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@Diamond Jim @Pickett2Jackson noting both your posts on the footy thread. Thought best to continue the conversation here as relates to safety data on the Pfizer vaccine. The link below is to an FDA briefing document which notes the results from double blind control trials conducted on approx. 38,000 participants:

https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

Other than common reactions such as headache, fatigue, chills etc. a numerical imbalance was noted with respect to 4 instances of Bell’s Palsy which occurred in the vaccine group (none in the placebo group). Its statistically insignificant but more data is needed to determine whether this is a pattern or just an anomaly.

I have seen some news reports about allergic reactions and variable immune responses as well but can’t find any studies or papers on this. If you have an allergy best to discuss with your GP and be prepared in case you have an adverse reaction:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55244122

More data is needed to determine whether the above are something to be concerned about or not. But that’s the real issue at the moment. The typical larger and longer-term studies are just not possible because of the speed of development. We have no idea if there are longer term issues with the vaccine which may emerge over time.

All vaccines carry a risk and it’s a question of weighing up the risk with the benefit. Personally, I want to see some more data before I commit to taking the vaccine. I’m not in a risk category and I don’t have to travel overseas so I don’t need to take it. The equation would be different if I was in a risk category. 

If anyone has any links to research papers studies on any of the vaccines then please share. 

Edited by Better days ahead
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I said it would be a whitewash and it is, what a joke.

No one was responsible, no credibility on either side of the fence here.

All the Coate report tells us is what we already knew and there is no accountability from the top down.

I'm accountable, I'm a leader of the state … but that cutting and running thing, that's not accountability, that’s cowardice and you won't get that from me."

What a joke, that's not cutting and running, resigning is the honourable thing to do, but look at who we are dealing with.

 

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On 10/30/2020 at 7:14 PM, mauriesy said:

Jennifer Coate is a person of the very highest integrity. Casting aspersions on her as the head of a "sham" enquiry is pathetic and unwarranted.

SHAM and WHITE WASH

No one at fault, who would have thought that.🤨 

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Yes, I tend to be a Labor voter, but the hotel quarantine was obviously poorly handled.

 

At least the relevant minister has resigned - unlike her Federal counterpart, who was responsible for infection control in the area where 80% of the deaths occurred.  Enquiry report released today:

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-21/victoria-coronavirus-aged-care-report-contains-damning-findings/12996532

 

Makes grim reading - staff unqualified, often couldn't even speak English, minimal infection control, etc.. - all because Federal government handed the system over to the profiteers.

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1 hour ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 The fact Daniel Andrews is still premier of Victoria tells you all you need to know about that sham of a state government.

Coates is a fraud.   The swamp protecting the swamp.

You obviously prefer the Lib/National concept of pretence that Ruby Princess and the latest NSW outbreaks are just, well, what are you worried about, don't wear masks, let's just pretend all is A okay? The Morrison way, we'll impose sanctions after the following weekend so that my church's mass gathering can go forth and multiply.

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4 hours ago, Dante said:

SHAM and WHITE WASH

No one at fault, who would have thought that.🤨 

Just one further point - O'Brien calling for Royal Commission into Hotel Quarantine - you'll never see him calling for a Commission into Victoria's overall response to the pandemic, of course, because he knows who was responsible for infection control in the aged care system.

Notice the timing of Morrison's review into aged care - same day as the Coate's report. What a coincidence.

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1 hour ago, Jara said:

Just one further point - O'Brien calling for Royal Commission into Hotel Quarantine - you'll never see him calling for a Commission into Victoria's overall response to the pandemic, of course, because he knows who was responsible for infection control in the aged care system.

Notice the timing of Morrison's review into aged care - same day as the Coate's report. What a coincidence.

 

Probably all in on it and got the AFL to release the fixture today to take the attention away.

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1 hour ago, Jara said:

Just one further point - O'Brien calling for Royal Commission into Hotel Quarantine - you'll never see him calling for a Commission into Victoria's overall response to the pandemic, of course, because he knows who was responsible for infection control in the aged care system.

