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Todd Viney Leaving Confirmed

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Starting to look like those who said there was more wrong at the Club than pre season injuries might have had a point.

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29 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

These are our senior players that had uninterrupted preseasons and a good run with few injuries during the season:  Gawn, Fritsch, Salem, Frost, Lewis (?), Spargo, Hunt and ANB.  That's it. 

These players either had significantly interrupted preseasons or injury interrupted seasons: May, Jones, Harmes, Petracca, Viney, Lever, Brayshaw, KK, Hibberd, Stretch, Melksham, Hannan, AVB, JKH, TMac, Weid, OMac, Hore and Jetta.

We made, against all expectations, the PF playing fantastic footy coached and managed by the group of FD staff that is now undergoing significant change.  My very strong view is that most of our issues this year were bourne out of our PS and injury status,  the names above show that.  The major change we will have next year is a fit list and a good preseason.  If we have that we can match it with anyone.

Our issues this year were not those in the FD who had proved their abilities with a reasonably fit list in the previous year. I think change is good for the club, new voices and different views,  but I suspect much of that change would have happened anyway. 

Thanks to all those that stuck by us when we were awful and helped form a serious club = Macca, Misso, Craig, Todd, Jade and others I may have missed.

While we got to finals last year, with a fitter list and playing chaos footy, the new rules changed things and we were exposed. 

IMO, as the rules now stand, 6-6-6, with no outside pace or small goal kicking forwards, we will improve with a fitter list, but cannot improve to win enough games to make finals. That is why we are chasing the likes of Langdon and others to fix these deficiencies on the list. Also, again IMO, the game style of last year will not succeed now and needs tinkering with, not wholesale changes. That could be why we are changing Assistant Coaches, who can bring in a slightly different approach to the way we play.

So IMO the 3 things needed to succeed for us are:

. A strong pre season, with a good injury run during the season.

. A modified game plan, not totally reliant on contested possession, but incorporating improved, uncontested possession.

. Some better players with pace and skill and a few small, goal kicking, pressure forwards.

A softer draw will also help if we get the above in place.

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13 minutes ago, Redleg said:

While we got to finals last year, with a fitter list and playing chaos footy, the new rules changed things and we were exposed. 

IMO, as the rules now stand, 6-6-6, with no outside pace or small goal kicking forwards, we will improve with a fitter list, but cannot improve to win enough games to make finals. That is why we are chasing the likes of Langdon and others to fix these deficiencies on the list. Also, again IMO, the game style of last year will not succeed now and needs tinkering with, not wholesale changes. That could be why we are changing Assistant Coaches, who can bring in a slightly different approach to the way we play.

So IMO the 3 things needed to succeed for us are:

. A strong pre season, with a good injury run during the season.

. A modified game plan, not totally reliant on contested possession, but incorporating improved, uncontested possession.

. Some better players with pace and skill and a few small, goal kicking, pressure forwards.

A softer draw will also help if we get the above in place.

Agree with most of the above.

Personally i don't think the 666 rules had much impact at all - to us or the league as a whole

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10 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree with most of the above.

Personally i don't think the 666 rules had much impact at all - to us or the league as a whole

 

I think it led to us changing our approach when there was maybe not much need.

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31 minutes ago, Redleg said:

While we got to finals last year, with a fitter list and playing chaos footy, the new rules changed things and we were exposed. 

IMO, as the rules now stand, 6-6-6, with no outside pace or small goal kicking forwards, we will improve with a fitter list, but cannot improve to win enough games to make finals. That is why we are chasing the likes of Langdon and others to fix these deficiencies on the list. Also, again IMO, the game style of last year will not succeed now and needs tinkering with, not wholesale changes. That could be why we are changing Assistant Coaches, who can bring in a slightly different approach to the way we play.

So IMO the 3 things needed to succeed for us are:

. A strong pre season, with a good injury run during the season.

. A modified game plan, not totally reliant on contested possession, but incorporating improved, uncontested possession.

. Some better players with pace and skill and a few small, goal kicking, pressure forwards.

A softer draw will also help if we get the above in place.

The significant rule changes only ended up being 6-6-6 which matters for about 15 seconds after a centre clearance. A very small factor. It shouldn't have mattered at all but Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney couldn't defend a centre stoppage to save themselves so it did mean cascading changes to the midfield.

