Male players may give up cash to fund AFLW pay rises

[binman 37,724]

 

23 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Expansion for the sake of expansion doesn't make sense, it killed the mens game for 10 years and the product is still no where near as good. 

On one level i agree with the bolded bit. It was always a risk creating  new teams and thinning the talent pool and there was a strong argument for leaving it as it was for at least another year.

I also agree the talent pool is stretched too thin in the AFL and it has impacted the game (just look at the number of players coming up from state leagues and lower levels something that rarely  used to happen)

But a big difference between the two comps is that unlike the men's game participation is growing exponentially in women's football, at both the senior level but more crucially the junior level.

As Terry Wallace points out the standard will take a huge jump when girls who started playing at say under 12s start entering the AFLW in numbers. That process has commenced and will accelerate quickly in the next few seasons. Which will mean more natural footballers with all the skills like Daisy and less elite level athletes coming across from other sports that haven't grown up playing footy.

So the extra teams is in some ways a calculated gamble. More teams, more reach to female fans of those teams driving increased participation and a bigger talent pool. Just look at how many saints fan turned up to watch them. I'll bet 3/4 were parents and their daughters.  

The other factor about more AFLW teams is that there are more players training at an elite level. And these players go back to the VFLW as fitter an d better players.

More teams also increases the opportunity and pathways for young guns and those who aspire to play AFLW.

 

[daisycutter 28,430]

42 minutes ago, binman said:

 

On one level i agree with the bolded bit. It was always a risk creating  new teams and thinning the talent pool and there was a strong argument for leaving it as it was for at least another year.

I also agree the talent pool is stretched too thin in the AFL and it has impacted the game (just look at the number of players coming up from state leagues and lower levels something that rarely  used to happen)

But a big difference between the two comps is that unlike the men's game participation is growing exponentially in women's football, at both the senior level but more crucially the junior level.

As Terry Wallace points out the standard will take a huge jump when girls who started playing at say under 12s start entering the AFLW in numbers. That process has commenced and will accelerate quickly in the next few seasons. Which will mean more natural footballers with all the skills like Daisy and less elite level athletes coming across from other sports that haven't grown up playing footy.

So the extra teams is in some ways a calculated gamble. More teams, more reach to female fans of those teams driving increased participation and a bigger talent pool. Just look at how many saints fan turned up to watch them. I'll bet 3/4 were parents and their daughters.  

The other factor about more AFLW teams is that there are more players training at an elite level. And these players go back to the VFLW as fitter an d better players.

More teams also increases the opportunity and pathways for young guns and those who aspire to play AFLW.

 

it's easy to argue both ways. binman, because in the end it's just opinion trying to predict the future and the best way to get there.

at the moment the big issue is money. the aflw women have already flagged it. at the moment the aflw comp is basically an amateur comp lasting 8 weeks (with any player payments lucky to cover player's overheads). there has to be a transition whereby the comp allows for a living wage by becoming fully professional. Only then can you truly get an elite game.

so far i have yet to see a business case as to where this money will come from. Money-wise aflw is just another franchise money pit to add to gcs and gws with no relief money-wise in sight.

but i'm sure gil has all the answers ?

[old dee 22,802]

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

it's easy to argue both ways. binman, because in the end it's just opinion trying to predict the future and the best way to get there.

at the moment the big issue is money. the aflw women have already flagged it. at the moment the aflw comp is basically an amateur comp lasting 8 weeks (with any player payments lucky to cover player's overheads). there has to be a transition whereby the comp allows for a living wage by becoming fully professional. Only then can you truly get an elite game.

so far i have yet to see a business case as to where this money will come from. Money-wise aflw is just another franchise money pit to add to gcs and gws with no relief money-wise in sight.

but i'm sure gil has all the answers ?

Agree with 99% of that dc.

And I know you have your tongue in your cheek however I don't think he does. Has created another AFL money pit. 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,567]

16 hours ago, Rab D Nesbitt said:

You have to wonder if the game is finally reaching it's zenith commercially. With little prospect of the competition expanding into new markets domestically, two current markets (GWS & GC) being heavily subsidised and seemingly little appeal overseas to viewers and advertisers (relative to other major codes) it's hard to see where they can go next. The NZ and China experiments tend to attract two guys and a dog which isn't totally surprising when they send some of our poorest performing clubs to showcase the game. Is sending GC to Darwin to play another cellar dweller every year really a good advertisement for our code? AFLW is surely just a teeny part of the overall financial picture at the moment. 

