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Sink or Swim and an apology


stevethemanjordan
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Couple' things.

As of this morning, I'm a changed person.

I wish to apologise for playing the antagonist on this forum for too long now and will make a conscious effort to either ignore those whom I disagree with or engage with them in a less emotionally-fuelled way. I'll also refrain from using the term 'happy-go-luckies' as much as I enjoy using it. I have more warning points than 'deeluded' has posts now. Sometimes it's easy to forget that we're all supporters of the MFC but with a range of layers that individualise us from each other. The forum is great, it's an escape, informative, provides comedic relief and triggers my annoyances. Thank you and much appreciation to the creators of demonland.

With that out of the way, I'd like to lay bare what is in my view the most important off-season I will have witnessed. I understand that sounds rather dramatic and the 'happy-go lu.....'  *jokes*.

Yes, it's dramatic.

But let's think about the state of the club for a minute or two. Let's think about what we've been through since 2007 right up until last year. (2018).

* Failed coaches, failed admin, an inability to develop, nurture and pick the right talent, a complete disconnect to the supporter base and no finals.

What was/is the result of those failings that we still see today?

* A missed generation of supporters, financial troubles, still no real home base, extremely poor and questionable leadership due to a lack of players who have come through the club together which has contributed to the absence of any club culture and has had an extremely negative effect on the 'psyche' of the club the individuals come through the doors.

The last point is particularly interesting. Club psyche or belief.

This morning, I was listening to SEN with Whately talking to Buckley about 'belief'. About the fact that when Buckley was playing at Collingwood, the list developed a real appetite and positive winning record when playing interstate over a period of time. That then filtered throughout the AFL world and became something that everyone knew, including young draftees that were picked up by Collingwood. It was already embedded in their psyche. The belief that Collingwood 'travelled well'. In a competition whereby the smallest of margins can give a side an advantage, it got me thinking about the MFC. I started thinking about the very real effect our failings have had on the psyche of every young player that has walked through the doors since 2007. It is clear to me that someone like Petracca, Watts or Hogan would have had vastly different experiences had they walked into a big and successful club like Collingwood from the day they were drafted. Experiences that have a profound effect on the psyche and belief of one's self that can absolutely influence whether or not a player can realise their potential. Is it any wonder why a club like Collingwood have continually churned out genuine stars and match winners over the last decade?  I think of Jordan De Goey, (a player who went at number 5 in the same draft as Petracca and Brayshaw). 

More recently, players like Oliver have been relatively unaffected by the feeling of failure that clouded the club for so long and has been able to forge his own path. Gawn similarly has been able to overcome what I used to label 'MFC conditioning'. Every individual is different and has a different make-up and will therefore be influenced more or less by what the outside world is saying. (Outside world being the club our AFL world).
 

The point I'm trying to make here is that part of the unprecedented drop to 17th on the ladder this year has to be in part attributed to what I'm talking about. A very real feeling and belief of Melbourne doing 'Melbourne things'. The "veil of negativity" as Paul Roos would say. You could feel it on the ground, in the stands as a supporter and clearly some of the players played as if it weighed heavily on them. When Melbourne supporters don't show up to a Friday night game against Sydney because we've 'seen it all before', the players feel that absence on the ground. It all has an effect.

Go back to last year's elimination final at the G. I was standing in line at gate two of the MCC at 1pm and watched in disbelief at the number of buzzing Melbourne supporters that rolled in over the course of that afternoon. We got 90,000 and how many were Melbourne? The pressure meter that night was at 211 points or something ridiculous and we had but a finger nail of the finals experience Geelong had. The supporters and feeling that the supporters emit can have a huge impact on the way an individual will feel and therefore play. 

This is why the club can no longer afford to have seasons like we've just had. For both supporters and players. The disengagement is almost immediate from supporters due to our past and they simply won't turn up which creates an enormous negative effect on the club and players on gameday. And as far as players go, if we end up losing one of our 'core' due to unrest, it will further add to the disengagement of the supporters. We have lived through enough rebuilds, high draft picks and promises that we're building a list that will 'come through together'.

