Post Game: Rd 5 v St. Kilda

[Cam Schwab's Whiteboard 209]

1-5 in the last 6 games, giving up an average of 6 goals more than the opposition. During that time we're also 5-1 in Inside 50s, averaging +6 per match.

It's the gameplan people! Yet the coach wants the team to hunt the ball more - i.e. more of the same.

This is diabolical, and the Club is in denial.

[Winners at last 4,685]

38 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Defence

I agree. We seem to have moved a long, long way from the hard edged defensive mindset Roos instilled during his time here. Our backline is all over the shop, and our defensive pressure generally is super poor.

Fitness

We look terribly slow and unfit. I had thought Misson was an elite fitness guy, but we seem to have heaps of injuries, many of which are not impact injuries - they seem to be soft tissue and running related. Anyone have the inside scoop here? Why are we so off the pace all of a sudden?

Skills

We simply cannot hit a target anymore. Who’s in charge of skills at the moment?

Forward line

I should know this but who’s our forward line coach? So many inside 50s, yet (Melksham aside) we never look like scoring. It’s super frustrating to watch.

So, apart from those minor matters, we'll looking OK?? 

[Cards13 9,117]

5 minutes ago, Cam Schwab's Whiteboard said:

1-5 in the last 6 games, giving up an average of 6 goals more than the opposition. During that time we're also 5-1 in Inside 50s, averaging +6 per match.

It's the gameplan people! Yet the coach wants the team to hunt the ball more - i.e. more of the same.

This is diabolical, and the Club is in denial.

Imagine if we had a fwd or 2 who could take a contested mark?! Or a couple of fwds who can crumb from a contested marking situation?!

Pa your handle makes me want to vomit! Kudos. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,398]

9 hours ago, Cam Schwab's Whiteboard said:

Did Roos elaborate on what that might be? Seems to me that the players are doing what they're supposed to, but it's not working.

Midfielders down hill skiing is probably part of it

[pitmaster 3,052]

Rubbish to claim they weren't trying. Key problem was conversion.

We created opportunities - 55 i50s to 47 - had the same number of scoring shots but in the first half of the 2nd term when we should have built scoreboard pressure we added 1 goal 2 points. Misses like Petracca's and Melksham's - both out on the full from 40 metres almost directly in front kill you.

We had no-one at the fall of the ball - needed Garlett, or maybe Lockhart for ground level pace - and bombed long while they had two and three extras behind the contest: we played dumb.

Finally, skill errors going inside 50, by foot and hand, absolute fundamentals, were butchered. Spargo, TMac take a bow.

 

[pitmaster 3,052]

9 hours ago, demonique said:

I would say that the addition of Brett Ratten to the Saints coaching panel has worked wonders for them.

He was a line coach for us back in 2011 I think and we should have got him t succeed Paul  Roos 

Ratten did a great job with our mids. Wish we still had him.

[Wells 11 4,650]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Midfielders down hill skiing is probably part of it

It’s not what I’m seeing. Brayshaw, Oliver, Viney, hannon, Gawn are all still working hard and , while not at their peak, are still operating well. They’re always our best players. It’s not the mids imo. 

We are just so easily sliced open when opposition gets a free ball and, when WE do, it’s a race to see who can give it bk fastest! Either that or a competition between tmac, weird  to see who can run under the ball or look the most ineffectual. Dead heat so far... Spargo challenging tho. There’s just no easy, systematic entries we’re having this year at all.  I concur with the many previous. it’s the structure we’re playing with ...... the game plan. 

Its on the coach now. For the first time in his career he’s got to face this down. His plan have clearly fallen apart.lets see what he’s got.

[buck_nekkid 5,458]

7 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

It’s not what I’m seeing. Brayshaw, Oliver, Viney, hannon, Gawn are all still working hard and , while not at their peak, are still operating well. They’re always our best players. It’s not the mids imo. 

