was a silly thing for Norm to do anyway ... a man of his maturity reducing himself down to acting like a blinkered supporter.

And why would the Board members hand themselves a criminal record all because a coach has lost the plot.  Smith settled with the umpire (out of court) so there's your answer in a nutshell. 

Great coach all the same.

But the truth is the team was becoming weaker because of the zones and Smith (IMO) turned his attention to the lowest common denominator.  The umpires. 

We no longer had carte-blanche for the emerging talent (via the recruiting genius Jim Cardwell) and that continued on until drafting appeared.

I, too, reckon that the loss of Cardwell was a key reason for the decline - it seemed to reinforce the terrible (and brewing) decline in so many other areas of the Club's history. To me, his last 'great act' was the headline on the front of 'The Sun' newspaper about the recruitment of John Tilbrook, for whom every club had a finger in the pie regarding his ascension to the VFL from SA. This headline simply stated: 'We've got him!', a testament to the dozens of extremely good and starring players that Jim acquired for the Dees above all other clubs in the competition. That Tilbrook was not an actual star for us was disappointing; however, his acquisition was clearly a marque of Cardwell - the best recruiter that the League ever had - and We had Him! 

[george_on_the_outer 6,944]

13 hours ago, Supreme_Demon said:

 

Finally, I would still like to know if it was true that Norm Smith ran in an election to join the Melbourne Football Club board in 1967-1968 though? Did he run in that election and did he not gain enough votes? Does anyone have that information?

Yes, that is correct.  None of the existing committee would stand aside, to simply let Norm join, so it went to an election.  4 of the committee ran tickets that placed Norm last on their how-to-vote cards to protect their own positions!!

Norm finished 9th in a contest for the 8 roles, nearly 100 votes behind no. 8.  That was the final insult.  Peter Smith, his son, who was playing for the Demons at the time, left to go to Carlton as he also wanted nothing to do with the club any more. 

In " The Red Fox" he recalled"....But I suspect those blokes were thinking more about their own positions than what was good for the club.  They were also thinking that Dad would shake them up a bit too much....Maybe some of them felt it would have been a bit too much for them to handle"

Edited May 19, 2020 by george_on_the_outer

[Macca 16,173]

It can't be presumed that Don Blew was a cheat even though that was the alleged accusation

It could be presumed that Don Blew was a fair and unbiased umpire,  a family man with children at school and holding down a job outside football etc etc.

And the most powerful figure in football labels him a cheat.  These days those accusations would be seen as bullying etc. 

Norm made a mistake,  he wasn't perfect,  no one is.  And I reckon he would have regretted the words that he said.  Lets face it,  the chain of events that followed wouldn't have taken the same path if Norm had said nothing.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The problem I've always had with Board elections is I wouldn't have any idea what any of their agendas are. The only thing I have to go on is their resume or public profile. I have no idea what platform they are running on or how competent they are to run a footy club.

Yes.  and its not good enough recieving propaganda in an email of letter sent out.

We should be able to mix with these people at our home base, and to meet them after games.  This will allow members and supporters to get to know the people running, or want to, our club.

This would make a much smarter club, with real people being attached to the club.

IF any had an attitude they were too good to be mixing with regular Mfc supporters, then they would be the wrong FIT,  for our club.  All for one and one for all.

 

This way the supporters will be able to see and hear,  be able to tell if the potential directors are right for this footy club.   Democracy in action.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

23 minutes ago, Macca said:

It can't be presumed that Don Blew was a cheat even though that was the alleged accusation

It could be presumed that Don Blew was a fair and unbiased umpire,  a family man with children at school and holding down a job outside football etc etc.

And the most powerful figure in football labels him a cheat.  These days those accusations would be seen as bullying etc. 

Norm made a mistake,  he wasn't perfect,  no one is.  And I reckon he would have regretted the words that he said.  Lets face it,  the chain of events that followed wouldn't have taken the same path if Norm had said nothing.

Blew or no Blew...  its totally irrelevant,  and just a sideshow to the real reasons of our deemise.

 

The real reason is the disconnect between the Board and the clubs people.   Hence the lacking support for Norm's position.  And also the lack of support in finance to secure our players,  and to build improved facilities for training,  and socially.

Not too much different today.

 

So, the roadblock is always at the Board level,  to provide the necessary action for the club to prosper.