2 wins, 14 losses

[SFebes 4,692]

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Haha ? what an absolute Loser Attitude to cling onto

The Damage was all executed by Half time

Meth Coke only needed to hold us at bay, to walk into a GF  

 We were absolutely hung drawn and quartered in that first half,  and i don’t think Goodwin wants to confront that fact.

But he will have to do it, if he wants to keep his job long term. 

Studying psychology for a number of years tells me that, and that is what this is...

 

The only loser attitude around here is yours, you constantly spam this forum with rubbish and conspiracies since the 1960’s ffs. You might understand psychology old boy, but you have a poor understanding of football clubs.

[Dee*ceiving 860]

15 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Listen I've bit my tongue for 5 months now but this (like your the club will never move forward till everyone involved with 186 is gone) is ridiculous.

You are one of the many who lives in the past moaning about your sad 55 years following the club, let me set you straight this playing group has nothing to do with the past

They are not haunted by Norm Smith

186 is nothing to them now, (it would if anything made the Elimination final win a little more enjoyable for Chunk  Gawn and anyone else who was on the list)

The Neeld years

The only legacy the past has on this list is the void caused by poor drafting in between the Danners and Neeld eras

The players will be well and truly over the Prelim final loss or did you miss Bakers debut at Optus when we kicked ourselves out of the game.

This weeks game has nothing to do with last season

BB is somewhat right about being run into the ground at the end of the season but they went for broke and fell short.

You roll the dice and this is where we are at, seasoned players get conditioned to that

I anticipate the old " You just accept mediocrity" response but  you couldn't be further from the truth.

mark this down.

Until the core of Oliver,  Brayshaw, Harmes, Weid, Trac, Lever, Spargo, Frost, Baker, Salem, Pruess, Gawn, Hannan, Hore and Petty get a decent spread of between 80-150 games across them and Viney, May, Tmac, Melksham start pushing 150+ we will not see consistent top 4 contention over successive years.

Others will come in and out but that is the core moving forward for sustained contention. It's the legacy left because of the recruiting mistakes which left the void

I agree with the first bit, the playing group couldn't care less about 186 and are definitely over the 2018 prelim. 

However, Hannan, Spargo and Preuss will struggle to get to 80 games let alone 150 and I've got doubts on Weid as well (unfortunately and I very much hope to be proven wrong!) 

[Pennant St Dee 11,241]

3 hours ago, Dee*ceiving said:

I agree with the first bit, the playing group couldn't care less about 186 and are definitely over the 2018 prelim. 

However, Hannan, Spargo and Preuss will struggle to get to 80 games let alone 150 and I've got doubts on Weid as well (unfortunately and I very much hope to be proven wrong!) 

Maybe

Hannan will get to 80 games unless injury prevents him from getting there

Pruess has shown improvement in the tank from the start of the year but is #2 to one of the 2 best rucks in the comp. Think Sauce Jacobs behind Kruezar

I liked what Spargo showed last season and a few minute cameos this season which despite his size give me some hope for him.  He's a good user and has a footy brain

[Wiseblood 24,636]

26 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

 

I liked what Spargo showed last season and a few minute cameos this season which despite his size give me some hope for him.  He's a good user and has a footy brain

Not to mention that Spargo is still just 19 years of age.  He played an important role for us during our surge for the finals at just 18 years of age.  The kid has the ability, and drop off at his age isn't uncommon.  I think it would be short sighted for supporters to write him off just yet.

[Engorged Onion 9,224]

18 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Of course fatigue was a factor, when did i ever deny that. I put that down to Goodwin’s coaching. He only knows one way, which is why we haven’t seen any change of style this year. 

I see fatigue as a factor, not in the sense that game plan induces fatigue more readily than any other, moreso our players are young, and they were up for 6-8 weeks

Goodwin wont change the style, merely to adapt to who we have on the park (or who we dont).... They and the FD would have hoped for better this year... and knowing the nuances understand that with limited prep and all the injuries...then the year was to play out poorly, which isn't a reason in itself to change the course of building a system with continuity.