AFLW is driving a huge increase in participation at the grass roots level, so that's the new horizons that the AFL is pursuing and achieving at the moment.

Also as a fair portion of the AFL's revenue is derived from female interest in the game, in the current enviroment, don't think it's good practice to upset that portion of the market and at the same time also perhaps an oppertunity to expand that part of the market as it applies to the commercials of the mens game as well.

I do see the AFLW as a complementary addition in these regards and over time moves to equalise the pay of female players as sensible.  Much better the AFL fairly aggressively pursue equal pay timetable on their terms than to have it imposed by outside forces.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,137]

A huge element of the AFL's plunge on the Women's League is promoting the game and actively seeking the participation of girls and women in football.  It is is not, as some would put it, a 'lefty indulgence in political correctness'.  It is quite a shrewd business decision that has already seen an explosion in participation of girls and women at the grass roots level.  The AFL is actively engaging 50% of the population in football so they may tap that market to make more money. 

The relatively small amount that goes into the league, when you take away advertising money is cash very well spent shoring up the future of the Australian Football code. 

 

[binman 37,724]

20 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

AFLW is driving a huge increase in participation at the grass roots level, so that's the new horizons that the AFL is pursuing and achieving at the moment.

Also as a fair portion of the AFL's revenue is derived from female interest in the game, in the current enviroment

Spot on hot rod.

As Ras D Nesbit rightly pointed out football the AFL is limited to an Australian market., unlike say basketball and soccer - footy's two biggest natural competitors for both viewers and participants.  So broadcast rights have a natural cap.

Supporting and driving women's football makes sound business sense in terms of ensuring half of the Australian population are encouraged to watch and AFL games. the AFL can get overseas viewers. So it can't afford to lose potential viewers here. if it does attendance will drop (and of course the revenue), club membership will drop (ditto) and broadcast rights will be less valuable. 

Discussion about pay rates and what might be regarded as elite are furphys. 

This is an investment. Not charity or some feel good exercise in promoting quality. A shrewd investment in my opinion. 

Soccer is decades ahead in this space. But look where they are now. The Matlidas are arguably Australia's most loved national team. And are great to watch. 

Snap TPF39

Edited February 13, 2020 by binman
Snap TPF39

[imElated 4]

16 hours ago, praha said:

Imagine being asked to give up your deserved salary increase to fund a subpar, below-average womens league.

Below average compared to what? There's no professional womens league to compare it to.

 

At the moment women can't dedicate their life to the sport and train for it to the same level the men can because theres just no money in it. Why would you dedicate your life to something you can't get a career out of? If they want the womens competition to be better, for all the players to be better, they need to put more funding into it so that training to be an AFLW player is worth it.

[daisycutter 28,430]

9 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

AFLW is driving a huge increase in participation at the grass roots level, so that's the new horizons that the AFL is pursuing and achieving at the moment.

Also as a fair portion of the AFL's revenue is derived from female interest in the game, in the current enviroment, don't think it's good practice to upset that portion of the market and at the same time also perhaps an oppertunity to expand that part of the market as it applies to the commercials of the mens game as well.

I do see the AFLW as a complementary addition in these regards and over time moves to equalise the pay of female players as sensible.  Much better the AFL fairly aggressively pursue equal pay timetable on their terms than to have it imposed by outside forces.

sorry rgb but that is just a load of platitudes

as for equal pay. why? afl players are on individual contracts based on their own personal talents, limited of course by the salary cap. The salary cap is set from a share of the afl income (from men). less afl income, less salary cap, less individual contract value. 

So the issue of aflw player payments should (utimately) be an issue of aflw income. There is no entitlement here. male afl players don't all get the same contract value and the contracts they do get reflect a combination of their individual talent and the profitability of the afl comp. 

[58er 5,568]

Really this is a no brainer

if all AFL players were to have 1% off their salary then it would be easily possible to run the AFLW at present and the next 2/3 expansion years for all 18 Clubs yes even Kennets Koalas and Swannies Snakes and Bombers Babies plus Kochies Kuties join and survive.

In that time semi professionalism should have developed with SAlary Caps and budgets firmly regulated.

None of the Clubs so far seem to have any problems getting sponsorship and the AFL should be prepared to put some coin in and reduce Gills toddlers in Gold Coasters  and GWS easy handout packages.

