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Bartlett, Pert, et al

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1 minute ago, rjay said:

I'm not ok with that.

We need an external person to come in and review everything that has happened this year.

Pert is part of the club now and needs to also come under review even though he has only been here for just the year.

It has been a disappointing year, we need to look at everything.

We can't get half way through next year and realise we've made mistakes.

We need to shake out any problem areas asap and get on with it.

 

Everything must be on the table. 

This year is more than a disappointment, it has been a plummet from a great height,  from Preliminary Final day last year

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, rjay said:

I'm not ok with that.

We need an external person to come in and review everything that has happened this year.

Pert is part of the club now and needs to also come under review even though he has only been here for just the year.

It has been a disappointing year, we need to look at everything.

We can't get half way through next year and realise we've made mistakes.

We need to shake out any problem areas asap and get on with it.

Blind freddy can see what is wrong:

  • Our football department structure does not have clean lines of reporting.
  • We do not have someone like a Neil Balme who has oversight of Mahoney, Goodwin and Viney to challenge them, defend them and hold them accountable.  It has all become quite cosy.  The last person in that role was Neil Craig.  At the moment that role is being performed by Pert.  It isn't his job.
  • We do not a Football Director - the last one being Greg Healy.  At the moment Bartlett is doing that role.  It isn't his job
  • There is no-one to mentor Goodwin.  No, it is not McCartney.  The last person in that role was Neil Craig.  Now there is no-one in that job.  Two weeks ago Mahoney said Goodwin has some very good external mentors.  In my book that is not enough.  We need someone internally who mentors Goodwin in all aspects of game plan, list changes, team selection etc and who has some 'skin in the game' and at the end of the day shares the accountability with him. 
  • Mahoney, Goodwin, and assistant coaches are very inexperience in the roles they have been given.  A diversity of experience and 'bad weather' sailing is required to make an effective team.
  • Assess qualifications and experience of people and the positions they hold.

That is just the off-field stuff.  I could go on but you get my drift.  Doubt an external person is going to add much more to that list. 

Posters will tear that list apart and make selective comments.  But in totality it is pretty close to the mark.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Blind freddy can see what is wrong:

  • Our football department structure does not have clean lines of reporting.
  • We do not have someone like a Neil Balme who has oversight of Mahoney, Goodwin and Viney to challenge them, defend them and hold them accountable.  It has all become quite cosy.  The last person in that role was Neil Craig.  At the moment that role is being performed by Pert.  It isn't his job.
  • We do not a Football Director - the last one being Greg Healy.  At the moment Bartlett is doing that job.  It isn't his job. 
  • There is no-one to mentor Goodwin.  No, it is not McCartney.  Two weeks ago Mahoney said Goodwin has some very good external mentors.  In my book that is not enough.  We need someone who mentors Goodwin in all aspects of game plan, list changes, team selection etc and who at the end of the day shares the accountability with him. 
  • Mahoney, Goodwin, and assistant coaches are very inexperience in the roles they have been given.  A diversity of experience and 'bad weather' sailing is required to make an effective team.

That is just the off-field stuff.  I could go on but you get my drift.  Doubt an external person is going to add much more to that list. 

Posters will tear that list apart and make selective comments.  But in totality it is pretty close to the mark.

But it has nothing to do with player skill levels and they are below VFL standards. 

Watch this clip and particularly what is highlighted. 

Club Leadership is nowhere. 

https://youtu.be/SJbgBDz-gkY

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But it has nothing to do with player skill levels and they are below VFL standards. 

Watch this clip and particularly what is highlighted. 

Club Leadership is nowhere. 

https://youtu.be/SJbgBDz-gkY

I was responding to a need for an external review and my points related to 'just the off-field stuff' and not about player skill levels.

Anyway, get the right structure and the right and experienced people in those positions and the down the line things like skills and tactics can be addressed.  Otherwise it is cart before the horse.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

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1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I was responding to a need for an external review not about player skill levels.

Get the right structure and the right and experienced people in those positions and the down the line things like skills and tactics can be addressed.  Otherwise it is cart before the horse.

No. It’s all connected.