He and the FD can willingly write this year off - and are still playing the game over the next few years.

I'll repeat, Goodwin's style isn't anymore fatiguing than any other. They all have to run, and they all get smashed.

[beelzebub 22,225]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

I see fatigue as a factor, not in the sense that game plan induces fatigue more readily than any other, moreso our players are young, and they were up for 6-8 weeks

Goodwin wont change the style, merely to adapt to who we have on the park (or who we dont).... They and the FD would have hoped for better this year... and knowing the nuances understand that with limited prep and all the injuries...then the year was to play out poorly, which isn't a reason in itself to change the course of building a system with continuity.

He and the FD can willingly write this year off - and are still playing the game over the next few years.

I'll repeat, Goodwin's style isn't anymore fatiguing than any other. They all have to run, and they all get smashed.

I have to disagree. The game style is very much the cause. it requires relentless attack on the ball..all bull at a gate stuff. There is hardly a sniff of tempo. Our style isnt about skill, about techniques, about any real panache , it's all bang crash stuff. You can't keep this up for a game let alone any number put together without burning out players. Not all of our lot are kids.

Those 6-8 weeks that we were "up" as it's put were also directly after the club was being ridiculed for it's seeming inability to take a real scalp.  The whip came out...and the bull at a gate  style got turned up to "danger will robinson"  .It was effective for a short while...and then it wasnt. Not only had we super fatigued our list but put any number on gurneys awaiting the ambo to the surgery dept.

Not all game styles are the same....ours is putrid bordering on amateurish.

Edited July 19, 2019 by beelzebub

[Pennant St Dee 11,241]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Not to mention that Spargo is still just 19 years of age.  He played an important role for us during our surge for the finals at just 18 years of age.  The kid has the ability, and drop off at his age isn't uncommon.  I think it would be short sighted for supporters to write him off just yet.

Are you surprised there are a lot of short sighted people on Demonland

It's strange how one can be short sighted but still believe Norm Smith, the 87 Prelim, 186 has some hold over this list. Whilst also having no comprehension of how injuries, interupted programs can effect fitness and subsequently have an impact on skills and confidence.

and yet it's the Pies supporters who wear the stupidity stereotype 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

9 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Are you surprised there are a lot of short sighted people on Demonland

It's strange how one can be short sighted but still believe Norm Smith, the 87 Prelim, 186 has some hold over this list. Whilst also having no comprehension of how injuries, interupted programs can effect fitness and subsequently have an impact on skills and confidence.

and yet it's the Pies supporters who wear the stupidity stereotype 

Not surprised at all.  I was just trying to be diplomatic.

What you mentioned above only has a hold on certain supporters.  Current players couldn't care less and are far more interested in forging their own path.

[Demon Dynasty 15,186]

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I have to disagree. The game style is very much the cause. it requires relentless attack on the ball..all bull at a gate stuff. There is hardly a sniff of tempo. Our style isnt about skill, about techniques, about any real panache , it's all bang crash stuff. You can't keep this up for a game let alone any number put together without burning out players. Not all of our lot are kids.

Those 6-8 weeks that we were "up" as it's put were also directly after the club was being ridiculed for it's seeming inability to take a real scalp.  The whip came out...and the bull at a gate  style got turned up to "danger will robinson"  .It was effective for a short while...and then it wasnt. Not only had we super fatigued our list but put any number on gurneys awaiting the ambo to the surgery dept.

Not all game styles are the same....ours is putrid bordering on amateurish.

Solid post and agree with most of that BZ.  Except the last part....partially.

Why do i say partially?  The game style can and does work for parts of a match/season when you have most of your best 26 to 28 on the list fit and firing on all cylinders. 

Unfortuantely, as you have expressed very succinctly, playing that particular style for most of a match/matches/season oft leads to extensive fatigue/injuries and an eating into the depth of one's list.  Which then impacts on the ability and success of the team / club as a whole to maintain a winning run of games/seasons in the medium to long term.  Especially when the fatigue/injuries see you tapping into players post your best 28 (ish).