We are just so easily sliced open when opposition gets a free ball and, when WE do, it’s a race to see who can give it bk fastest! Either that or a competition between tmac, weird  to see who can run under the ball or look the most ineffectual. Dead heat so far... Spargo challenging tho. There’s just no easy, systematic entries we’re having this year at all.  I concur with the many previous. it’s the structure we’re playing with ...... the game plan. 

Its on the coach now. For the first time in his career he’s got to face this down. His plan have clearly fallen apart.lets see what he’s got.

Hannan hasn’t been in this year....

[pitmaster 3,052]

7 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

Hannan hasn’t been in this year....

He probably meant Harmes. Hannan is gravely missed.

Edited April 20, 2019 by pitmaster

[BenJamin on Deesy St 792]

Beaten by our own turnovers and their circle work. Don’t know which is more disappointing - probably the latter as it points to a lack of (i) awareness, (ii) preparedness to run and cover and (iii) fitness.

[buck_nekkid 5,458]

So, some rational (?) thought:

1.  Our high press defence works well when everyone from half forward to half back works hard and removes space and options.  We give the opposition the first or second kick so that we are set up to stop it in the back half of the centre square and repel it back forward.  We are simply not running hard enough to the right places, we are not fast enough and we are losing contested ball and groundball gets.

2.  Our midfield has no defensive strategy.  We seem to believe that we will win every set-up clearance (ball up/ball in) and so set up for offence, with no defensive elements at stoppages.  When the opposition do win, they burst away and we are left in the wrong positions to influence the game.  This is fine when we are smashing it, but we seem to be barely halving these moments.  Also shows up when there is a ball in 30 m from goal.  You just know the opposition will score.  Happens week in, week out.

3.  We are flat track bullies.  Put some physical pressure on our midfielders, and they wilt.  Get in their faces, push and harass them, and they drop off their game, and give up stupid ‘tough guy’ free kicks.

4.  The skills across the park are atrocious.  TMAc cannot mark (Goodwin), and we have seen the other glaring problems.  Preuss has been a revelation (at least first quarters), but our entire system relies on skills and we are so far down on this it is not funny.

5.  Footspeed.  Not one chase down tackle.  Not one closing speed pressure on the ball carrier (nearly one, but not quite).  Is this because we have recruited ‘contest beasts’ or is something else going on?  Is it half hearted efforts?  The opposition run around and past us all the time.

6.  Confidence. Obviously we have zero confidence at the minute.  They mark, and stop.  Some of the entry into 50 was disgusting.  Howe can we continuously try to pass off to people in worse positions (and fail miserably).  Trac’s handball to no-one.  Spargo’s kicks directly to opposition players on their own, on our 50.  The lack of run and spread when we tried to switch play was sad.  They would switch, and upfield were a bunch of joggers.  No one busting a gut for anyone else.

7.  Which half?  We are supposed to be a forward half team, but we cannot keep it in our half, or play in theirs.

8.  Forward craft.  When it does get inside 50, the Saints ran it out unopposed over and over.  We could not mark, crumb, hustle, tackle, corral, or sometimes kick simple goals (Trac!).  At one stage, we were 30% effficiency inside 50 versus the saints 70%.  

If Goodwin wants better connection, then he should switch his phone to Telstra.  We have some serious issues that need fixing that are more than just ‘connection’.  They are fixable, but we are looking at an ugly start to the year, maybe the full first half.  With AVB, Hannan, May and Lever we should be better.  With TMAc, Weid back (MIA) we will be better.  

Buckle up, we are in for a long year.

[waynewussell 4,081]

One thing we all agree with, we must change direction from here! I agree with a hell of a lot of what others have said, but are now contemplating what an immediate change of direction will look like. We are not likely to find relief from those exiting the injury list anytime soon, so I'm afraid we will be limited to those names that can still stand up. Here are my suggestions... I don't expect the match committee to be brave enough to try them... they remain bunkered down!