And any suggestions in future about the AFL and AFLW for Shanghai or Stewart Island (Sorry Kiwiland) or India pass on to Kevin Sheedy to put back his coinage from 50 years of accepting revenue from AFL and his 3 Clubs.!!!

Easy fix isn't it Gil and Shocking !!!

[Smokey 4,112]

18 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

sorry rgb but that is just a load of platitudes

as for equal pay. why? afl players are on individual contracts based on their own personal talents, limited of course by the salary cap. The salary cap is set from a share of the afl income (from men). less afl income, less salary cap, less individual contract value. 

So the issue of aflw player payments should (utimately) be an issue of aflw income. There is no entitlement here. male afl players don't all get the same contract value and the contracts they do get reflect a combination of their individual talent and the profitability of the afl comp. 

Why do you care so much about about other peoples money? I can't imagine this affects you personally in any way, shape or form. 

Weird stuff 

[JakovichScissorKick 771]

AFL is not for women.

Have a look how many ACL injuries there are.   The only time I ever see a headline for AFLW its yet another chick tearing her knee ligaments.

[deegirl 1,282]

Do you know how much I would've loved to play footy when i was a kid/teenager?  Because I'm female I didn't play ANY,  it just wasn't an option.

It annoys me so much when you all bag out AFLW.  Something that's always been an option for men is now just opening up to women. 

 

Get behind it instead of trashing it.  

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

3 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

It literally is the elite level of women's footy.

Doesn't matter if you think "it ain't ready" (what does that even mean anyway?), it's here, so deal with it.

The Competition right now is far from elite. 
the talent pool is spread way to thin. Needs time to grow, like any decent product. 
You can deal with it anyway you like, For myself it is unwatchable at this stage. So i will do something else. 
 

[daisycutter 28,430]

1 hour ago, Smokey said:

Why do you care so much about about other peoples money? I can't imagine this affects you personally in any way, shape or form. 

Weird stuff 

why do you care about my opinion on on something you say i shouldn't care about? Does it affect you?

you enjoy being on discussion forums?

and before we go on let me say i think it's great that women can play aussie rules. I'm all for it and i hope it is  great success. I also support the afl getting it established. I hope one day aflw becomes a fully fledged professional elite competition that is able to stand on its own and fund itself. ......so, does that make me weird?

great have a meaningful discussion with you......not

Edited February 13, 2020 by daisycutter
don't know why "aflw" became [censored]

[Fork 'em 6,505]

1 hour ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

AFL is not for women.

Have a look how many ACL injuries there are.   The only time I ever see a headline for AFLW its yet another chick tearing her knee ligaments.

 
Can make for some uncomfortable viewing when they don't protect themselves properly going in or come down in and uncoordinated heap when tackled.
In our game on the weekend there were 2 injuries that looked nasty.
Our girl come good and managed to play on but the North player did her shoulder in a tackle when hitting the ground.

Having said that I enjoy watching the game mainly due to their enthusiasm but find the game similar to under 12 boys ATM with the skill level and scorelines.

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Fork 'em

[Lord Nev 13,511]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The Competition right now is far from elite. 
the talent pool is spread way to thin. Needs time to grow, like any decent product. 
You can deal with it anyway you like, For myself it is unwatchable at this stage. So i will do something else. 
 

It's the elite level of women's footy. Your argument is baseless.

No one is asking you to watch it, nor are they asking for your opinion on it.

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

It's the elite level of women's footy. Your argument is baseless.

No one is asking you to watch it, nor are they asking for your opinion on it.

I will give my opinions, just like everyone else. 
it is only an “elite” competition because the AFL have put it there. It needs years of improvement yet, but if you are satisfied then so be it. Having read your comments on many different sites I expect nothing more. 

[Pennant St Dee 11,241]

Nothing to see here, if they aren't prepared to take pay cuts to increase Rookie wages, can't see them taking a cut for this cause.

AFPA is always telling us the players have short careers and need to maximize their limited window to earn what they can

[Lord Nev 13,511]

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I will give my opinions, just like everyone else. 
it is only an “elite” competition because the AFL have put it there. It needs years of improvement yet, but if you are satisfied then so be it. Having read your comments on many different sites I expect nothing more. 

It's an 'elite' competition because it's literally the 'elite' level of it's sport being women's football.

And yes, I'm satisfied that women now get to have footy as an option for a career, I'm sorry that you feel the need to try and shoot that down.