Unfortunately once you delve beyond your best 28 or so, as a minnow AFL club (ie; not an AFL favoured top 4 Vic, interstate or start up), you then drop away significantly from your best and your ability to produce a level of intensity in a chaos game that will get the chocolates other than against very ordinary bottom feeders (who are also struggling badly).

Among other fixes in the next few pre-seasons/trades/drafts, Goody needs to recognise the above and adjust accordingly, injecting a slower possession tempo option into the mix for significant parts of a game more often if we are to become a serious (regular) finals contender and take a shot at a flag or two.

My eye is on this for 2020.  Start seeing it and it will be clear that Goody is on the money.  Then we just need the cattle / success at the draft/trade table.  Much of that depends on an AFL system (fixed) though.  And we are not GWS, GC, the Hawks or the Pies etc so i wont be holding my breath on succeeding on this part.  At this point we remain one of the bottom feeders in the eyes of Gill and likely to continue receiving the chaff instead of the wheat.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[praha 10,267]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:50 PM, Wiseblood said:

Great post, but you're banging your head against a brick wall.  The bloke will never, ever change.  

He thinks the club is haunted by all these things when in fact it's him whose haunted by it all.

You might be right but what's eerie is that it all keeps happening. You can't ignore the facts. I mean, it makes me laugh just how much we've dropped off this year. It's unprecedented. Coach killing. And distinctively Melbourne. Some of the stats are mind boggling. 

I think it just pisses people off that other shrugs their shoulder at a 17th place finish, which seems likely. We absolutely need to be passed that but somehow we find ourselves "Doing a Melbourne" and regressing so badly that it's hard not to make a connection. 

You say those past events are irrelevant. But history repeats. Culture lingers. 

I think a lot of you are in denial tbh.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

1 hour ago, praha said:

You might be right but what's eerie is that it all keeps happening. You can't ignore the facts. I mean, it makes me laugh just how much we've dropped off this year. It's unprecedented. Coach killing. And distinctively Melbourne. Some of the stats are mind boggling. 

I think it just pisses people off that other shrugs their shoulder at a 17th place finish, which seems likely. We absolutely need to be passed that but somehow we find ourselves "Doing a Melbourne" and regressing so badly that it's hard not to make a connection. 

You say those past events are irrelevant. But history repeats. Culture lingers. 

I think a lot of you are in denial tbh.

Pin this post. 

[beelzebub 22,225]

2 hours ago, praha said:

You might be right but what's eerie is that it all keeps happening. You can't ignore the facts. I mean, it makes me laugh just how much we've dropped off this year. It's unprecedented. Coach killing. And distinctively Melbourne. Some of the stats are mind boggling. 

I think it just pisses people off that other shrugs their shoulder at a 17th place finish, which seems likely. We absolutely need to be passed that but somehow we find ourselves "Doing a Melbourne" and regressing so badly that it's hard not to make a connection. 

You say those past events are irrelevant. But history repeats. Culture lingers. 

I think a lot of you are in denial tbh.

just because it needs another viewing 

[beelzebub 22,225]

16 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Solid post and agree with most of that BZ.  Except the last part....partially.

Why do i say partially?  The game style can and does work for parts of a match/season when you have most of your best 26 to 28 on the list fit and firing on all cylinders. 

Unfortuantely, as you have expressed very succinctly, playing that particular style for most of a match/matches/season oft leads to extensive fatigue/injuries and an eating into the depth of one's list.  Which then impacts on the ability and success of the team / club as a whole to maintain a winning run of games/seasons in the medium to long term.  Especially when the fatigue/injuries see you tapping into players post your best 28 (ish).

Unfortunately once you delve beyond your best 28 or so, as a minnow AFL club (ie; not an AFL favoured top 4 Vic, interstate or start up), you then drop away significantly from your best and your ability to produce a level of intensity in a chaos game that will get the chocolates other than against very ordinary bottom feeders (who are also struggling badly).