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3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Blind freddy can see what is wrong:

  • Our football department structure does not have clean lines of reporting.
  • We do not have someone like a Neil Balme who has oversight of Mahoney, Goodwin and Viney to challenge them, defend them and hold them accountable.  It has all become quite cosy.  The last person in that role was Neil Craig.  At the moment that role is being performed by Pert.  It isn't his job.
  • We do not a Football Director - the last one being Greg Healy.  At the moment Bartlett is doing that job.  It isn't his job. 

Not to doubt what you're saying in these points, but I'm wondering where you gathered this information? Essentially you are making the same assertion three times here in regards to governance.

As external people, we would not know anything about "clean lines of reporting". Looking at the business structure it seems pretty straight ahead in that regard.

Josh Mahoney is GM of football and Daniel McPherson is Manager of football operations. Are you saying they are not doing those jobs effectively or are you saying the club's structure is incorrect according to your information?

From what I have heard, Pert is staying well clear of being too involved in the football operations side, so where did you hear he was now a senior coach mentor type of operator? Again, not saying you're wrong, but it directly contradicts what I have heard.

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Not to doubt what you're saying in these points.  Thank you.  but I'm wondering where you gathered this information? Essentially you are making the same assertion three times here in regards to governance.  imv there is a difference between 'governance'; a Board role and 'management'; operational roleComments are based on evaluating what other clubs have, what we had in the past that worked, on a club response to an email asking who reports to who and info on club website.

As external people, we would not know anything about "clean lines of reporting". Looking at the business structure it seems pretty straight ahead in that regard.  See comment above.  I worked extensively as an external consultant to government and corporates evaluating their organisation structures and reporting relationships.  Some folks may not give that much credence but that is ok.

Josh Mahoney is GM of football and Daniel McPherson is Manager of football operations. Are you saying they are not doing those jobs effectively or are you saying the club's structure is incorrect according to your information?  The club's structure is less than optimum.

From what I have heard, Pert is staying well clear of being too involved in the football operations side, so where did you hear he was now a senior coach mentor type of operator? Again, not saying you're wrong, but it directly contradicts what I have heard.  Post # 14 the thread below outlines Pert's activities re football involvement.  I don't think there is anything sinister in it.  Quite the opposite.  Perfectly natural for a new CEO to get the lay of the land.  It is also why I agree with Bartlett that we don't need a formal external review and Pert iswell placed to do it.

My responses are in your post. 

I might just reiterate that my post was responding to rjay on why I thought we don't need a formal external review. 

So I might leave this thread at that as I do not want to sidetrack the discussion to what I think.  More important to focus on what the club/Bartlett thinks.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

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1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Was it the right call though? 

Malthouse would argue that his tenure was destabilised and usurped while on the cusp of back to back flags and shot down in the midst of what might’ve become an even longer premiership window than that.

Buckley has won nothing yet.

Mick may be a self-obsessed SOB but that “crackpot” has three flags in his trophy cabinet. N.Buckley has 0.

Apologies, he's a slightly more decorated, self obsessed crackpot.

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10 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

My responses are in your post. 

I might just reiterate that my post was responding to rjay on why I thought we don't need a formal external review. 

So I might leave this thread at that as I do not want to sidetrack the discussion to what I think.  More important to focus on what the club/Bartlett thinks.

Thanks LH appreciate the in-depth reply.

With your experience and knowledge what would be your key recommendations as far as what our structure should be? I'm a novice in that particular area, so to me the MFC structure seems the same as most clubs.

Given some of the roles you mentioned are technically filled, should the people in those roles be replaced?

For the record, I'm in total agreeance that an external review is not needed at this stage and that the assessments already going on internally are enough for now.

 

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2 hours ago, Captain_Jack said:

Whether you like Pert or not, he has a record of both action and inaction.

Moved Malthouse on when it was the unpopular decision, proved to be the correct call, genuine crackpot that butchered his next coaching job. 

Stuck with Buckley when it was even less popular (partly because of the previous Malthouse decision).

Both calls while against the grain and unpopular at the time, were absolutely the right calls, let's give the bloke a little more than 5 minutes to prove his worth, or not.

keep Malthouse and they win another premiership.

