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It's The Preseason Stupid

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Just now, Sorry kids said:

 

Spot on. You are 100 per cent correct, the coaches are playing a high fitness, bang and crash style. So I will give you the injuries excuse, you can have that, but what then of the coaching tactics.  The other way to look at it is the players who trained lightly or were in rehab pre season should be running better now than those opposition players who slogged through pre season and all the matches so far. Of more concern  is if Smith had kicked instead of passing, Bradshaw had straightened from the flank 30 out and TMac had held a mark we would have likely won.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Oscar at present, isn't up to AFL standard and he's in his fifth year.

The proof is in the pudding, he is not playing. After five years. That doesn't mean he can't be on a list. 

I always stated that he was playing because we had zero quality or depth and clearly, that is the case.

Don't write back, there's no need.

Ok boss

(Ps. By your logic when he does return he will be AFL standard. Pos you continue to confuse fact with opinion. A reminder - because you believe it to be true does not make it fact.

Pps don't write back, there is no need).

Edited by binman
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, binman said:

Really? Only one of 2 things are happening and you are privvy to both. There are no other possible scenarios?

Not useful to take things out of context.

Yes 2, relevant to the question I asked.  

Repeat:  The coaches believe players are fit enough OR the coaches believe players are not fit enough.

One of those has to be correct.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

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5 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

All true but a few other facts:

Coaches got ahead of themselves we are not as good as we think.

Poor planning to lose 3 big forwards - Watts, Pedersen, Hogan without adequate replacements

We are slow - other teams have been recruiting fast outside runners & quick small pressure forwards while we have been picking slow plodding mids

Some players not up to it & need to be moved on

We need better specialist coaches - a forward coach needs to have been a top level forward with lots of experience not a half back flanker who has has done a level 4 accreditation

Our injury management has been woeful 

None of those are facts

They are your opinion. Most people will agree with some of what you write, but it is just opinion.

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1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Suit yourself. I don’t really care

they were hit hard, particularly Meth Coke but they are back in gear now...

Or back on the gear ????

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10 minutes ago, Delusional demon 82 said:

Or back on the gear ????

Remains to be seen DD, Perth is a long long way away....

 

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Another factor to consider is the fact that we are still a very inexperienced side week to week.

Take last week for eg.

Ave games round 14

GC 72.1

Syd 73.9

Melb 76.0

-

Carl 93.5

-

Bris 101

GWS 101

Rich 107.0

Adel 112.0

Haw 119.0

Gee 123.0

WCE 134.0

 

The top 6 teams on the ladder are 6 of the 7 most experienced teams last weekend. Plus Haw who are looking at a massive drop off IMO

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12 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Not useful to take things out of context.

Yes 2, relevant to the question I asked.  

Repeat:  The coaches believe players are fit enough OR the coaches believe are not fit enough.

One of those has to be correct.

Not really. The answer lies somewhere nuanced in between.

Some are fit and have been all season (Gawn, Gus, Hunt, Salem) while others are the opposite (Preuss, Omac, Tmac). Some began fit but through injury are now struggling (JKH, Garlett). Others began the season lacking fitness but are now getting there there (May, Oliver, Harmes, Trac). While some haven't got on the park (AVB, J Smith, Lever minus 1 game)

'Gotcha' questions fail to acknowledge that very little in football is black and white, apart from the end score. (queue the capt obvious comments about that....)

However, it's no coincidence that our better players this season generally had uninterrupted preseasons.

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1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

What you say has some merit, but we are not the first team to play a Final Series and then send players to hospital. 

Meth Coke and The Filth were also hit hard. They dealt with it and sorted out a plan B, whilst we have not  

 

This is i true but we were playing elimination finals well  before the finals... there would have been players pushing themselves hard, collingwood and wce were already finals bound half way through the year. If players were carrying injuries then it would have a  impact. This would have especially impacted heavily on pre season conditioning. Lets say Tom McDonald always won the time trials. I cannot remember what his results were last year.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Not useful to take things out of context.