Among other fixes in the next few pre-seasons/trades/drafts, Goody needs to recognise the above and adjust accordingly, injecting a slower possession tempo option into the mix for significant parts of a game more often if we are to become a serious (regular) finals contender and take a shot at a flag or two.

My eye is on this for 2020.  Start seeing it and it will be clear that Goody is on the money.  Then we just need the cattle / success at the draft/trade table.  Much of that depends on an AFL system (fixed) though.  And we are not GWS, GC, the Hawks or the Pies etc so i wont be holding my breath on succeeding on this part.  At this point we remain one of the bottom feeders in the eyes of Gill and likely to continue receiving the chaff instead of the wheat.

Thanks Rusty....my thinking about the last line is that its the very fact it's persisted with displays the amateur behind it.Anyone with a clue surely brings a quiver to the battle...not a solitary arrow ??

[Wiseblood 24,636]

3 hours ago, praha said:

You might be right but what's eerie is that it all keeps happening. You can't ignore the facts. I mean, it makes me laugh just how much we've dropped off this year. It's unprecedented. Coach killing. And distinctively Melbourne. Some of the stats are mind boggling. 

I think it just pisses people off that other shrugs their shoulder at a 17th place finish, which seems likely. We absolutely need to be passed that but somehow we find ourselves "Doing a Melbourne" and regressing so badly that it's hard not to make a connection. 

You say those past events are irrelevant. But history repeats. Culture lingers. 

I think a lot of you are in denial tbh.

I think it pisses people like me, and others, off how you can generalise our feelings about the season as just 'shrugging our shoulders' because we look at things in a rational manner.  Do you really think after each loss I shrug my shoulders and move on?  Of course not.  No one here would have that reaction.  I just choose to look at things a little deeper than jumping off the deep end.  I'm not saying you do that personally mind you.

But the past, to the current crop of players, is totally irrelevant.  The '87 Prelim, Norm Smith sacking so on and bloody so on have nothing to do with the current people at the club.  Nothing.  And even if it was relevant, what do you want them to do in terms of acknowledging it?  Do you want them to discuss how we shouldn't run over the mark in a Prelim every time they review a game?

I'm not in denial.  I'm living in the now.  And the now is that, after four years of good, incremental progress and generally good list management, we've had a shocker this year.  The only unprecedented part is potentially how far down the ladder we finish, but we aren't making finals so I'm not too fussed where we finish due to what we've slogged through this year.  Other clubs have done it - the Hawks won a flag and then missed the finals.  The Eagles were great for a few years and then dropped right off to finish for a season in the bottom four.  I'll make it clear that I'm not comparing our side to the Hawthorn's of the late 00s, but it's not as if Melbourne are the only club to do this.  And there are major circumstances as to why. 

I acknowledge that changes need to be made, both in the box (I think Misson moving on is a very good thing) and on the field.  We've got some crucial decisions to make, no doubt about it, but we won't be basing it or thinking about the past.  We need to think about what's best for the club moving forward.

To me, the only people who are scarred by the past are supporters.  If those supporters want to live in the past and slash their wrists about it, be my guest.  I won't be joining you.  I'm already looking ahead with anticipation at how we go about our off season and getting back up the ladder again in 2020.  I'd expect the club to be doing the same.

[titan_uranus 22,218]

12 hours ago, praha said:

You might be right but what's eerie is that it all keeps happening. You can't ignore the facts. I mean, it makes me laugh just how much we've dropped off this year. It's unprecedented. Coach killing. And distinctively Melbourne. Some of the stats are mind boggling. 

I think it just pisses people off that other shrugs their shoulder at a 17th place finish, which seems likely. We absolutely need to be passed that but somehow we find ourselves "Doing a Melbourne" and regressing so badly that it's hard not to make a connection. 

You say those past events are irrelevant. But history repeats. Culture lingers. 

I think a lot of you are in denial tbh.

The same people get [censored] off when posters say it's all 186 or the 87 prelim, without even for a second explaining how those events are causing the current problem. Even your sentence of "history repeats. Culture lingers" doesn't explain how what the club did in 1987 or 2011 is impacting on what's going on right now. 