• Weideman to the backline in a direct swap forward with Fritsch
• Garlett in / Spargo out
• Billy in / C Wagner out
• Hunt to the wing
• T Smith in / J Wagner out
• Lewis plays back / Salem plays mid
• Jones goes back to inside mid / Brayshaw spends time at half-forward
• Petracca spends time in centre square
• Oliver instructed to kick 2/3, handball 1/3
• Harmes plays mid/not tagging

Dump the zoning and play 1 on 1 as soon as the oppo scores 4 unanswered goals... stay 1 0n 1 as long as it takes to right the ship!

[chook fowler 18,173]

Wonder if they will be sitting in a truth circle holding hands this week. FMD.

[Wells 11 4,650]

9 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

One thing we all agree with, we must change direction from here! I agree with a hell of a lot of what others have said, but are now contemplating what an immediate change of direction will look like. We are not likely to find relief from those exiting the injury list anytime soon, so I'm afraid we will be limited to those names that can still stand up. Here are my suggestions... I don't expect the match committee to be brave enough to try them... they remain bunkered down!

• Weideman to the backline in a direct swap forward with Fritsch
• Garlett in / Spargo out
• Billy in / C Wagner out
• Hunt to the wing
• T Smith in / J Wagner out
• Lewis plays back / Salem plays mid
• Jones goes back to inside mid / Brayshaw spends time at half-forward
• Petracca spends time in centre square
• Oliver instructed to kick 2/3, handball 1/3
• Harmes plays mid/not tagging

Dump the zoning and play 1 on 1 as soon as the oppo scores 4 unanswered goals... stay 1 0n 1 as long as it takes to right the ship!

Love it. Agree with nearly all you said. Hope goodwin is thinking the same. Except I don’t think trac can play that position and I’d rather leave Harmes doing what he’s excelling in. But all the rest. 

 I think bringing jones back into the centre and brayshaw to the fwd line is a good idea. Reckon We gain more than we lose w that and Brayshaw may bring some brains into a dysfunctional fed set up also. Same with weid back. Any input into the game he has AT ALL will be an improvement and watching oppo fwds contested mark over frost and omac over and over is starting to do my head in. So that’s another another gain. Fritsch has more footy smarts fwd and will open up the fwd line. And having a one on one defence strategy when an opp team gets going is also needed. 

 

[Dee Zephyr 17,303]

Been the mantra for a while now. Numbers, numbers, numbers to the contest. Observation from behind goals in 1st and 3rd quarters. 

I thought Frost busted his guts and did the work of two defenders yesterday. He often had to cover loose Saints’ forwards and won his fair share of contests inside our defensive 50. Our one dimensional plan of bombing to contests down the wing is a key ingredient to a recipe for disaster. It would work if someone could take a contested mark to at least make the opposition accountable and open up the game a bit. Think back to Tim O’Brien for Hawks against us in 2017 when we had them on toast but he constantly provided an outlet with his contested marking on the wing.

When the ball hits the ground you are simply not going to win every contest, but we think we will with most of our half backs/mids sucked in to that loose ground ball. Again like the Dons game the Saints set up beautifully with a couple of loose men in the middle and outer wing. Bang, they win the ball on the wing, switch to the middle and then to the other side and get us on the counter. Frost now, after originally sprinting 50m and winning the ball in the back half now has to sprint another 50m across the arc to cover more loose men while some of our other defenders/wingmen are still plodding back to defensive 50 with hands on hips. I felt for him and wouldn’t have blamed him if he took himself off for a breather. 

I always thought the lack of switching by us was by design. Not so sure now, the oppo seems so well set up we simply don’t have the options to switch. When an opportunity arises our mids seem to be jogging across the ground, I’d like to think it’s a fitness issue rather than laziness. 

It was a filthy day yesterday and never have I seen so many supporters leave at 3 quarter time in Round 5 of a season. Don’t blame them really.