Yes 2, relevant to the question I asked.  

Repeat:  The coaches believe players are fit enough OR the coaches believe players are not fit enough.

One of those has to be correct.

How about this.

Coaches know to the nth degree players current capacity due to all the metrics they have - and  will not waiver from the game style as they understand that the players in 2019 because of fitness/injury/preason cannot actually polish off the game style. BUT rather than revert to another game style for the sake of one year- understand the bigger picture of refinement of numerous seasons.

It is US supporters who take things out of context - whom look at things in one year cycles, or get emotional over things in an even shorter amount of time particularly when we are losing, and lose sight of the bigger picture.

 

Edited by Engorged Onion
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1 minute ago, Moonshadow said:

Not really. The answer lies somewhere nuanced in between.

Some are fit and have been all season (Gawn, Gus, Hunt, Salem) while others are the opposite (Preuss, Omac, Tmac). Some began fit but through injury are now struggling (JKH, Garlett). Others began the season lacking fitness but are now getting there there (May, Oliver, Harmes, Trac). While some haven't got on the park (AVB, J Smith, Lever minus 1 game)

'Gotcha' questions fail to acknowledge that very little in football is black and white, apart from the end score. (queue the capt obvious comments about that....)

However, it's no coincidence that our better players this season generally had uninterrupted preseasons.

Especially where the difference between top and bottom is not as large as people think.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Accepting the preseason/surgery/injury/fitness issues, I have one simple question:  Why has the coach persisted with a ballistic, fast brand of contested football that requires going flat out for 4 qtrs and in his words 'we the easiest to score against'? 

One of two answers: 

1. Coaches believe players are not fit enough to play the ballistic brand but are too stupid/stubborn to adjust the brand to what player fitness allows. 

OR

2. Coaches believe players are fit enough and there are other reasons for non-performance

Take your pick.  Either or.

#stoptheexcuses

Surely we want to play the same game plan no matter the team? So maybe there have been times where the coaches might have known the players aren't fit enough but completely changing the game plan would be much more detrimental, both to that game and long term?

Edited by Red and Blue realist
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45 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Not useful to take things out of context.

Yes 2, relevant to the question I asked.  

Repeat:  The coaches believe players are fit enough OR the coaches believe players are not fit enough.

One of those has to be correct.

No they don't.

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54 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Accepting the preseason/surgery/injury/fitness issues, I have one simple question:  Why has the coach persisted with a ballistic, fast brand of contested football that requires going flat out for 4 qtrs and in his words 'we the easiest to score against'? 

One of two answers: 

1. Coaches believe players are not fit enough to play the ballistic brand but are too stupid/stubborn to adjust the brand to what player fitness allows. 

OR

2. Coaches believe players are fit enough and there are other reasons for non-performance

Take your pick.  Either or.

#stoptheexcuses

Yep, absolutely nailed it!

I think it might have been prior to last season (maybe the one before?), but I remember the club saying that they would be playing the fittest players to start the season. From there, we saw Maynard etc. playing because they were ready to go more than others. Whilst it seemed strange to see certain players picked early, I could buy it because it was a justified approach.

What I'm most annoyed about is that the football department knew the players weren't fit enough for such a manic gamestyle, yet persisted with it anyway. Why didn't they adjust things to try and eek out a couple of good results early in the season instead of setting the team up to fail? Maybe go very defensive and less taxing. Then, as players regained health and fitness they could have gradually opened the gameplan up to where they see it being successful. Instead, supporters have heard the same thing each and every week - a doubling down of a style that was exposed in the Prelim, and has been destroyed since. 

 

If things aren't working because the gameplan is wrong, that's an indictment on the football department for not adjusting during the preseason. If they aren't working because the players simply aren't physically capable of adhering to it, that's also an indictment on the football department for not having adjusted once this knowledge was clear.