Until this year we had five consecutive years of improvement in a W-L sense. You started a thread about the embarrassing records we were setting in the 2007-2013 period and we knocked almost all of them off. We made finals, we won two of them, we cracked 50,000 members.

Then 2019 happened, and it has been a disaster on almost every front.

But 2019 on its own is not enough evidence for me to think we've "regressed" to a point that connects the 2019 MFC to the 2011 MFC, for example. 

There are well documented and recent examples of clubs building, hitting their straps, but then taking a step or two back (Geelong 2006, Richmond 2016. Even Hawthorn 2009 and the Dogs 2017-18, although it mattered a lot less for them given their early flag wins). 

I don't agree with anyone who says we're a lock to be good again in 2020. But for the same reason (it's impossible to say until we hit 2020 and see what happens), I don't agree with people who say we're back to square one or that this year has seen us regress back to the "old MFC". 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

I want to follow up my post above by looking at a predicted 'Round 1' side from March 10 that was chosen by @Clint Bizkit.  Here is the side that would be, in his opinion, our starting 22:

FB: Jetta May Hibberd

HB: Lewis Frost Salem

Centre: Brayshaw Oliver Jones

HF: Petracca Weideman Fritsch

FF: Melksham T. McDonald vandenBerg

Foll: Gawn Viney Harmes

Int: Hunt J. Smith Stretch Spargo

This team, from what I can gather, factors in the fact that Hannan wouldn't be ready for Round One.  He is one guy who was instrumental in our finals run who has struggled since getting back on the park.  We've missed him this year.

Of the back line - May and Jetta, as well as Jake Lever, have missed large chunks of the season.  They're our three best defenders.  Lewis, who was borderline best 22, has been injured and in and out of the side.  Frost and Salem have had good seasons while Hibberd has been just okay.

The forward line is where it gets worse.   Vanders, another who was an important cog in our finals, hasn't played a game.  Melksham has missed large chunks of time.  T Mac had off season surgery and took forever to get on the park.  Even Joel Smith, who is on the interchange, hasn't played a single game for the season.  Fritsch has been handy, but has spent more time back than forward, while Spargo has had second year blues, and has had them hard.  Trac has been the shining light, while Hunt has been good.  Weideman, another kid, has struggled big time.

Our midfield has been a disappointment, but all of them had off season surgery and took time to get going.  They are still working on, and struggling at, the two way aspect of the game.  Oliver and Harmes have been good for most of the season, but Gus is waaaay off the mark.

Put it all together and you get what we have now.

Also, the injuries have forced us to play both Wagners, Oscar Mac, Preuss, ANB, Tom Sparrow, Dunkley and others when they're either not ready for regular AFL footy or just not up to it.  Just look at the makeshift forward line we put out there last weekend.  We did well to get as close as we did.

[dazzledavey36 48,641]

9 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I think it pisses people like me, and others, off how you can generalise our feelings about the season as just 'shrugging our shoulders' because we look at things in a rational manner.  Do you really think after each loss I shrug my shoulders and move on?  Of course not.  No one here would have that reaction.  I just choose to look at things a little deeper than jumping off the deep end.  I'm not saying you do that personally mind you.

But the past, to the current crop of players, is totally irrelevant.  The '87 Prelim, Norm Smith sacking so on and bloody so on have nothing to do with the current people at the club.  Nothing.  And even if it was relevant, what do you want them to do in terms of acknowledging it?  Do you want them to discuss how we shouldn't run over the mark in a Prelim every time they review a game?

I'm not in denial.  I'm living in the now.  And the now is that, after four years of good, incremental progress and generally good list management, we've had a shocker this year.  The only unprecedented part is potentially how far down the ladder we finish, but we aren't making finals so I'm not too fussed where we finish due to what we've slogged through this year.  Other clubs have done it - the Hawks won a flag and then missed the finals.  The Eagles were great for a few years and then dropped right off to finish for a season in the bottom four.  I'll make it clear that I'm not comparing our side to the Hawthorn's of the late 00s, but it's not as if Melbourne are the only club to do this.  And there are major circumstances as to why. 