[chook fowler 18,173]

Those 2 easy set shots by Trac and Melksham really hurt and took away momentum. Plus a turnover by Lewis resulting in a goal- he was beyond bad having the lowest rating of any player on the ground. Should either retire or act a a playing coach at Casey

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

The season is a complete write-off. Why anyone bothers worrying about what we should change is beyond me. Nothing can fix this mess. We overrated our list. Moved on all our depth and we replaced it with what??? Last night was proof of that. Didn’t rate Kent and he tore us a new one. We desperately lack a small crumbing forward and they took ours. It’s a joke. 

[number 27 62]

 IMO it looks as tho the players have lost faith after the prelim. instead of analysing, dissecting, or even watching the prelim the coaches have doubled down on the game plan instead of reimagining or innovating.

so many players out of form. we didn't handle the summer well

 

no finals this year 6-8 wins if we are lucky. at this rate the worst is yet to come

[Moonshadow 16,109]

Play the kids. 

Baker, Petty, Sparrow, Jordan, Bedford, Lockard and, yes, Spargo

Edited April 20, 2019 by Moonshadow

[Redleg 37,474]

8 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

It's not speed, didn't see a St Kilda player sprint past, it is clean ball use and workrate to get on the end of the kick, we lacked the workrate and the pressure to stop the clean disposal

Disagree Saty.

It is clean ball use and workrate, but it is also speed. I saw Saints run off us several times.

The game plan of a congested forward 50 doesn't allow us any one on one contests to win. However at the other end you have them a plenty or mostly uncontested marks/kicks and goals.

That is why the opposition is scoring at about a goal every 2nd entry and us at about a goal every 10th entry.

It is a flawed gameplan that the whole footy world except our coaches see.

The goals we get are from a flash of brilliance like Trac while being spun around or a great Melk mark occasionally. 

The opposition kick them off the ground, handball into the goal square unopposed, mark unopposed or run in unopposed.

You can't win with chaos footy alone, especially when you have no pace, disposal skill and alternative plan to shut down large groups of goals.

I repeat, if we went man on man early in the 3rd, we would have stopped their goal avalanche and given us a chance to fight back in the last.

It is pure arrogance to not admit when you are wrong and the Coaches are therefore guilty of that.

To be honest, to me, it looks like we give up when the run on starts as we know we can't stop it under the current gameplan and coaching.

Players are not playing instinctively and that is why they get the ball and either handball it off to a contest immediately or hold it too long looking for their best option and then get caught holding it.

We are playing a dumb brand of footy and until the Coaches do something about, it I don't think the players can.

[GM11 686]

1 minute ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Been the mantra for a while now. Numbers, numbers, numbers to the contest. Observation from behind goals in 1st and 3rd quarters. 

I thought Frost busted his guts and did the work of two defenders yesterday. He often had to cover loose Saints’ forwards and won his fair share of contests inside our defensive 50. Our one dimensional plan of bombing to contests down the wing is a key ingredient to a recipe for disaster. It would work if someone could take a contested mark to at least make the opposition accountable and open up the game a bit. Think back to Tim O’Brien for Hawks against us in 2017 when we had them on toast but he constantly provided an outlet with his contested marking on the wing.

When the ball hits the ground you are simply not going to win every contest, but we think we will with most of our half backs/mids sucked in to that loose ground ball. Again like the Dons game the Saints set up beautifully with a couple of loose men in the middle and outer wing. Bang, they win the ball on the wing, switch to the middle and then to the other side and get us on the counter. Frost now, after originally sprinting 50m and winning the ball in the back half now has to sprint another 50m across the arc to cover more loose men while some of our other defenders/wingmen are still plodding back to defensive 50 with hands on hips. I felt for him and wouldn’t have blamed him if he took himself off for a breather. 

I always thought the lack of switching by us was by design. Not so sure now, the oppo seems so well set up we simply don’t have the options to switch. When an opportunity arises our mids seem to be jogging across the ground, I’d like to think it’s a fitness issue rather than laziness. 

It was a filthy day yesterday and never have I seen so many supporters leave at 3 quarter time in Round 5 of a season. Don’t blame them really.

