Barassi vs Dean

[Every Game in '64 25]

Never got to the bottom of this one : did Barass in fact clock Roger Dean in 1963 or did he fake it as he was always known to stage for frees?

Is there a final decision on this, anyone now what really happened here?

[Every Game in '64 25]

Dean was known to stage for frees on a regular basis.

Barassi out cost us the flag that year, no doubt.

It was just before the finals and he got 4 weeks for striking.

[bush demon 1,875]

That was my earliest childhood memory watching this on WOS. Dean went down like a bag of spuds. Melbourne rampaged through home and aways second half of season then struggled in finals without Barassi. Same thing also happened to Ditterich in 66 and Neville Crowe in 67. 

[hemingway 7,583]

Definitely a stage by Dean. Both players were on the ground. The incident took place near the centre at Punt Road. Despite the Demons having a great season, the Tigers were throwing everything at Melbourne players by fair means and foul. Roger the Dodger was in everything on a slow muddy surface.  He did not play by The Marquess of Queensberry rules. 

From memory, it was the 3rd quarter. Dean was holding the ball onto his chest and Barass had him wrapped up and was trying to punch the ball away. The game was tight and the great man was vigorous in his attack on Dean and the ball. There is no doubt that he was trying to punch the ball away out of Deans grasp rather than punch Dean although that would have been justified. Dean made the most of it and fell back holding his head. And the ump immediately took Rons number. 

The thing that outraged Demon supporters was that everyone knew how tough Ron was but everyone also knew that he was not a dirty player. His physicality was like no other but he did not swing punches.  Tough but fair. 

The reaction of Demon supporters was one of dismay. It looked bad and with the finals ahead everyone realised the significance and threat posed by the report. It took over the news headlines all week as the Demons were red hot flag favourites. The TV replay supported the assertion that RDB was trying to punch the ball away but in doing so his fist made contact with Dean. 

Ron’s suspension was a massive blow to Norm and the team. The team lost its Warrior Leader and lost its morale. The Demons were not the same without Barassi. 

From memory Deans evidence to the tribunal did not help Ron. 

Possible it cost us the flag. It definitely slipped away. 

[monoccular 15,989]

I may be wrong but I feel that I have read somewhere that Dean Many years later admitted to staging.

It was devastating  for a teenage fan to see my hero suspended on finals eve in these circumstances.   As I recall it was replayed on TV but the tribunal refused to (or wasn’t permitted to) view pictorial or video evidence and believed the umpire.  

These days it would be thrown out without a tribunal hearing. 
 

And yes, it did cost us another tilt at the flag. 

[Deemania since 56 6,119]

13 hours ago, hemingway said:

Definitely a stage by Dean. Both players were on the ground. The incident took place near the centre at Punt Road. Despite the Demons having a great season, the Tigers were throwing everything at Melbourne players by fair means and foul. Roger the Dodger was in everything on a slow muddy surface.  He did not play by The Marquess of Queensberry rules. 

From memory, it was the 3rd quarter. Dean was holding the ball onto his chest and Barass had him wrapped up and was trying to punch the ball away. The game was tight and the great man was vigorous in his attack on Dean and the ball. There is no doubt that he was trying to punch the ball away out of Deans grasp rather than punch Dean although that would have been justified. Dean made the most of it and fell back holding his head. And the ump immediately took Rons number. 

The thing that outraged Demon supporters was that everyone knew how tough Ron was but everyone also knew that he was not a dirty player. His physicality was like no other but he did not swing punches.  Tough but fair. 

The reaction of Demon supporters was one of dismay. It looked bad and with the finals ahead everyone realised the significance and threat posed by the report. It took over the news headlines all week as the Demons were red hot flag favourites. The TV replay supported the assertion that RDB was trying to punch the ball away but in doing so his fist made contact with Dean. 

Ron’s suspension was a massive blow to Norm and the team. The team lost its Warrior Leader and lost its morale. The Demons were not the same without Barassi. 

From memory Deans evidence to the tribunal did not help Ron. 

Possible it cost us the flag. It definitely slipped away. 

Great analytical recall, hemingway. That's just how I saw it, too, and you have jogged my memory. It was one of those classic stages in which Dean faked contact above the shoulders when the early punching of the ball away from Dean's grasp was underway. Barassi gave no quarter and maintained his 'regulation' attempts at the ball and the man in possession of it. Barassi knew he had not broken any rule with regard to unnecessary forceful contact or dangerous contact; hence, Barassi continued the legal barrage for the ball whilst also preventing Dean from making better use of his ball possession and its despatch. The only danger in the incident was for Dean to lose possession of the ball, and the umpires and Tribunal fell for it -- to the MFC disadvantage, such was the trepidation related to determined efforts produced by the whole Demon team, of which Ronald Dale was the epitome. In those days, the umpires were the white snot goblins - except for Crouch. 