I acknowledge that changes need to be made, both in the box (I think Misson moving on is a very good thing) and on the field.  We've got some crucial decisions to make, no doubt about it, but we won't be basing it or thinking about the past.  We need to think about what's best for the club moving forward.

To me, the only people who are scarred by the past are supporters.  If those supporters want to live in the past and slash their wrists about it, be my guest.  I won't be joining you.  I'm already looking ahead with anticipation at how we go about our off season and getting back up the ladder again in 2020.  I'd expect the club to be doing the same.

Bloody hell its good to have you back.

This is a brilliant post. 

I still laugh and shake my head how people still bring up the past like 1987.. as i have pointed before. Half of our playing list wasn't even born around that time and yet that apparently still lingers in footy clubs? Good god...

[Diamond_Jim 11,674]

'87 marked 23 years out of the finals... it nearly killed this club.. (remember the merger)

One finals series in fifteen years... join the dots

The club is the environment in which the team performs and our club is lacking.

Collingwood may have gone 32 years without a flag but they certainly didn't go 23 years or even 14 without a finals appearance.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Diamond_Jim

[dazzledavey36 48,641]

4 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

'87 marked 23 years out of the finals... it nearly killed this club.. (remember the merger)

One finals series in fifteen years... join the dots

The club is the environment in which the team performs and our club is lacking.

Collingwood may have gone 32 years without a flag but they certainly didn't go 23 years or even 14 without a finals appearance.

You mean 4 finals series in 15 years..

Well what is your suggestion then? People sook and winge thats its an environment stigma thats hung on from the past (still makes me laugh) but yet no one has come up with a solution. And regardless if there was a solution you'd still get the same excuse from the same people always resorting back to the past.

Cant win with some of our supporters.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

I want to follow up my post above by looking at a predicted 'Round 1' side from March 10 that was chosen by @Clint Bizkit.  Here is the side that would be, in his opinion, our starting 22:

FB: Jetta May Hibberd

HB: Lewis Frost Salem

Centre: Brayshaw Oliver Jones

HF: Petracca Weideman Fritsch

FF: Melksham T. McDonald vandenBerg

Foll: Gawn Viney Harmes

Int: Hunt J. Smith Stretch Spargo

This team, from what I can gather, factors in the fact that Hannan wouldn't be ready for Round One.  He is one guy who was instrumental in our finals run who has struggled since getting back on the park.  We've missed him this year.

Of the back line - May and Jetta, as well as Jake Lever, have missed large chunks of the season.  They're our three best defenders.  Lewis, who was borderline best 22, has been injured and in and out of the side.  Frost and Salem have had good seasons while Hibberd has been just okay.

The forward line is where it gets worse.   Vanders, another who was an important cog in our finals, hasn't played a game.  Melksham has missed large chunks of time.  T Mac had off season surgery and took forever to get on the park.  Even Joel Smith, who is on the interchange, hasn't played a single game for the season.  Fritsch has been handy, but has spent more time back than forward, while Spargo has had second year blues, and has had them hard.  Trac has been the shining light, while Hunt has been good.  Weideman, another kid, has struggled big time.

Our midfield has been a disappointment, but all of them had off season surgery and took time to get going.  They are still working on, and struggling at, the two way aspect of the game.  Oliver and Harmes have been good for most of the season, but Gus is waaaay off the mark.

Put it all together and you get what we have now.

Also, the injuries have forced us to play both Wagners, Oscar Mac, Preuss, ANB, Tom Sparrow, Dunkley and others when they're either not ready for regular AFL footy or just not up to it.  Just look at the makeshift forward line we put out there last weekend.  We did well to get as close as we did.

But part of the issue is Hibberd and Jetta look like they are declining rapidly and will never be as good as the once were. Jones also. 