Notice the timing of Morrison's review into aged care - same day as the Coate's report. What a coincidence.

You still don't get it do you.

The virus got in to the community and subsequently the aged care facilities because of the failings of the Andrews State Government, if they hadn't failed in the running of the Hotel Quarantine, none off this would have happened.

You can try as hard as you like to blame someone else, but it's quite clear that this is on Andrews. But don't worry, he won't resign, he's promised it won't happen again.

It's like some of you people think this is a football match where you barrack for a side and no matter how [censored] they play or how many mistakes they make you forgive them. 

Nearly 800 people died because of this stuff up by the Andrews Government, this is not a 10 goal loss in a footy match. He set the terms of reference and all Coate could come up with was what we already knew, and after all this time she couldn't come with a simple answer, who was at fault and who decided to employ the private security. 

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1 hour ago, dieter said:

You obviously prefer the Lib/National concept of pretence that Ruby Princess and the latest NSW outbreaks are just, well, what are you worried about, don't wear masks, let's just pretend all is A okay? The Morrison way, we'll impose sanctions after the following weekend so that my church's mass gathering can go forth and multiply.

Daniel Andrews is the worst politician in the history of this country.

 

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4 hours ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 The fact Daniel Andrews is still premier of Victoria tells you all you need to know about that sham of a state government.

Coates is a fraud.   The swamp protecting the swamp.

Where’s all of the outrage over the fact that air crew from international flights, many coming out of COVID hotspots, do not have to go into secured hotel quarantine, which has led to this latest outbreak? Just who’s responsible for that piece of insanity?

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11 hours ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 

Daniel Andrews is the worst politician in the history of this country.

 

I'd say he is the best politician in the country as nothing sticks and as cunning as a s**thouse rat. He's coated in Teflon.

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10 hours ago, hardtack said:

Where’s all of the outrage over the fact that air crew from international flights, many coming out of COVID hotspots, do not have to go into secured hotel quarantine, which has led to this latest outbreak? Just who’s responsible for that piece of insanity?

When it comes to the managing of the COVID-19 pandemic in Australia, there is plenty of blame to go around. But don’t look to the federal government to accept its fair share.

The Sydney Northern Beaches outbreak has shattered the poster girl image of Liberal premier Gladys Berejiklian that her Canberra counterparts have spent most of the year telling us was the “gold standard” among the states.

To be fair to the New South Wales Premier, it wasn’t until Monday that she backed herself in such a way.

“We do have, I believe, one of the best if not the best contact tracing team on the planet,” Ms Berejiklian said.

At the height of the federal pile on of Victoria’s Labor premier Daniel Andrews, she cautioned that “touch wood” her state would not face a similar predicament.

Perhaps she was haunted by the failure of her state health authorities – with no help from Border Force as customs is now called – to stop the virus marching straight down the gang plank of the Ruby Princess cruise ship and across the nation.

ruby princess inquiry records The Ruby Princess, in Sydney in March, may still haunt Gladys Berejiklian.

Just ask the Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein how devastating that was for his state.

But that brings us to the coal face of border control or, more precisely, the constitutional responsibility to keep the nation safe from contagion.

Look no further than the federal Quarantine Act of 1908 (replaced by Biosecurity Act 2015), enacted seven years after Federation and applied 10 years later when the “Spanish Flu” epidemic hit.

The Commonwealth then set up quarantine stations in every state and back in February, the Morrison government followed the example by organising for Australians returning from COVID-19 central in Wuhan, China to be quarantined on Christmas Island or in the Northern Territory.

20080813000112016400-original.jpg The 1918 Spanish flu pandemic killed at least 20 million people worldwide. Photo: AAP

Early in the pandemic at the first meeting of Scott Morrison’s national cabinet ­– the rolling summit of the state and territory leaders – according to a source close to the meeting, the states were shocked when the Prime Minister came to the meeting with no quarantine plan.