Goodwin must use this off-season in the right way when it comes to trading. When I look at our greatest weakness as a list, it is skill level and decision making and it concerns me when I don't hear us linked to genuine match-winners and highly skilled players like Martin, Higgins (regardless of age) and even Betts. Langdon in my eyes doesn't fix our problems of delivery inside forward 50. Overlap and gut running is pointless when a team consistently butcher the ball and hand it back to the opposition. I would much rather follow what Geelong did at last years trade period. Target players who give us the best chance at retaining the ball inside 50 and creating scoring opportunities. Our inside 50 numbers this year were very good, what does that tell us? Bad delivery going forward and an inability to lock the ball inside 50. 

We can completely change the list profile if we're aggressive and bold enough. 

This is completely make or break for Goodwin and for the club in my view.

Apologies for the selfish post.

 

 

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Top post STMJ. i agree with much of it.

In particular i 100% agree with how critical this off season and next season is. Whatever the cause of this year's horror show we cannot afford another like it. 

Agree also on who we should target for drafting and trading. We need skill. Have done for a decade. It is the key reason I was so annoyed we got rid of watts and why i was so perplexed with our drafting last year. Where was the silk?

It is also a reason why I would not be opposed to trading Brayshaw. In normal circumstances I'd be dead against it. But he is on of the few players with real currency and if it were me I'd offer him for brad hill. 

Edited by binman
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1 hour ago, binman said:

It is also a reason why I would not be opposed to trading Brayshaw. In normal circumstances I'd be dead against it. But he is on of the few players with real currency and if it were me I'd offer him for brad hill. 

Speaking of Brad Hill, he shouldn't have any right to choose his club of choice (rumored to be St Kilda) considering he has multiple years left on his contract with Freo.

Hill should go to whichever club benefits Freo the most, and if that's Brayshaw for Hill, then so be it.

Would we have the salary cap to fit Hill's asking price?

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1 hour ago, binman said:

Top post STMJ. i agree with much of it.

In particular i 100% agree with how critical this off season and next season is. Whatever the cause of this year's horror show we cannot afford another like it. 

Agree also on who we should target for drafting and trading. We need skill. Have done for a decade. It is the key reason I was so annoyed we got rid of watts and why i was so perplexed with our drafting last year. Where was the silk?

It is also a reason why I would not be opposed to trading Brayshaw. In normal circumstances I'd be dead against it. But he is on of the few players with real currency and if it were me I'd offer him for brad hill. 

It’s true. I’ve been opposed but I’m coming around to it. For the very reason STMJ expressed. This is a v critical off season for us. We need to generate hope fr the supporters and really meet the issues w our list. We can’t trade viney as he’s captain... but that would have been my preference. Brayshaw is a gun and mainly I’ve loved him but we just have an excess of his type and someone has got to go. Adding hill and Langdon would bring a lot of excitement and address our flaws. 

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2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Couple' things.

As of this morning, I'm a changed person.

I wish to apologise for playing the antagonist on this forum for too long now and will make a conscious effort to either ignore those whom I disagree with or engage with them in a less emotionally-fuelled way. I'll also refrain from using the term 'happy-go-luckies' as much as I enjoy using it. I have more warning points than 'deeluded' has posts now. Sometimes it's easy to forget that we're all supporters of the MFC but with a range of layers that individualise us from each other. The forum is great, it's an escape, informative, provides comedic relief and triggers my annoyances. Thank you and much appreciation to the creators of demonland.

With that out of the way, I'd like to lay bare what is in my view the most important off-season I will have witnessed. I understand that sounds rather dramatic and the 'happy-go lu.....'  *jokes*.

Yes, it's dramatic.