I've never met you, nor I, so I'm not sure what you're assuming with your attempt at a personal comment at the end there.

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

It's an 'elite' competition because it's literally the 'elite' level of it's sport being women's football.

And yes, I'm satisfied that women now get to have footy as an option for a career, I'm sorry that you feel the need to try and shoot that down.

I've never met you, nor I, so I'm not sure what you're assuming with your attempt at a personal comment at the end there.

I have no problem with Women playing  Footy at all, so don’t change the subject. The level of Football being played right now has a long way to go, as expected. You cannot just add water and shake and expect it to be any better, as the AFL have done. It is not ready to promoted as an “elite” sport YET. 
But by making observations like that, i am labelled racist  and anti, by people like you. 
Good things take time. 
The AFL are always in a hurry 

[Mel Bourne 3,594]

26 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

It's the elite level of women's footy. Your argument is baseless.

No one is asking you to watch it, nor are they asking for your opinion on it.

I mean, to be fair, nobody usually asks for anybody’s opinion on anything around here. 

[Sir Why You Little 34,405]

4 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

I mean, to be fair, nobody usually asks for anybody’s opinion on anything around here. 

Yes every reply should be a blank square, marvellous idea

Wouldn’t want to offend anyone or have an alternative view....

[DeeSpencer 23,051]

3 hours ago, daisycutter said:

it's easy to argue both ways. binman, because in the end it's just opinion trying to predict the future and the best way to get there.

at the moment the big issue is money. the aflw women have already flagged it. at the moment the aflw comp is basically an amateur comp lasting 8 weeks (with any player payments lucky to cover player's overheads). there has to be a transition whereby the comp allows for a living wage by becoming fully professional. Only then can you truly get an elite game.

so far i have yet to see a business case as to where this money will come from. Money-wise aflw is just another franchise money pit to add to gcs and gws with no relief money-wise in sight.

but i'm sure gil has all the answers ?

I don't agree with this. In Ireland the amateur GAA is absolutely an elite game. The Olympics is an elite sporting event that features a number of athletes who aren't full time professionals. The difference between 20 hours of unpaid or lowly paid work a week and 40 hours of highly paid work a week is in the physical performance margins and development of lesser players. 

I fear the rush to create paid professionalism is putting the cart before the horse. It's not that I don't think there should be a pathway to professional female sports but I just don't think it's been done the right way. Women's cricket had a really strong base to turn professional. So did netball. Established elite competitions that just needed some money pumped in. Meanwhile womens footy has gone from Darebin being the only elite standard and a one off exhibition match to 14 teams, it's bonkers to me.

Instead of 14 teams playing 8 rounds it should be 8 teams playing 14 rounds. Each team would double in talented footballers capable of actually moving the ball with skills rather than the current set up of so many athletes who excel at running and tackling but lack the fundamental skills. AFLW right now is really harmed by each team having about 10 Alex Neal-Bullen types on the ground at once who's main job is to just run up and down and tackle.

If I was in charge of the AFL I'd be tempted to scrap the entire comp and bring in 8 new teams (1 per state, Tassie, Geel, 2 in Melbourne, with expansion of 4 Melbourne sides planned for year 3 or 4) with their own new brands and play a 14 round schedule from September to the first week of December - a far better time to watch and play footy - and keep the entire thing separate from the AFL as much as possible. Maybe the AFL commission still oversee the league but a new CEO, new TV deal and let the players even form their own union if they wish. The players would take a hit initially in terms of wages but they'd have a proper competition and the big name players are getting paid based on their brands now. If they sacrifice a little for a few years they might end up with a proper competition. 

It would be sad to see the Demons lose their team but I just can't see how 18 teams is pretty much ever going to work, especially at the start of the year when the overwhelming majority of fans lose interest when the men's stuff starts. Play it in spring and capture the sports fans who aren't interested in racing or non Boxing day/important tests/BBL cricket (which is a lot of people especially women).

[Mel Bourne 3,594]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Yes every reply should be a blank square, marvellous idea

Wouldn’t want to offend anyone or have an alternative view....

Nah, I was just making a silly joke. 

[dino rover 615]

21 hours ago, Every Game in '64 said:

Why pay them more - does anybody watch it?

If they do watch it, do they enjoy it as much as men's footy?

Pay them on a per view basis

it might lead to a lingerie league but if money’s the thing I wouldn’t complain