[hemingway 7,583]

3 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Great analytical recall, hemingway. That's just how I saw it, too, and you have jogged my memory. It was one of those classic stages in which Dean faked contact above the shoulders when the early punching of the ball away from Dean's grasp was underway. Barassi gave no quarter and maintained his 'regulation' attempts at the ball and the man in possession of it. Barassi knew he had not broken any rule with regard to unnecessary forceful contact or dangerous contact; hence, Barassi continued the legal barrage for the ball whilst also preventing Dean from making better use of his ball possession and its despatch. The only danger in the incident was for Dean to lose possession of the ball, and the umpires and Tribunal fell for it -- to the MFC disadvantage, such was the trepidation related to determined efforts produced by the whole Demon team, of which Ronald Dale was the epitome. In those days, the umpires were the white snot goblins - except for Crouch. 

Great analysis. Watched that game from behind the goals at Brunton Road end.  The umps were terrible weren’t they, as you say apart from Crouch. Schwab one of the worst. 

[maximum bob 462]

Tough and reliable player Roger Dean. I remember him mostly as a nuggety back pocket. I was at the game. He faked Barassi's contact big time. The irony is these days he would be suspended for staging.

[dieter 3,325]

6 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

Tough and reliable player Roger Dean. I remember him mostly as a nuggety back pocket. I was at the game. He faked Barassi's contact big time. The irony is these days he would be suspended for staging.

I thought he was a half forward flanker...

[maximum bob 462]

You need to learn some history dieter. Take your time and don't shoot from the hip. Try AFL archives or Wikepedia for starters. Why post this reply without any knowledge?

 

 

[Deeoldfart 7,709]

This is the beginning of a rhyme I wrote as a young schoolboy, many more than 50 years ago:

"Umpire Gaudion is no good, 

His head is 98% wood;

What happened to the other 2%?

Well I'm telling you now, it's made of cement!

He reported my idol Ron,

For striking R. Dean upon the scone,

Well give me time, and I'll prove beyond doubt,

They were only having a friendly bout."

...............

My very poor and childish attempt at poetry goes on for many verses beyond that, but I won't bore Demonlanders with those.  Having said that, it does sum up my feelings at the time, and these feelings haven't changed one iota since I started wearing long pants, and taking a second look at the opposite sex.

I know one or two current Demonlanders, some now living on the other side of the globe, who could vouch for that!

[Macca 16,173]

2 hours ago, dieter said:

I thought he was a half forward flanker...

I know a few older Tiger fans diets and they reckon that Dean was moved to the half forward flank to act as a 'Minder' for Royce Hart.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Macca

[Demons3031 361]

2 hours ago, maximum bob said:

You need to learn some history dieter. Take your time and don't shoot from the hip. Try AFL archives or Wikepedia for starters. Why post this reply without any knowledge?

 

 

Roger Dean  Back pocket and HFF - Wikipedia.

 

1957–73, 175cm 73k,
245 games 204 goals

Some other interesting information from Peter Lalor's Barassi biography:-

 Barassi's advocate was Mr Gaudion, the father of the umpire who laid the report!

Barassi claim's he hit him  on the chest near the throat as he was trying to knock the ball off his chest and that Roger Dean exaggerated  it. He was "flabbergasted" to be reported. Melbourne attempted to submit TV footage but is it was not allowed then - the rule was changed after that.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Demons3031
additional information

[Go the Biff 3,124]

3 hours ago, maximum bob said:

You need to learn some history dieter. Take your time and don't shoot from the hip. Try AFL archives or Wikepedia for starters. Why post this reply without any knowledge?

 

 

If your post is correct then 204 goals is a fair effort from the back pocket

[Demons3031 361]

3 hours ago, maximum bob said:

 

 

 

 

  He  played his early years on the forward line then mid career in the back pocket. He then relinquished the back pocket to Kevin Sheedy and went back to the forward line again later in his career. He is chosen on the half forward flank in Richmond's team of the century.Roger Dean  Back pocket and HFF - Wikipedia

1957–73, 175cm 73k,
245 games 204 goals

Edited October 26, 2019 by Demons3031

[doc roet 1,198]

We need a Barrasi now. A captain courageous.Someone to tear shreds off others that others that don't give 110%.

Someone to drive pride in the club there playing for. Where he got his guts from.

Your a footballer first,you are part of a team, you don't let your mates down,you give it all you've got and then some more.

But I know now that wouldn't cut it with today's generation. Times have changed.

Ah I miss the old times when things were simple.

 

[FireInTheBennelly 4,022]

4 hours ago, dieter said:

I thought he was a half forward flanker...