It is the preseason - A completely botched preseason

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It seems that most are treating this season's malaise as a consequence of one off 2019 problem such as a poor pre-season, injuries and an inexperienced list. Most of the deficiencies issues were also evident in 2018 but we somehow maked them due to good fortune, surprise factor and a stable list.

Teams like toiges and doggies had similar issues but still managed to win premierships by adapting and adopting a better game plan based on their respective strengths and personnel.

So should we.

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32 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Not really. The answer lies somewhere nuanced in between.

Some are fit and have been all season (Gawn, Gus, Hunt, Salem) while others are the opposite (Preuss, Omac, Tmac). Some began fit but through injury are now struggling (JKH, Garlett). Others began the season lacking fitness but are now getting there there (May, Oliver, Harmes, Trac). While some haven't got on the park (AVB, J Smith, Lever minus 1 game)

'Gotcha' questions fail to acknowledge that very little in football is black and white, apart from the end score. (queue the capt obvious comments about that....)

However, it's no coincidence that our better players this season generally had uninterrupted preseasons.

And another potential oprion is that goody is agnostic about injuries as they relate to our game plan.

He may well have determined our game plan is the one that will achieve the ultimate reward, that he has complete faith in it, will stay the course and sees no value trying on another this year and wasting time on other game plans he does not believe in.

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1 hour ago, Sorry kids said:

Spot on. You are 100 per cent correct, the coaches are playing a high fitness, bang and crash style. So I will give you the injuries excuse, you can have that, but what then of the coaching tactics.

Our 2019 is dead as most here agree.  And most are advocating that we plan for next season now.

So why wouldn't we practice our game plan for next season now with a team as close as we can to the one we think will play next season?  IMO it's why Hannan, Lever and others have played when prima facie they haven't really been ready.

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1 minute ago, Baghdad Bob said:

So why wouldn't we practice our game plan for next season now with a team as close as we can to the one we think will play next season

Heaven help us if what we are now seeing is the gameplan

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Snoopy said:

In an effort to move past the teeth gnashing and knee jerk reactions to this year's disappointments it's time to acknowledge that the real reason probably started a few days after the loss to WCE in the Preliminary Final last year when something like 17 players were scheduled for end of season operations to fix ankles, shoulders, hips, knees and heavens knows what else. This cruelled our preseason which most recognize is the foundation stone of strong on field performances.  Fitness is a non negotiable in footy and we just don't have it.

It was reported here that Craig Jennings (I think) said that at one stage in the preseason we had 12 players fit enough to complete the main session indicating that the injuries we had went well beyond those who had operations.  Key players effected included:-

  • Our entire starting midfield had interrupted preseasons - Viney, Harmes and Oliver had operations and Jones and Brayshaw had injuries. If my memory is correct none started with the main group until February and some not until March.
  • Three of our best forwards had interrupted preseasons - Tmac had both ankles operated on, Melk had hammy issues and Trac a knee operation
  • Our best defenders had interrupted preseasons - Jetta a knee, May with his issues and Lever recovering from an ACL.  From memory Hibberd might also have had a operation.

This is a list of the "main crew" who had little or no preseason..  Then there were players like Stretch, Hannan, Oscar Baker and Hore who were also significantly disrupted. 

Through no fault of anyone, unless you want to suggest we send 13 of our Preliminary Final players off for end of season surgery in August, these players lack fitness because of the lack of a proper preseason. I think this lack of fitness underlies the majority of the issues we have faced this year including:-

  • an inability to run out games
  • inability to play 4 quarters
  • basic skill errors - these occur when plays fatigue 
  • a lack of confidence
  • a lack of connection
  • a lack of two way running

Compounding this has been a wretched run of injury in season.  AVB, Smith, May, Melksham, Hibberd and Jetta have been significant losses.  JKH, Stretch, KK and Garlett have added to our issues.