But let's think about the state of the club for a minute or two. Let's think about what we've been through since 2007 right up until last year. (2018).

* Failed coaches, failed admin, an inability to develop, nurture and pick the right talent, a complete disconnect to the supporter base and no finals.

What was/is the result of those failings that we still see today?

* A missed generation of supporters, financial troubles, still no real home base, extremely poor and questionable leadership due to a lack of players who have come through the club together which has contributed to the absence of any club culture and has had an extremely negative effect on the 'psyche' of the club the individuals come through the doors.

The last point is particularly interesting. Club psyche or belief.

This morning, I was listening to SEN with Whately talking to Buckley about 'belief'. About the fact that when Buckley was playing at Collingwood, the list developed a real appetite and positive winning record when playing interstate over a period of time. That then filtered throughout the AFL world and became something that everyone knew, including young draftees that were picked up by Collingwood. It was already embedded in their psyche. The belief that Collingwood 'travelled well'. In a competition whereby the smallest of margins can give a side an advantage, it got me thinking about the MFC. I started thinking about the very real effect our failings have had on the psyche of every young player that has walked through the doors since 2007. It is clear to me that someone like Petracca, Watts or Hogan would have had vastly different experiences had they walked into a big and successful club like Collingwood from the day they were drafted. Experiences that have a profound effect on the psyche and belief of one's self that can absolutely influence whether or not a player can realise their potential. Is it any wonder why a club like Collingwood have continually churned out genuine stars and match winners over the last decade?  I think of Jordan De Goey, (a player who went at number 5 in the same draft as Petracca and Brayshaw). 

More recently, players like Oliver have been relatively unaffected by the feeling of failure that clouded the club for so long and has been able to forge his own path. Gawn similarly has been able to overcome what I used to label 'MFC conditioning'. Every individual is different and has a different make-up and will therefore be influenced more or less by what the outside world is saying. (Outside world being the club our AFL world).
 

The point I'm trying to make here is that part of the unprecedented drop to 17th on the ladder this year has to be in part attributed to what I'm talking about. A very real feeling and belief of Melbourne doing 'Melbourne things'. The "veil of negativity" as Paul Roos would say. You could feel it on the ground, in the stands as a supporter and clearly some of the players played as if it weighed heavily on them. When Melbourne supporters don't show up to a Friday night game against Sydney because we've 'seen it all before', the players feel that absence on the ground. It all has an effect.

Go back to last year's elimination final at the G. I was standing in line at gate two of the MCC at 1pm and watched in disbelief at the number of buzzing Melbourne supporters that rolled in over the course of that afternoon. We got 90,000 and how many were Melbourne? The pressure meter that night was at 211 points or something ridiculous and we had but a finger nail of the finals experience Geelong had. The supporters and feeling that the supporters emit can have a huge impact on the way an individual will feel and therefore play. 

This is why the club can no longer afford to have seasons like we've just had. For both supporters and players. The disengagement is almost immediate from supporters due to our past and they simply won't turn up which creates an enormous negative effect on the club and players on gameday. And as far as players go, if we end up losing one of our 'core' due to unrest, it will further add to the disengagement of the supporters. We have lived through enough rebuilds, high draft picks and promises that we're building a list that will 'come through together'.

Goodwin must use this off-season in the right way when it comes to trading. When I look at our greatest weakness as a list, it is skill level and decision making and it concerns me when I don't hear us linked to genuine match-winners and highly skilled players like Martin, Higgins (regardless of age) and even Betts. Langdon in my eyes doesn't fix our problems of delivery inside forward 50. Overlap and gut running is pointless when a team consistently butcher the ball and hand it back to the opposition. I would much rather follow what Geelong did at last years trade period. Target players who give us the best chance at retaining the ball inside 50 and creating scoring opportunities. Our inside 50 numbers this year were very good, what does that tell us? Bad delivery going forward and an inability to lock the ball inside 50. 