 

3 hours ago, Deeoldfart said:

This is the beginning of a rhyme I wrote as a young schoolboy, many more than 50 years ago:

"Umpire Gaudion is no good, 

His head is 98% wood;

What happened to the other 2%?

Well I'm telling you now, it's made of cement!

He reported my idol Ron,

For striking R. Dean upon the scone,

Well give me time, and I'll prove beyond doubt,

They were only having a friendly bout."

...............

My very poor and childish attempt at poetry goes on for many verses beyond that, but I won't bore Demonlanders with those.  Having said that, it does sum up my feelings at the time, and these feelings haven't changed one iota since I started wearing long pants, and taking a second look at the opposite sex.

I know one or two current Demonlanders, some now living on the other side of the globe, who could vouch for that!

Perhaps you could weave some of your magic with Dieters line above....

[pineapple dee 2,892]

4 hours ago, dieter said:

I thought he was a half forward flanker...

is that like a ' business banker ' ????

[dieter 3,325]

15 hours ago, maximum bob said:

You need to learn some history dieter. Take your time and don't shoot from the hip. Try AFL archives or Wikepedia for starters. Why post this reply without any knowledge?

 

 

Let he among you who is free of historical sin cast the first stone...

[special robert 438]

yep I was there with my dad a Richmond supporter. He was trying to get me to barrack for the toiges. In the early 60's the Toiges were a basket case. I would regularly rack off from the Punt Rd game and dash across the grass to the huge noise coming out of the mighty G to watch the all mighty Dees and then turn up back at Punt rd at the end of the game. By 1963 it was all over, the Dees were the power team of the comp and Dad had given up trying to convert me and I had my first Dees membership card in my pocket.I have it framed with my 1964 membership card and all the 64 finals tickets.

Yeah Dean staged it, Mother Dean, that what dad used to call him, don't know why.

 

[Deemania since 56 6,119]

15 hours ago, Demons3031 said:

  He  played his early years on the forward line then mid career in the back pocket. He then relinquished the back pocket to Kevin Sheedy and went back to the forward line again later in his career. He is chosen on the half forward flank in Richmond's team of the century.Roger Dean  Back pocket and HFF - Wikipedia

1957–73, 175cm 73k,
245 games 204 goals

Dean was largely all over the ground; manned positions for a small bloke - sometimes but generally, and often, utilised as a temporary, mid-game utility to roam to the backline and well into the forward line, protecting packs and players, and taking advantage of possession opportunities. Many flankers from nearly all teams - in those days - took a roving/roaming utility role that did not demand too much of them for recovery and rebound, so they 'zoned' near appointed positions and opponents. Some had more martial duties at times, as most were fairly tough with an ounce of mongrel, and thus used as roaming hit-men if it was necessary under the circumstances at any given time. 

[bush demon 1,875]

On 10/26/2019 at 12:56 PM, monoccular said:

I may be wrong but I feel that I have read somewhere that Dean Many years later admitted to staging.

It was devastating  for a teenage fan to see my hero suspended on finals eve in these circumstances.   As I recall it was replayed on TV but the tribunal refused to (or wasn’t permitted to) view pictorial or video evidence and believed the umpire.  

These days it would be thrown out without a tribunal hearing. 
 

And yes, it did cost us another tilt at the flag. 

I think Dean refers to the incident in The Red and Blue video, was still adamant that Ron hit him.

[Demons3031 361]

Hi Bush Demon..yes I had heard  that too. Barassi never denies contact..but is adamnant that he was trying to punch the ball out of Dean's arms and made incidental contact with his chest near his throat..if there was any contact with the face or head Ron never felt it and was sure it never happened. Not having been there, I'm guessing ... but based on all that if it there was facial contact, and it was  not a fist as Barassi says, who knows.... it might only have been an incidental brush with his arm as his fist was punching the ball and chest. ..certainly not a direct fist or punch to the head.     Gaudion claimed Dean fell forward..the film the Demons wanted to introduce in evidence showed him falling backwards..but they were not allowed to use it as evidence..if it hadbeen, he wuld have been cleared according to most observers.

When asked at the tribunal by Barassi's advocate if he was known for "staging", Dean replied "no more than other players"..  Barassi says (in Lalor's biography) if he wanted to punch him he easily could have done that with a straight punch but that he never did. He was "Flabbergasted" he was reported. According to Lalor,  Norm Smith had to send the runner out 3 times to get  Barassi off. He was so angry at the report but with the roar of the crowd it  was hard to hear the runner. (I would not like to have been the runner on that occasion!)

Despite his anger on the ground at the time, Barassi didn't publicly slam Gaudion- instead just saying he made a mistake.- thats the character of the man.  A very sad event that caused a lot of anguish for a great man.  P>S There was a post on this in 2014 by Whispering Jack in a post called Fifty Years On.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Demons3031
new information