On Champion Data stats we lost 89 games to injury to our best 22 in the first 10 games - 50% more than any other team and this on top of a poor preseason.  You can carry some injuries but there reaches a stage when you lose so many that the game just falls apart because you're playing too many players who are NQR.  We've seen this with Richmond and Collingwood.  Is it any surprise that Geelong and Brisbane are doing surprisingly well.  They've had no injuries of note.  And is it any surprise that Gawn and Salem have performed so well.  To my knowledge they had good preseasons.

The vitriol directed at players, coaches and fitness staff beg the reality of our situation.  Calls to rebuild, change the coach and radically change the game plan ignore core issues that have led to our situation.  Posters are far too keen to find blame rather than find reasons.

I've never been more confident that we've got the building blocks to be very good.  There are some gaps in our list we need to fill and we could well do that in this trade period.

This has been a disappointing year but is not reflective of our Club or the players and staff.

 

 

 

 

So, when we are fresh (1st 12 minutes of the 1st quarter; 1st 7 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters; first 9 minutes of the 3rd), we play premiership footy?  Go join the queue of over-confident MFC supporters.  It is long, and been there for a long time.  

 

Usually injuries are down to luck in a lot of ways.  I don't think it is mostly luck here.  Something stinks to high heaven. Even with Lever, only a few here questioned rushing him back for QB.  This wasn't a medical decision; this was a PR decision, like Watts'' debut.  Gawn this morning, said something along the lines of 'my intent outweighs medical and FD advice'.

We searched for leadership despite making us weaker and slower onfield, yet let Howe and Dunn walk out the door.  We sold the farm in a super-draft for Lever, when we really didn't have to.  Blind Freddy knew we were one-paced and slow, yet drafting speed has been non-existent.  Who are we apparently after now?  Alex Keith?

We have great players with big ticks against their names, but they also have glaring weaknesses.

 

Richmond should be applauded for taking a punt on a rough diamond in Stack.  The culture of the MFC would never do that in a million years.  We recruit people that we would like our daughters to marry, rather than taking a punt on someone that would beg, bleed and fight for you.  Time we started looking elsewhere than the Young Liberals, on and off-field.  The private school mentality that we deserve x, rather than we will fight for y.

 

 

 

Edited by TGR
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1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

 

Welcome.

 

The truth lies somewhere in-between the extremist views on this site, I think you'll find. 

I don't think anyone doubts that off-season injuries and interruptions to preparation have had an impact on our ability to perform at our best and therefore impacted our season. Except maybe @Satyriconhome because he's in constant denial. 

However, I can't fathom the thought that it is only injuries and interrupted prep that is the reason we find ourselves third bottom from the ladder with eight rounds remaining. And anyone who believes it is only injuries has rocks in their head. Seriously.

Worrying trends in our game, the changing of the rules, an inflexible coach playing the same game plan, some complacent young players, etc, etc. There are many factors.

The interrupted pre-seasons to players has only further highlighted the inadequacies that have existed since 2018. That is indisputable.

We got absolutely schooled and smashed in the prelim by West Coast which should have been a wake-up call. Collingwood had done the same to us earlier in 2018 as well as a couple of other sides. The trends throughout last year have carried into this year, fit players or not. If we win contested ball convincingly, we generally win. Allow us to get first hands on and then pressure and harass us, we're in enormous trouble. We only know how to play one way. Not dissimilar to Essendon's 'free flowing and fast paced game'. They're not balanced and neither are we.

Generally, I use this forum as a place to vent frustration like many others. But I don't believe it's all doom and gloom for us. I simply see this year as a massive learning curve for Simon Goodwin and a test for him more than anything else. Like Chris Scott last year, like Buckley and Hardwick after their down years, Goody has an opportunity to recalibrate. List balance, game-style etc. 

I hate saying things like this, but it's the year we had to have imo.