I am told that’s when Mr Andrews, with the support of the other state and territory leaders, agreed to set up and pay for hotel quarantine.

This let the Commonwealth off the hook, not that you would know it with the PM regularly touting his generous offer of the Australian Defence Force to assist with policing the arrangement.

national-coronavirus-cabinet.jpg Phil Gaetjens, PM Scott Morrison and Professor Brendan Murphy speak to NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian.

What we now know is the hotel quarantine system is flawed, but it played a big role exposing Victoria’s inadequate contact tracing and the Commonwealth’s “neglect” of aged care.

It allowed Mr Morrison and his ministers, principally Treasurer Josh Frydenberg, point the finger at Labor-governed Victoria for the disastrous second wave that led to a prolonged shutdown of the nation’s second biggest state.

It also saw the Prime Minister attempting to hide from the Commonwealth’s responsibility for 600 deaths in federally funded and regulated nursing homes.

Neither the PM nor his senior ministers have rushed to point the finger at the Berejiklian Liberal-led government for the holes in the quarantine arrangements for international air crews.

Epidemiologists wrote to the Prime Minister and premiers back in December 2019 pointing out the risks.

NSW has borne the lion’s share of international travellers returning to Australia: 88,949 since March compared to Victoria’s 21,508, Queensland’s 29,845 and Western Australia’s 22,751.

But the Berejiklian government, without demur from the Commonwealth, buckled to pressure from airlines to exempt international air crews from strict quarantine.

These are the people flying around the world’s hotspots and left unchecked to leave their hotels to shop or eat or whatever. They are a most likely source of the infection entering the Australian community.

Ms Berejiklian lamely claims there is nothing wrong with the guidelines but with “the few occasions when people have broken them by not self-isolating”.

Someone needs to acquaint the premier with the reality of a “super spreader”.

1608280494-GettyImages-1230185475-e16082 NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian has been forced to defend her state’s guidelines for air crews.

Mr Morrison is more than happy to leave it to the states to apply their health acts to contain the virus – it gives him gold-standard scapegoats and masks his own dereliction of constitutional duty.

In a recorded video from The Lodge at the weekend, the Prime Minister had breezy reassurances for the nation and heaped fulsome praise on Ms Berejiklian and the states for the roles they are playing.

On Monday the Prime Minister held a formal news conference in his  Parliament House Courtyard, but there was no new announcement revisiting quarantine exemptions for air crew, returning diplomats or VIPs.

Clearly he is counting on nobody noticing what he is not doing.

Paul Bongiorno AM is a veteran of the Canberra Press Gallery, with 40 years’ experience covering Australian politics

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12 hours ago, Dante said:

You still don't get it do you.

The virus got in to the community and subsequently the aged care facilities because of the failings of the Andrews State Government, if they hadn't failed in the running of the Hotel Quarantine, none off this would have happened.

You can try as hard as you like to blame someone else, but it's quite clear that this is on Andrews. But don't worry, he won't resign, he's promised it won't happen again.

It's like some of you people think this is a football match where you barrack for a side and no matter how [censored] they play or how many mistakes they make you forgive them. 

Nearly 800 people died because of this stuff up by the Andrews Government, this is not a 10 goal loss in a footy match. He set the terms of reference and all Coate could come up with was what we already knew, and after all this time she couldn't come with a simple answer, who was at fault and who decided to employ the private security. 

Yes, I get it perfectly. The Andrews government set up the hotel quarantine system and did it poorly. The responsible minister resigned. I also think Pakula should resign.

What you seem completely incapable of understanding is that 80% of the deaths occurred in places for which Morrison was responsible for infection control. He failed this task miserably, putting the profits of the owners above the health of the residents. He bears much of the responsibility for the deaths. He understands this, even if you don't, which is why he won't call a Royal Commission into the overall pandemic. 