We can completely change the list profile if we're aggressive and bold enough. 

This is completely make or break for Goodwin and for the club in my view.

Apologies for the selfish post.

 

 

Not a selfish post at all, in fact a very good one IMO.

I agree. This off season could very well determine our long term future, as we either hit back hard and become relevant again, or slide into oblivion.

As for the providing of comic relief, as the main contributor, I thank you for your appreciation of my efforts.

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3 hours ago, binman said:

Top post STMJ. i agree with much of it.

In particular i 100% agree with how critical this off season and next season is. Whatever the cause of this year's horror show we cannot afford another like it. 

Agree also on who we should target for drafting and trading. We need skill. Have done for a decade. It is the key reason I was so annoyed we got rid of watts and why i was so perplexed with our drafting last year. Where was the silk?

It is also a reason why I would not be opposed to trading Brayshaw. In normal circumstances I'd be dead against it. But he is on of the few players with real currency and if it were me I'd offer him for brad hill. 

Me too.

I've mentioned a couple of times that Oliver and Gawn are just about the only 'must keeps'. We have lots of contested ball winners, but no one of quality that can run, spread and deliver well. If we lost Gus and got Hill, it would improve us. Doesn't mean one is necessarily better than the other, rather that Hill is what we need more than Gus.

I didn't want Isaac Smith a few months ago because of his age. However, I've come around to realising his speed and line breaking would help us no end. Leadership and experience too, which we'll lose with Lewis retiring .

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Don't do it Darth, i mean Steve.  You can still come back from the feminine side brother.  It isn't too late!  Just hand over the chopping board and everything will be fine...i promise..

darth vader carrot GIF

Edited by Rusty Nails
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10 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Me too.

I've mentioned a couple of times that Oliver and Gawn are just about the only 'must keeps'. We have lots of contested ball winners, but no one of quality that can run, spread and deliver well. If we lost Gus and got Hill, it would improve us. Doesn't mean one is necessarily better than the other, rather that Hill is what we need more than Gus.

I didn't want Isaac Smith a few months ago because of his age. However, I've come around to realising his speed and line breaking would help us no end. Leadership and experience too, which we'll lose with Lewis retiring .

Isaac Smith will move but not to Melbourne. We are no longer a destination club. As a result of this season and disunity which is evident on the field, we have lost the respect of other clubs. We are regarded as a rabble by opposition players. 

 

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Being self aware when one is online is important. Reflecting upon one’s conduct online is not only good for one’s mental health but also for the overall tenor of the forums one uses.

I dropped off here after the first Saints loss because I could see real potential for the s***fight that was to come. I lived through the Neeld era on this board and the various divisive characters who held court during those days. I’ll admit at times that I didn’t cover myself in glory on occasion at that time. I like you @stevethemanjordan needed to reassess.

Some time away has allowed me hopefully to come back to post in a more constructive way.

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4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Couple' things.

This is completely make or break for Goodwin and for the club in my view.

Apologies for the selfish post.

 

 

Well written and I read it with interest. Good to read something discussing our club without any bickering about what another poster did or did not say.

i do think 2020 is a seriously important year if we fail again then I really think we will stay clogged in the poo at the bottom of the ladder for the next 15 or even 20 years. A generation of support gone again. 

At least when ND was in charge we won one lost one, but did not kill off the supporters hopes or brands that attached to our jumper. I have been s member for 35 years our of the last 50.  Have friends who it’s 50 out of 50. We deserve better. 

But we had the 50’s and 60’s  a great base. 

But the current younger supporters have no base.

change is needed, badly needed. It’s got to be up to those with energy and brains about football to decide how deep the cuts should be. I hope we do not just wave our hand and say it will be all right,

i did like most of your post cheers

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Top post Steve. In my observations there are far worse offenders than you in the [censored] stirring/insufferable [censored] stakes. I’ve always enjoyed your contributions. But kudos for putting your hand up all the same. I think we have all been guilty at some point of letting our frustrations get the better of us.