One piece of play - Salem wins the ball at half back, turns on the left under pressure and has to kick 60m to a paddock with one Saints player in it. Not one of our forwards or mids manages to cover that outlet kick. 

Is that laziness, dumb footballers, lack of fitness? 

Only one example, but symptomatic in my opinion. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,202]

1 hour ago, Wells 11 said:

It’s not what I’m seeing. Brayshaw, Oliver, Viney, hannon, Gawn are all still working hard and , while not at their peak, are still operating well. They’re always our best players. It’s not the mids imo. 

We are just so easily sliced open when opposition gets a free ball and, when WE do, it’s a race to see who can give it bk fastest! Either that or a competition between tmac, weird  to see who can run under the ball or look the most ineffectual. Dead heat so far... Spargo challenging tho. There’s just no easy, systematic entries we’re having this year at all.  I concur with the many previous. it’s the structure we’re playing with ...... the game plan. 

Its on the coach now. For the first time in his career he’s got to face this down. His plan have clearly fallen apart.lets see what he’s got.

We had the chance to "see what he got" yesterday after the Rnd 15 debacle last year Wells.

He's had 9 months to work on the how after losing to a lessor rated side at the time, which efgectively cost us a top 4 berth and a sexond chance at the big one.

What was the result after 9 mths yday?....a 6 goal improvement to the Saints.

9 months on and we go backwards by 6 goals against a team that didnt play finals.

I clearly know where we are headed under Goody now.   Unfortunately with the latest mind boggling signing it will now take another 3 plus years of on field debacles like that before those at the top realise they picked the wrong option.

At least the MFC has some consistency somewhere though!  Roos aside (effectively an AFL appointed coach), we sure know how to pick em!  (Yes i know Roos annointed Goody at the time but unfortunately he chose poorly).

[Dr.D 1,771]

ok, this is my turn to rant.

 

This is what I think is happening and things I'm not happy with. In no particular order:

 

1. making the finals last year for the first time in 13 years was like a grand final to us. I reckon so much energy went into making the finals that they've completely taken the foot off the gas this season. Subconsciously.

 

2. I think the rule changes hurt us a lot. Any rule changes to quicken up the game do not do us any favours as we're an inside, contested ball team.

 

3. 17 off-season surgeries. That's just too many. I'm not in the inner sanctum of the club but you just can't have that and expect to perform. Could they have staggered them somehow? Is there an issue with the way Misson is managing the players.

 

4. I've been a massive fan of jason Taylor, head recruiter but I'm worried he only knows how to pick up inside mids. Last draft we clearly needed outside class and he picked up sparrow who whilst isnt slow, he is an inside player with questionable foot skills.

 

5. Defensive structure. This to me is really number 1. I'm not sure what is happening. We are playing this stupid zone defence which you can drive the queen Mary cruise ship through. we never have numbers back and our defenders are in no mans land most of the time. You can literally pause the t.v. at any point of the match and there will be as many as 5 oppo players on their own in space. I like to play guess the order that they will get the ball in. 

 

6. Selection. I'm not really a big one for selection when we are this bad as it's not going to make a big difference at this stage as it's a total team meltdown but we need to start making tough decisions. Oscar McDonald should've been dropped 18 months ago but alas he gets dropped this week for the first time this week. There were no grumblings from the dees fans Goodwin. Take a hint. Petracca needs to play as far away from the goals as possible. I'm not going to be reactionary and keep him there just because he kicked some arsy goals against Sydney. The guy is a terrible kick and cannot be played anywhere inside the 50m. Momentum killer most games. And if he was kicking for my life, I'd butter up my body and triple pike into shark infested waters.

 

7. Goodwin's pressers: This drives most fans up the walls. The mechanical dribble he repeats each week seems like he is made out of the same factory as ivan drago. He shows no emotion. It's even starting to rub off on the players. At half time yday Viney was interviewed and said he was happy with where were at. Happy! Start addressing the issues Simon and communicate properly. 