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1 hour ago, Jara said:

Yes, I get it perfectly. The Andrews government set up the hotel quarantine system and did it poorly. The responsible minister resigned. I also think Pakula should resign.

What you seem completely incapable of understanding is that 80% of the deaths occurred in places for which Morrison was responsible for infection control. He failed this task miserably, putting the profits of the owners above the health of the residents. He bears much of the responsibility for the deaths. He understands this, even if you don't, which is why he won't call a Royal Commission into the overall pandemic. 

If you can convince me that Morrison allowed the Virus to escape in to the community, I will agree with you but you can't, can you.

They've had a Commission in to Aged Care Facilities, which was done by Morrison, all of the recommendations were or are being addressed.

As I said, you still don't get it.

You are just desperate to blame Morrison and it isn't working.

Edited by Dante
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I wouldn't try to persuade you that Morrison allowed it to escape into the community - he obviously didn't (although, interestingly, as the article Dieter just posted says, ultimate responsibility for quarantine control is a Federal responsibility - the States had to take it over in a hurry when they realized Morrison had done nothing about it, as is his wont - maybe Dutton should resign?) 

All I'm saying is that Morrison had responsibility for infection control in the aged care sector and that he failed that responsibility miserably.

Sure, there was an existing Royal Commission which touched upon the matter near the end of its tenure. You say 'their recommendations are being addressed' - great, maybe they are now (although I doubt it), but they weren't when the virus hit, which was precisely why 80% of the deaths occurred there.

Read the report I posted yesterday - months into the outbreak, it was still chaos in the aged care homes, - no infection controls, pathetic training, no RNs, staff who couldn't speak English. And the relevant Minister? Wouldn't say boo to a goose. Morrison's contribution? Send in the goons and yell at Andrews to 'end the lockdown'. 

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19 hours ago, Dante said:

SHAM and WHITE WASH

No one at fault, who would have thought that.🤨 

Sham and a whitewash? Have you even bothered to read it?

The Age called the report "brutal". The Herald Sun said the report "slammed the failure of leadership" . The Australian said it was "scathing".

It's done Andrews no favours. And it didn't say no one was at fault. It said no one could be identified as responsible for the quarantine decisions. No one has take ownership.

That is actually more damning than if one or two people could be identified. It illustrates a total breakdown of management and decision-making, and the exceptionally poor organisation and structure of the DHHS, and an absolute failure at all levels of government (State and Federal) to plan for a pandemic. The fact that they had 36 hours to set up a rushed system, with such poor organisation and chain of command in an overly bureaucratic department,  perfectly illustrates that failure to plan was planning to fail.

Here's what Coate said about pandemic planning in Australia:

  • None of the existing Commonwealth or State pandemic plans contained plans for mandatory, mass quarantine and the Commonwealth had neither recommended nor developed such a plan.
  • No work was done on a quarantine and isolation policy after a Commonwealth review in 2011.
  • Victoria’s March 10 COVID-19 Pandemic Plan did not envisage the involuntary detention of people arriving from overseas.
  • The lack of a plan meant hotel quarantine was conceived and implemented ‘from scratch’, to be operational within 36 hours.

Australia (both Commonwealth and States) has spent huge resources and time planning for the "standard" emergency and disaster events like bushfires, floods and cyclones. They have spent more time historicially on planning for agricultural threats like Swine Flu and Foot and Mouth Disease than they did for a human pandemic.

Meanwhile the Opposition Leader for Calling Royal Commissions and Total Indignation,  Michael O'Brien, is pathetic as usual. Heaven help us if he'd been Premier. No wonder Andrews has kept his lead despite everything the Liberals say.

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45 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

It's done Andrews no favours.

 Last I checked he was still premier.  Should have been the first one gone.

In fact he should have been removed when he signed the Belt and Road agreement with China.  If he had been removed then, Victoria would not have been shut down all year and thousands of people would still be alive.

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2 hours ago, Dante said:

If you can convince me that Morrison allowed the Virus to escape in to the community, I will agree with you but you can't, can you.