The psyche of Melbourne supporters would make for an interesting thesis. There are common threads but in certain ways we all react differently. At one end of the spectrum you have those who actively seek out the positive, all but turning a blind eye to the negative, and always looking to the future to save themselves from drowning in the present. At the other end of the spectrum you have those who shroud themselves in the negative and refuse to acknowledge the positive after such a dismal performance. And you have the majority who fall somewhere in between.

To an extent, both sides of the spectrum are understandable. Similarly, both sides are open to criticism.

The eternally optimistic can be accused of being too forgiving and therefore not holding the club and its leadership accountable. Case in point were those who insisted, to the very end, that the Neeld ship would turn.

The eternally pessimistic are the poster children for the “veil of negativity” which I personally believe is a real thing and does have an impact on a club’s fortunes (which you also alluded to). By the same token, can you really blame the supporters for feeling that way after decades of bitter disappointment? I don’t. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a real thing.

It’s all about finding that right balance between being a valuable supporter and providing a kick up the [censored] where needed. I think most would agree that continuing to be a paid member is the minimum requirement. The club is bigger than the individual. Be critical. Hold them accountable. But continue to support and try to, in your weaker moments, find a positive mindset.

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Good post mate. We absolutely need to change our list profile and if we don't, we will fail.

I now suspect Goodwin will be sacked next year because we won't make the hard calls and draft/trade shrewdly, but this may be in part to the veil of negativity you mention.

I hope we can forge a new Melbourne, something that I was so excited about towards the end of last year, where there seemed to be a tangible growing mateship amongst the playing group. 

I don't think it's dramatic at all to say the club is on the precipice, one way or the other. If we really struggle again next year, everything will plummet (membership, our young core will request to be traded etc) and all the hard work we'd been building to under Roos and Jackson for the last 4 or so years will be for nothing. 

The turnaround from last season really has been quite incredible and I can only hope we reverse our fortunes next year.

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Thanks for taking me back to that Geelong final - club and supporters out in force - Geelong players and fans barely noticeable.

Preferred the Dawks game for personal reasons but yep - all relates back to the building of a club cultural change (avoiding 'brand') we were starved of and begging for - for a lifetime now.

Had Roos & Jackson stayed on another year each I think that just may have done it.

Thanks again for the warm 'n fuzzies.

Now back to the worry beads.

 

 

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12 hours ago, A F said:

I now suspect Goodwin will be sacked next year because we won't make the hard calls and draft/trade shrewdly, but this may be in part to the veil of negativity you mention.

I think we will make the hard calls on the list and Goodwin has a good history here - Watts and Hogan trades.

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15 hours ago, Monocology said:

Thanks for taking me back to that Geelong final - club and supporters out in force - Geelong players and fans barely noticeable.

Preferred the Dawks game for personal reasons but yep - all relates back to the building of a club cultural change (avoiding 'brand') we were starved of and begging for - for a lifetime now.

Had Roos & Jackson stayed on another year each I think that just may have done it.

Thanks again for the warm 'n fuzzies.

Now back to the worry beads.

 

 

For me, it was a similar feeling at the Hawthorn game too. We thoroughly outnumbered them in the EF and the SF.

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3 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

I think we will make the hard calls on the list and Goodwin has a good history here - Watts and Hogan trades.

This is a fair call mate. Let's hope he does what's required.

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On 8/29/2019 at 12:30 PM, stevethemanjordan said:

Couple' things.

As of this morning, I'm a changed person.

 

Apologies for the selfish post.

 

 

I liked Dom Tyson and didn’t like your attack on me for defending him. You were proven correct on DT.

Your footy insight seems good albeit negative.

I wonder if you are just a negative person in general and would be off the mark if you barracked for Hawthorn or are insightful.

We’ll see when we win the premiership next year ?

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