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13 hours ago, praha said:

lol do you seriously believe the reason Preuss isn't selectes, is for the sake of list management? 

Nothing would suprise me Praha, absolutely nothing.

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8 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Blind freddy can see what is wrong:

  • Our football department structure does not have clean lines of reporting.
  • We do not have someone like a Neil Balme who has oversight of Mahoney, Goodwin and Viney to challenge them, defend them and hold them accountable.  It has all become quite cosy.  The last person in that role was Neil Craig.  At the moment that role is being performed by Pert.  It isn't his job.
  • We do not a Football Director - the last one being Greg Healy.  At the moment Bartlett is doing that role.  It isn't his job
  • There is no-one to mentor Goodwin.  No, it is not McCartney.  The last person in that role was Neil Craig.  Now there is no-one in that job.  Two weeks ago Mahoney said Goodwin has some very good external mentors.  In my book that is not enough.  We need someone internally who mentors Goodwin in all aspects of game plan, list changes, team selection etc and who has some 'skin in the game' and at the end of the day shares the accountability with him. 
  • Mahoney, Goodwin, and assistant coaches are very inexperience in the roles they have been given.  A diversity of experience and 'bad weather' sailing is required to make an effective team.
  • Assess qualifications and experience of people and the positions they hold.

That is just the off-field stuff.  I could go on but you get my drift.  Doubt an external person is going to add much more to that list. 

Posters will tear that list apart and make selective comments.  But in totality it is pretty close to the mark.

I largely agree although I've always thought the role of Footy Director is overplayed. Why can Bartlett not be President and Football Director? He's a former player, he's on the board. 

I'd like to have a Balme but a Balme can't have oversight over Mahoney. If you have a Mahoney you have a Mahoney. Do we really know Viney's role? I thought they promoted a recruiter to List Manager and moved Viney to a different broader role somewhat like Craig's.

Why aren't McCartney, Rawlings, Viney and Jennings the internal mentors that Goodwin needs? That's a lot of football experience.

I think there's room for more experience in the coaching and management set up but I think whatever shortcomings we have in that area are dwarfed by the failures of the medical/fitness department.

 

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9 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But it has nothing to do with player skill levels and they are below VFL standards. 

Watch this clip and particularly what is highlighted. 

Club Leadership is nowhere. 

https://youtu.be/SJbgBDz-gkY

I don't agree with your assessment at all. These men are not alchemists. They are dealing with a fluid situation dependent on who is available, the injury toll and the state of repair of the troops who actually make the battlefield. The bottom line is Melbourne went into this season underdone and undermanned because of the 2018 finals and the larger than normal bout of postseason ops and surgeries. They also had a much tougher draw than last year and, as Jones points out, they are aware of their shortcomings and where they need to improve. Posters like you - and I don't want to be disparaging or disrespectful because it's not the purpose of my reply -  imagine that coaches, leaders, CEOS and List managers and recruiting managers and Physios and honchos like Misson are to blame for everything. I really fail to understand how showering blame on the Admin and coaching staff solves anything.

I really find it difficult to understand the mindset of posters who just denigrate, even harder to understand posters who believe Pert is somehow involved in our scheisenhaus season.

But who am I?? Indeed, what would I know, after all.....( Just ask my wife. She'll answer that rhetorical question very succinctly, as only Polish women can.)

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This thread should be retitled 'the outraged looking for scapegoats'

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On 6/11/2019 at 8:14 PM, praha said:

Definitely. 

Having worked in the corporate world including the pro sport world (but not AFL) for my entire adult career, rarely do board members, execs and VPs venture down to see how the grunts are. They send their little gophers -- or "operational managers" -- to check on things. 

I've worked extensively in the service area and have never once seen the head/vp/director of a service department actually come and see the operational elements of the frontline. They have managers and team leaders for that.

That a board member even needs to go down to check out the football department is extremely worrying.

Goodwin and the entire department is on notice. Make no mistake.

I have to disagree on this one.

John Trotter hasn't missed a game in years and David Thurin is as passionate a board member as you can get. You will see them in the background of every game irrespective of the result. The usual reporting lines exist and the board gets monthly updates. These 2 are close to everything, know the players and the line coaches and get to training. They may not be officially checking out but they are engaged in the process and very hands on with the operation without getting involved or imposing themselves

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29 minutes ago, Older demon said:

I have to disagree on this one.