The bigger factors were teams just took a big step forward adding pace back in to the midfield - something Richmond started in 2017, diffusing forward pressure by controlling the ball with a patient kicking game (very West Coast and Coll 2018, Geel/Bris 2019) and smarter forward tactics - the big switch across half forward that takes our all our zoning players (West Coast killed us in the prelim last year with this one) and/or kicking to one tall and structuring around the jumper (Geelong killed the whole comp with this for 10 weeks this year).

Our A game fell apart and whilst the criticism of our coaches for not having a plan B is fair I don't think there's a team in the comp that wins a lot of games playing with a plan B. Maybe Port Adelaide who seems to cycle through plans B, C, D, E, F until they don't have a plan A anymore. 

Maybe our coaches didn't see the writing on the wall with the need for quicker mids, patient defensive ball use and smarter forward 50 entries. Although maybe our coaches did know what was required and Vanders - inside mid speed tackling machine, Steve May - strong mark and ball using defender, KK - outside mid run and class never got out on the park.

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2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The significant rule changes only ended up being 6-6-6 which matters for about 15 seconds after a centre clearance. A very small factor. It shouldn't have mattered at all but Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney couldn't defend a centre stoppage to save themselves so it did mean cascading changes to the midfield.

The bigger factors were teams just took a big step forward adding pace back in to the midfield - something Richmond started in 2017, diffusing forward pressure by controlling the ball with a patient kicking game (very West Coast and Coll 2018, Geel/Bris 2019) and smarter forward tactics - the big switch across half forward that takes our all our zoning players (West Coast killed us in the prelim last year with this one) and/or kicking to one tall and structuring around the jumper (Geelong killed the whole comp with this for 10 weeks this year).

Our A game fell apart and whilst the criticism of our coaches for not having a plan B is fair I don't think there's a team in the comp that wins a lot of games playing with a plan B. Maybe Port Adelaide who seems to cycle through plans B, C, D, E, F until they don't have a plan A anymore. 

Maybe our coaches didn't see the writing on the wall with the need for quicker mids, patient defensive ball use and smarter forward 50 entries. Although maybe our coaches did know what was required and Vanders - inside mid speed tackling machine, Steve May - strong mark and ball using defender, KK - outside mid run and class never got out on the park.

Excellent summary DS.

The chip, hold, mark and spread style so in favor this year requires elite aerobic fitness and we simply were never fit enough this season.

A poster (I forget who - apologies) made an excellent point about the type of athlete needed for this game style ie 400 metre runners who can run at pace over 400 metres as opposed to the fast twitch power athletes, burst players we have so many of (which is in large part a failure of recruiting in my opinion - and not just a recent failure i might add, which is why i get annoyed with Roos distancing himself from where we are at).

You make an excellent point about KK and VDB. Both players are exactly the sort of athletes we have lacked, as is Hanan to a lesser extent and their absence has really hurt us. 

And based on May's recent comments in quite a revealing interview on SEN they were hoping he would also provide running cover (he is surprisingly quick over distance for such a big unit).

On the the chip, hold, mark and spread style i posted in another thread that i think there will be less of it in the finals (and consequently higher scoring than has been the case during the season).

I think we saw evidence of that last night with the styles' best proponent being much more attacking with their ball movement and only rarely going to tempo, chip it across the hb football. 

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50 minutes ago, binman said:

On the the chip, hold, mark and spread style i posted in another thread that i think there will be less of it in the finals (and consequently higher scoring than has been the case during the season).

I think we saw evidence of that last night with the styles' best proponent being much more attacking with their ball movement and only rarely going to tempo, chip it across the hb football. 

Essendrug mids aren't that accountable Bin and the drugsters are also terrible at delivery i50 like us catching even their better defending mids out when they miss so often.  No secret they love to run the ball quickly off HB.  But it's what they do with the launch that kills them...

23 intercepts for Meth Coce in defensive 50 last night.  Even worse than the last time they met in Rnd 14...@ 21.  Massive loss right there and allows a quality ball using team like WC the confidence to play on and go for the 45 / overlap more often vs being forced to chip more often across HB against a team that uses ball and whose mids defend better.

Bottom line, the drugsters are a bad sample to judge for evidence of change imv.

The total intercept / turnover differential numbers are also eerily similar in both of those games, indicating that nothing effectively changed with the Drugster's method / quality of ball movement over the last 8 rounds or so.

 WC Differentials: Turnovers / Intercepts 

Rnd 14                         - 14              + 14

Elim Final                    - 13              + 15

Edited by Rusty Nails

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58 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Maybe our coaches didn't see the writing on the wall with the need for quicker mids, patient defensive ball use and smarter forward 50 entries. Although maybe our coaches did know what was required and Vanders - inside mid speed tackling machine, Steve May - strong mark and ball using defender, KK - outside mid run and class never got out on the park.