Lewis is finished now. The only players who have actually come close to improving are Salem, Frost and Hunt.

The hope that players like Brayshaw and Petracca elevate their games isn't what it used to be. 

Weideman was always an unknown and doesn't look as likely as he did at the end of last season.

You said in an earlier post that our list management had been good, it's been average at best. We had valuable assets so of course we will get better, but we certainly have not maximized what we had. This is evident by someone like Dunkley or Corey Wagner playing senior football. 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, Watts the matter said:

But part of the issue is Hibberd and Jetta look like they are declining rapidly and will never be as good as the once were. Jones also. 

Lewis is finished now. The only players who have actually come close to improving are Salem, Frost and Hunt.

The hope that players like Brayshaw and Petracca elevate their games isn't what it used to be. 

Weideman was always an unknown and doesn't look as likely as he did at the end of last season.

You said in an earlier post that our list management had been good, it's been average at best. We had valuable assets so of course we will get better, but we certainly have not maximized what we had. This is evident by someone like Dunkley or Corey Wagner playing senior football. 

I see your points, but a little harsh on Nev.  He's two games back from a significant injury.  He deserves a little more time before we write him off.

Hibbo has been... okay.  He isn't the Hibberd of 2017 but it's not as if he's a liability.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I want to follow up my post above by looking at a predicted 'Round 1' side from March 10 that was chosen by @Clint Bizkit.  Here is the side that would be, in his opinion, our starting 22:

FB: Jetta May Hibberd

HB: Lewis Frost Salem

Centre: Brayshaw Oliver Jones

HF: Petracca Weideman Fritsch

FF: Melksham T. McDonald vandenBerg

Foll: Gawn Viney Harmes

Int: Hunt J. Smith Stretch Spargo

This team, from what I can gather, factors in the fact that Hannan wouldn't be ready for Round One.  He is one guy who was instrumental in our finals run who has struggled since getting back on the park.  We've missed him this year.

Of the back line - May and Jetta, as well as Jake Lever, have missed large chunks of the season.  They're our three best defenders.  Lewis, who was borderline best 22, has been injured and in and out of the side.  Frost and Salem have had good seasons while Hibberd has been just okay.

The forward line is where it gets worse.   Vanders, another who was an important cog in our finals, hasn't played a game.  Melksham has missed large chunks of time.  T Mac had off season surgery and took forever to get on the park.  Even Joel Smith, who is on the interchange, hasn't played a single game for the season.  Fritsch has been handy, but has spent more time back than forward, while Spargo has had second year blues, and has had them hard.  Trac has been the shining light, while Hunt has been good.  Weideman, another kid, has struggled big time.

Our midfield has been a disappointment, but all of them had off season surgery and took time to get going.  They are still working on, and struggling at, the two way aspect of the game.  Oliver and Harmes have been good for most of the season, but Gus is waaaay off the mark.

Put it all together and you get what we have now.

Also, the injuries have forced us to play both Wagners, Oscar Mac, Preuss, ANB, Tom Sparrow, Dunkley and others when they're either not ready for regular AFL footy or just not up to it.  Just look at the makeshift forward line we put out there last weekend.  We did well to get as close as we did.

Still doesn't excuse going from a prelim to second last in a single season. 

Not even close. 

[Pennant St Dee 11,241]

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

The same people get [censored] off when posters say it's all 186 or the 87 prelim, without even for a second explaining how those events are causing the current problem. Even your sentence of "history repeats. Culture lingers" doesn't explain how what the club did in 1987 or 2011 is impacting on what's going on right now. 

Until this year we had five consecutive years of improvement in a W-L sense. You started a thread about the embarrassing records we were setting in the 2007-2013 period and we knocked almost all of them off. We made finals, we won two of them, we cracked 50,000 members.

Then 2019 happened, and it has been a disaster on almost every front.

But 2019 on its own is not enough evidence for me to think we've "regressed" to a point that connects the 2019 MFC to the 2011 MFC, for example. 