They've had a Commission in to Aged Care Facilities, which was done by Morrison, all of the recommendations were or are being addressed.

As I said, you still don't get it.

You are just desperate to blame Morrison and it isn't working.

The virus escaped into the community mainly via the Ruby Princess Fiasco - for which neither Morrison, Dutton nor Berejiklian have accepted one cent's worth of responsibility. Neither has the Aged Care Minister, though his Department is responsible for Aged Care.  Read the article written by Bongiorno above to get some idea of the slippery slope of irresponsibility that Morrison and Co have taken. How dare you just point the finger at Andrews!!!!

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1 hour ago, mauriesy said:

Sham and a whitewash? Have you even bothered to read it?

The Age called the report "brutal". The Herald Sun said the report "slammed the failure of leadership" . The Australian said it was "scathing".

It's done Andrews no favours. And it didn't say no one was at fault. It said no one could be identified as responsible for the quarantine decisions. No one has take ownership.

That is actually more damning than if one or two people could be identified. It illustrates a total breakdown of management and decision-making, and the exceptionally poor organisation and structure of the DHHS, and an absolute failure at all levels of government (State and Federal) to plan for a pandemic. The fact that they had 36 hours to set up a rushed system, with such poor organisation and chain of command in an overly bureaucratic department,  perfectly illustrates that failure to plan was planning to fail.

Here's what Coate said about pandemic planning in Australia:

  • None of the existing Commonwealth or State pandemic plans contained plans for mandatory, mass quarantine and the Commonwealth had neither recommended nor developed such a plan.
  • No work was done on a quarantine and isolation policy after a Commonwealth review in 2011.
  • Victoria’s March 10 COVID-19 Pandemic Plan did not envisage the involuntary detention of people arriving from overseas.
  • The lack of a plan meant hotel quarantine was conceived and implemented ‘from scratch’, to be operational within 36 hours.

Australia (both Commonwealth and States) has spent huge resources and time planning for the "standard" emergency and disaster events like bushfires, floods and cyclones. They have spent more time historicially on planning for agricultural threats like Swine Flu and Foot and Mouth Disease than they did for a human pandemic.

Meanwhile the Opposition Leader for Calling Royal Commissions and Total Indignation,  Michael O'Brien, is pathetic as usual. Heaven help us if he'd been Premier. No wonder Andrews has kept his lead despite everything the Liberals say.

You could have stopped there.

That was the purpose of the inquiry, to find out who was at fault and it didn't do that, all it did was tell us what most of us already knew.

Apart from Mikakos and Peake, all the clowns that stuffed it up in the first place are still there.

Strange that two women were the sacrificial lambs and the Premier got on with all the press except a few female journalists.

How can Pakula and Phemister still have a job, how can the leader of the party still have a job.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dante said:

That was the purpose of the inquiry, to find out who was at fault

No it wasn't. You should read the report instead of the SkyNews summary.

If you had, instead of just shooting from the lip, you'd discover her brief was to:

You are required to inquire into, report and make any recommendations considered appropriate in relation to the following terms of reference:

  1. The decisions and actions of Victorian government agencies, hotel operators and Private Service Providers, including their staff/contractors and any other relevant personnel involved in the Quarantine Program (each Relevant Personnel), relating to COVID-19 Quarantine Containment
  2. Communications between Victorian government agencies, hotel operators and Private Service Providers relating to COVID-19 Quarantine Containment
  3. The contractual arrangements in place across Victorian government agencies, hotel operators and Private Service Providers to the extent they relate to COVID-19 Quarantine Containment
  4. The information, guidance, training and equipment provided to Relevant Personnel for COVID-19 Quarantine Containment and whether such guidance or training was followed, and such equipment was properly used
  5. The policies, protocols and procedures applied by Relevant Personnel for COVID-19 Quarantine Containment
  6. Any other matters necessary to satisfactorily resolve the matters set out in paragraphs 1 to 5.
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