 

Yep, against Port and the Swans last year we lost in exactly the same fashion as pretty much all our games this year. More F50 entries and terrible conversion.

Hawks, Pies and Tigers dismantled us last year but the games against the Swans and Port were more concerning because they were the ones we should have one but didn't finish off the work upfield.

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So, if injuries are to blame, why did we have a midseason internal review that resulted in a coaching structure change?

 

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3 minutes ago, TGR said:

So, when we are fresh (1st 12 minutes of the 1st quarter; 1st 7 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters; first 9 minutes of the 3rd), we play premiership footy?  Go join the queue of over-confident MFC supporters.  It is long, and been there for a long time.  

 

Usually injuries are down to luck in a lot of ways.  I don't think it is mostly luck here.  Something stinks to high heaven. Even with Lever, only a few here questioned rushing him back for QB.  This wasn't a medical decision; this was a PR decision, like Watts'' debut.  Gawn this morning, said something along the lines of 'my intent outweighs medical and FD advice'.

We searched for leadership despite making us weaker and slower onfield, yet let Howe and Dunn walk out the door.  We sold the farm in a super-draft for Lever, when we really didn't have to.  Blind Freddy knew we were one-paced and slow, yet drafting speed has been non-existent.  Who are we apparently after now?  Alex Keith?

We have great players with big ticks against their names, but they also have glaring weaknesses.

 

Richmond should be applauded for taking a punt on a rough diamond in Stack.  The culture of the MFC would never do that in a million years.  We recruit people that we would like our daughters to marry, rather than taking a punt on someone that would beg, bleed and fight for you.  Time we started looking elsewhere than the Young Liberals, on and off-field.  The private school mentality that we deserve x, rather than we will fight for y.

 

 

 

I wouldnt let May, Oliver, Gawn, Preuss, Jones or Viney marry my daughter... 

Marty Hore however...

image.png.40474e0c390727fbd0698843e5a10481.png

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1 hour ago, Grimes Times said:

Another factor to consider is the fact that we are still a very inexperienced side week to week.

Take last week for eg.

Ave games round 14

GC 72.1

Syd 73.9

Melb 76.0

-

Carl 93.5

-

Bris 101

GWS 101

Rich 107.0

Adel 112.0

Haw 119.0

Gee 123.0

WCE 134.0

 

The top 6 teams on the ladder are 6 of the 7 most experienced teams last weekend. Plus Haw who are looking at a massive drop off IMO

True if you have the right players. But do you think getting experience into some of the players out there on the weekend will make a difference. 

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I didn't mean to suggest that the preseason troubles are the only reason, only that the preseason is the main reason and explains much of what has gone wrong.

BECAUSE:  Poor preseason > loss of games > loss of confidence > lots of pressure > skill errors  and on and on.

My post was to balance the rather irrational and ill considered calls for:

  • change the coach - he was exceptional last year and coaches don't change all that much.  And he's a better coach now than he was then.  He's just dealing with a completely different situation.
  • change the game plan - it got us to the Preliminary final last year where 13 of our players needed post season operations.  Are you surprised we got spanked?  I've read here for years that we are always followers but when we have a game plan with a point of difference that was very successful last year everyone wants to change it.  Go figure.
  • change the players - I mean who in their right mind wants to trade Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw etc etc and go to the draft and start all over again in the hope that in 5 years we'll be better. 
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2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

 

 

I hate saying things like this, but it's the year we had to have imo.

 

But we have had this year for most of the 21st century, barring last year and a couple under Neale.

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    The feeling when turning up to the MCG on a Saturday night to play a top four side in Richmond, while the Melbourne sits cemented in close proximity to the bottom of the table is like attending the Colosseum in Ancient Roman times. The expectation is that a bloodbath is about to occur. There are 100,000 Richmond members and 50,000 Melbourne members, and despite the fact that it turned out to be a wet night after half-time, a crowd of only 37K bothered to turn up. That should never have happ

    Demonland
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