There are well documented and recent examples of clubs building, hitting their straps, but then taking a step or two back (Geelong 2006, Richmond 2016. Even Hawthorn 2009 and the Dogs 2017-18, although it mattered a lot less for them given their early flag wins). 

I don't agree with anyone who says we're a lock to be good again in 2020. But for the same reason (it's impossible to say until we hit 2020 and see what happens), I don't agree with people who say we're back to square one or that this year has seen us regress back to the "old MFC". 

Great post TU

Well measured and pretty accurate assessment 

[binman 37,739]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I see your points, but a little harsh on Nev.  He's two games back from a significant injury.  He deserves a little more time before we write him off.

Hibbo has been... okay.  He isn't the Hibberd of 2017 but it's not as if he's a liability.

Hibbo broke his collarbone, came back and had to go out again because there was an issue with the plate they put in. So like many other key players he has been hit hard by injury and/or interrupted preseasons. 

That said he has lost pace , which is a worry and as you say is not the player he was in 2017, which by the way was was his career high water mark (and it is worth remembering we didn't have to pay too much for him). 

[Lucifers Hero 36,983]

11 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I want to follow up my post above by looking at a predicted 'Round 1' side from March 10 that was chosen by @Clint Bizkit.  Here is the side that would be, in his opinion, our starting 22:

FB: Jetta May Hibberd

HB: Lewis Frost Salem

Centre: Brayshaw Oliver Jones

HF: Petracca Weideman Fritsch

FF: Melksham T. McDonald vandenBerg

Foll: Gawn Viney Harmes

Int: Hunt J. Smith Stretch Spargo

This team, from what I can gather, factors in the fact that Hannan wouldn't be ready for Round One.  He is one guy who was instrumental in our finals run who has struggled since getting back on the park.  We've missed him this year.

Of the back line - May and Jetta, as well as Jake Lever, have missed large chunks of the season.  They're our three best defenders.  Lewis, who was borderline best 22, has been injured and in and out of the side.  Frost and Salem have had good seasons while Hibberd has been just okay.

The forward line is where it gets worse.   Vanders, another who was an important cog in our finals, hasn't played a game.  Melksham has missed large chunks of time.  T Mac had off season surgery and took forever to get on the park.  Even Joel Smith, who is on the interchange, hasn't played a single game for the season.  Fritsch has been handy, but has spent more time back than forward, while Spargo has had second year blues, and has had them hard.  Trac has been the shining light, while Hunt has been good.  Weideman, another kid, has struggled big time.

Our midfield has been a disappointment, but all of them had off season surgery and took time to get going.  They are still working on, and struggling at, the two way aspect of the game.  Oliver and Harmes have been good for most of the season, but Gus is waaaay off the mark.

Put it all together and you get what we have now.

Also, the injuries have forced us to play both Wagners, Oscar Mac, Preuss, ANB, Tom Sparrow, Dunkley and others when they're either not ready for regular AFL footy or just not up to it.  Just look at the makeshift forward line we put out there last weekend.  We did well to get as close as we did.

I don't know how many times I need to write this but Tom McDonald did not have preseason surgery and is not on injury reports.  If he had an 'interrupted preseason' I would like someone to present the info.  If people are thinking his double ankle surgery, it was the previous year ie prior to his sensational 2018 season. 

Yes, he was withdrawn from this year's AFLX apparently with patella soreness and there are mixed reports whether he simply had a cortisone injection or a minor procedure to clean it up.  Either way he played in both JLT games a week or so later, kicking 2 and 1 goal respecively.  So he had a full preseason.  His poor form is not related to the preseason issues.  And his poor form is one of the major reasons we are where we are. 

On a more general note, we know about our preseason and depth woes but surely no one still thinks that is the reason we have fallen from 4th to 17th.  If it was the club would not have beefed up the development resources nor made the line coaching changes.  

Preseason surgery has become the escape clause and people say things like "Put it all together and you get what we have now".  We have been crap for a variety of reasons and to not acknowledge those other reasons is simply head in sand stuff.  Thankfully, the club recognises those other reasons and will fix them.