Whilst I think there is a lot in what you say I think it's easy to forget how good we were at the back end of 2018.  We didn't lack speed and we didn't often get caught out.  We were caught out this year because all of our midfield didn't have a preseason.  All of them.

As for our ball use going forward I think that is very problematic when you have half your team out and the majority of the blokes that deliver it forward missing most of preseason - no practice = less than optimal skills.  I agree we'd be better with more pace, I think small forwards and outside pace is lacking, but you put 9 first 22 players back into the team that played NM in the final round and give the mids a preseason and we are not having this conversation.

As for game plan I think it's interesting.  The Doggies have come alive in the back end of the season playing our 2018 footy.  Essendon played some very good footy with that style.  Brisbane tried to match Geelong at the Gabba with the "down the line defensive" stuff and were losing by 20 odd points at three quarter time.  They played our style footy in the last quarter and won brilliantly.  I'm not convinced that our style of footy is wrong or is dead, it clearly needs fit and skilful players to execute it.

We need to improve on 2018, we need to hone game plans, we need to address weaknesses in our list.  But more importantly than all that we need a good PS, fit players and continuity.  It's no surprise that Brisbane and Geelong finished top 2 this year.  Neither club had an injury really and the 22 had fantastic continuity which is something we just haven't had, even in 2018 we struggles for continuity.  Continuity is totally underestimated by most.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is the wrist slashing and view that we are a horrible footy club in crisis and destitute of players is a complete emotional overreaction to a season from hell.  Much didn't go right but the infrastructure is there for a very powerful rebound.  I don't think there would be one club that has written us off for 2020.

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

The significant rule changes only ended up being 6-6-6 which matters for about 15 seconds after a centre clearance. A very small factor. It shouldn't have mattered at all but Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney couldn't defend a centre stoppage to save themselves so it did mean cascading changes to the midfield.

Jennings would be the one to ask, he was the brain behind the 2 players coming off the back of the square that we were no longer able to use. He was let go by the club for not being able to adapt to that.

May be a minor change overall, but it made a decent dent in our game plan.

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9 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Whilst I think there is a lot in what you say I think it's easy to forget how good we were at the back end of 2018.  We didn't lack speed and we didn't often get caught out.  We were caught out this year because all of our midfield didn't have a preseason.  All of them.

As for our ball use going forward I think that is very problematic when you have half your team out and the majority of the blokes that deliver it forward missing most of preseason - no practice = less than optimal skills.  I agree we'd be better with more pace, I think small forwards and outside pace is lacking, but you put 9 first 22 players back into the team that played NM in the final round and give the mids a preseason and we are not having this conversation.

As for game plan I think it's interesting.  The Doggies have come alive in the back end of the season playing our 2018 footy.  Essendon played some very good footy with that style.  Brisbane tried to match Geelong at the Gabba with the "down the line defensive" stuff and were losing by 20 odd points at three quarter time.  They played our style footy in the last quarter and won brilliantly.  I'm not convinced that our style of footy is wrong or is dead, it clearly needs fit and skilful players to execute it.

We need to improve on 2018, we need to hone game plans, we need to address weaknesses in our list.  But more importantly than all that we need a good PS, fit players and continuity.  It's no surprise that Brisbane and Geelong finished top 2 this year.  Neither club had an injury really and the 22 had fantastic continuity which is something we just haven't had, even in 2018 we struggles for continuity.  Continuity is totally underestimated by most.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is the wrist slashing and view that we are a horrible footy club in crisis and destitute of players is a complete emotional overreaction to a season from hell.  Much didn't go right but the infrastructure is there for a very powerful rebound.  I don't think there would be one club that has written us off for 2020.

Your last para says it all. Spot on.

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7 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Season 2019 was simply out of the box.

Possibly worse than 1997, 2003 and 2007-2013.

 

Been supporting club from day i was born, over 50 years, this year, 2019, was the most disappointing year I’ve ever seen. I was going every week and by the end I was speechless, that Sydney game was just heartbreaking, they played, except Max, Trac, Fritter and Ollie, like they couldn’t give a rats tossbag, couldn’t care what the coaches were telling them, it was horrible. This was Sydney we were playing, no buddy and they hadn’t won for 6 games, and they flogged us. It was disgraceful! 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Jennings would be the one to ask, he was the brain behind the 2 players coming off the back of the square that we were no longer able to use. He was let go by the club for not being able to adapt to that.