 

8. Josh Mahoney. He is also one that needs to look at himself. He has been great for our club with the likes of hibberd, melksham etc. but he has over-corrected his trade table attitude recently. We paid too much for Lever. 2 first rounders for a guy with acl history is a bit iffy. We were in trade bargaining position as he was out of contract but he coughed them up like nothing. Then we fast forward a year and we let small man syndrome peter bell accept far too less for Hogan when he was in contract. I look at port adelaide and think gee, butters or duursma wouldve been nice. literally exactly what we needed!

[DeeZee 6,719]

I was watching very closely yesterday, as it’s my bug bear that our forwards don’t lead at the ball carrier .

What hope do we have if they don’t move and create space and demand the ball.

How often did we kick it sideways for the ball only to be whisked away.

Even if they constantly kicked it straight to Pruess we would have had a better result.

What the hell do they work on in the preseason and at training if when we get the ball we don’t know where to kick it?

[Deesprate 1,159]

9 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

ok, this is my turn to rant.

 

This is what I think is happening and things I'm not happy with. In no particular order:

 

1. making the finals last year for the first time in 13 years was like a grand final to us. I reckon so much energy went into making the finals that they've completely taken the foot off the gas this season. Subconsciously.

 

2. I think the rule changes hurt us a lot. Any rule changes to quicken up the game do not do us any favours as we're an inside, contested ball team.

 

3. 17 off-season surgeries. That's just too many. I'm not in the inner sanctum of the club but you just can't have that and expect to perform. Could they have staggered them somehow? Is there an issue with the way Misson is managing the players.

 

4. I've been a massive fan of jason Taylor, head recruiter but I'm worried he only knows how to pick up inside mids. Last draft we clearly needed outside class and he picked up sparrow who whilst isnt slow, he is an inside player with questionable foot skills.

 

5. Defensive structure. This to me is really number 1. I'm not sure what is happening. We are playing this stupid zone defence which you can drive the queen Mary cruise ship through. we never have numbers back and our defenders are in no mans land most of the time. You can literally pause the t.v. at any point of the match and there will be as many as 5 oppo players on their own in space. I like to play guess the order that they will get the ball in. 

 

6. Selection. I'm not really a big one for selection when we are this bad as it's not going to make a big difference at this stage as it's a total team meltdown but we need to start making tough decisions. Oscar McDonald should've been dropped 18 months ago but alas he gets dropped this week for the first time this week. There were no grumblings from the dees fans Goodwin. Take a hint. Petracca needs to play as far away from the goals as possible. I'm not going to be reactionary and keep him there just because he kicked some arsy goals against Sydney. The guy is a terrible kick and cannot be played anywhere inside the 50m. Momentum killer most games. And if he was kicking for my life, I'd butter up my body and triple pike into shark infested waters.

 

7. Goodwin's pressers: This drives most fans up the walls. The mechanical dribble he repeats each week seems like he is made out of the same factory as ivan drago. He shows no emotion. It's even starting to rub off on the players. At half time yday Viney was interviewed and said he was happy with where were at. Happy! Start addressing the issues Simon and communicate properly. 

 

8. Josh Mahoney. He is also one that needs to look at himself. He has been great for our club with the likes of hibberd, melksham etc. but he has over-corrected his trade table attitude recently. We paid too much for Lever. 2 first rounders for a guy with acl history is a bit iffy. We were in trade bargaining position as he was out of contract but he coughed them up like nothing. Then we fast forward a year and we let small man syndrome peter bell accept far too less for Hogan when he was in contract. I look at port adelaide and think gee, butters or duursma wouldve been nice. literally exactly what we needed!

Love point seven Ivan Drago. Putting aside the technical analysis (let face it where just no good) it would at least make me feel better if the coach stopped serving up the same platitudes week in week out. Whilst where losing how about trying some new things like TMac to defence, one on one; stacked backline; brawl anything we are so meek and accepting of defeat.