John Trotter hasn't missed a game in years and David Thurin is as passionate a board member as you can get. You will see them in the background of every game irrespective of the result. The usual reporting lines exist and the board gets monthly updates. These 2 are close to everything, know the players and the line coaches and get to training. They may not be officially checking out but they are engaged in the process and very hands on with the operation without getting involved or imposing themselves

I still don't understand what any of this has got to do wid da bored members, da Ceos, or, for dat matter, da coaches. It's da players who keep fumbeling and kicking to the opposition and kicking bums instead of goals...

Anyway, I weally tink, it's da bloody UMPIRES!!!!!AND GILL. AND EDDIE, AND DAT COMMENTATOR BT, AND LET ME TINK......

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1 hour ago, dieter said:

I don't agree with your assessment at all. These men are not alchemists. They are dealing with a fluid situation dependent on who is available, the injury toll and the state of repair of the troops who actually make the battlefield. The bottom line is Melbourne went into this season underdone and undermanned because of the 2018 finals and the larger than normal bout of postseason ops and surgeries. They also had a much tougher draw than last year and, as Jones points out, they are aware of their shortcomings and where they need to improve. Posters like you - and I don't want to be disparaging or disrespectful because it's not the purpose of my reply -  imagine that coaches, leaders, CEOS and List managers and recruiting managers and Physios and honchos like Misson are to blame for everything. I really fail to understand how showering blame on the Admin and coaching staff solves anything.

I really find it difficult to understand the mindset of posters who just denigrate, even harder to understand posters who believe Pert is somehow involved in our scheisenhaus season.

But who am I?? Indeed, what would I know, after all.....( Just ask my wife. She'll answer that rhetorical question very succinctly, as only Polish women can.)

Just watch the examples of play. That has nothing to do with injuries. It’s basic football skills. Where are they???

Why does this Club always fall over, when others just sort out their problems and get the job done??

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9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Just watch the examples of play. That has nothing to do with injuries. It’s basic football skills. Where are they???

Why does this Club always fall over, when others just sort out their problems and get the job done??

Not sure about how 'others' sort out their problems. Look at the Bulldogs, the Tigers, etc. If it was just 'football skills' how do you account for the positive win loss ratio in 2017 and 2018? It's more or less the same list.

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2 hours ago, dieter said:

Not sure about how 'others' sort out their problems. Look at the Bulldogs, the Tigers, etc. If it was just 'football skills' how do you account for the positive win loss ratio in 2017 and 2018? It's more or less the same list.

I am talking about NOW! Last year is irrelevant 

Where have the basic football skills gone of this entire side, bar 2-3 players?

The skills were very ordinary in Round 1 2019 and in Round 12 nothing has improved

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7 hours ago, Older demon said:

I have to disagree on this one.

John Trotter hasn't missed a game in years and David Thurin is as passionate a board member as you can get. You will see them in the background of every game irrespective of the result. The usual reporting lines exist and the board gets monthly updates. These 2 are close to everything, know the players and the line coaches and get to training. They may not be officially checking out but they are engaged in the process and very hands on with the operation without getting involved or imposing themselves

attending games and being "around" has nothing to do with day-to-day functioning. Game day makes up maybe 20% of the entire process. Thurin for example might be in the rooms during the cool down but he's not going to question the process is he? I see their involvement as being of mutual support. But they're not going to be asking for/demanding specific breakdowns.

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1 hour ago, Neitz Blitz said:

You guys are a joke. The reason we never have success and players like Hogsn leave. NEGATIVE tossers

Ah no it’s because we can’t kick, handball or mark the pill mate. If we can ever fix that we are off and running. 

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2 hours ago, Neitz Blitz said:

You guys are a joke. The reason we never have success and players like Hogsn leave. NEGATIVE tossers

Do you really think that negative supporters effect outcomes? Do you think Hogan will not cop it from Freo supporters? You probably think your lucky underwear works, which is obviously BS because I alone have the lucky red socks.  

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