May be a minor change overall, but it made a decent dent in our game plan.

We had largely stopped that by finals last year hadn't we? When Harmes/Viney/Oliver could work 2 ways at centre bounces unlike this year when they were underdone for the first month or so. Even last year many questioned if it was actually helping us.

I'd say Jennings was let go because of more of our overall structures and game plan rather than the bounces. There's a stoppage coach who's full time job it is to monitor that area of play, if we were largely undone by the 15 seconds post stoppage he'd be the first to go.

 

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2 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

so, what happened to the post from @Grapeviney

The one on the Rawling's thread you mean EO?

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43 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Essendrug mids aren't that accountable Bin and the drugsters are also terrible at delivery i50 like us catching even their better defending mids out when they miss so often.  No secret they love to run the ball quickly off HB.  But it's what they do with the launch that kills them...

23 intercepts for Meth Coce in defensive 50 last night.  Even worse than the last time they met in Rnd 14...@ 21.  Massive loss right there and allows a quality ball using team like WC the confidence to play on and go for the 45 / overlap more often vs being forced to chip more often across HB against a team that uses ball and whose mids defend better.

Bottom line, the drugsters are a bad sample to judge for evidence of change imv.

The total intercept / turnover differential numbers are also eerily similar in both of those games, indicating that nothing effectively changed with the Drugster's method / quality of ball movement over the last 8 rounds or so.

 WC Differentials: Turnovers / Intercepts 

Rnd 14                         - 14              + 14

Elim Final                    - 13              + 15

Yes one game is not much of a sample. But I was referring to wet toast approach.

Yes the bombers turned it over horrendously (looked very familiar I have to say), but from the get go wc moved it forward very quickly and aggressively, using the corridor and not holding in their back. The quarter time score reflected this attacking style.

Really they only reverted to the chip or around their back half when the bombers closed within 24 points after saads goal. They used tempo to kill rhw bomber's momentum very cleverly. And that was that.

The total match point line was 157. Money for old rope. I predicted a line of 170 and it ended up over that easily.

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7 hours ago, AshleyH30 said:

Funny thing is, Garry seemed very surprised. He said he'd have to call his mate after the show was finished.

Good observation AH30.  I also felt Garry was taken by surprise, and if so, then the club should be commended for keeping this quiet (up till this morning anyway)

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12 minutes ago, binman said:

Yes one game is not much of a sample. But I was referring to wet toast approach.

Yes the bombers turned it over horrendously (looked very familiar I have to say), but from the get go wc moved it forward very quickly and aggressively, using the corridor and not holding in their back. The quarter time score reflected this attacking style.

Really they only reverted to the chip or around their back half when the bombers closed within 24 points after saads goal. They used tempo to kill rhw bomber's momentum very cleverly. And that was that.

The total match point line was 157. Money for old rope. I predicted a line of 170 and it ended up over that easily.

Yes i was also Bin.

I agree, WC were attacking more aggressively from the get go.  Might have reflected their assessment/rating from Rnd 14 (and game day analyst's review of Drugster's last three Rnds or so) of the way it moved the ball (significant turnovers if WC set up & defend as per instructions) and defended mid field ie;  not very effectively.

Effectively allowing some additional risk taking on the part of WC, and earlier into the match, vs other finalists.

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This is a classic case of Josh Mahoney handballing blame again. Been doing it for a decade. Heads around him continue to fall while he gets off scot free. Astounding how many have left the club in his time at the Dees yet he continues to stay receiving his armchair ride to the top. 

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11 minutes ago, olisik said:

This is a classic case of Josh Mahoney handballing blame again. Been doing it for a decade. Heads around him continue to fall while he gets off scot free. Astounding how many have left the club in his time at the Dees yet he continues to stay receiving his armchair ride to the top. 

@olisik, can you walk me through your rationale?

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12 minutes ago, olisik said:

This is a classic case of Josh Mahoney handballing blame again. Been doing it for a decade. Heads around him continue to fall while he gets off scot free. Astounding how many have left the club in his time at the Dees yet he continues to stay receiving his armchair ride to the top. 

Not an elite post.

 

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24 minutes ago, olisik said:

This is a classic case of Josh Mahoney handballing blame again. Been doing it for a decade. Heads around him continue to fall while he gets off scot free. Astounding how many have left the club in his time at the Dees yet he continues to stay receiving his armchair ride to the top. 

I think you need to lie down for quite a while to recover from the illness you have

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