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So from the sounds of things it wouldn't be as easy as swooping in and taking him, so back to getting May and KK to have words with him get him considering us as an option. Gently remind him that we've been able to get our trades done, but Carlton failed with his.

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So carltons original offer was 2.4mil over 4 years, can they now change that to 1.8 over 2 years just to get him in PSD, no way we match that but the original offer is doable, pretty dodgy stuff if the AFL Allows them to change the offer terms just to get him for free 

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25 minutes ago, Lampers said:

 

While the AFL love to change rules every year, I doubt they’ve changed this one.

Martin can nominate a prohibitive salary ask and length so that only Carlton are likely to draft him, and is free to renegotiate to a minimum salary deal after getting to Carlton if he wants.

BUT the original ask is what hits the salary cap, not the actual money paid in the renegotiated deal to make sure clubs don’t use this to manipulate the draft.

Also, again from memory, I’m pretty sure a player can only nominate X dollars over Y years which prevents them setting an ask of say $1.5m in year one and then 100k per year for the next three if their desired club can accomodate something like that. The player can only say $1.8m over four years.

Finally, I think if the player nominated terms (they aren’t required nominate terms, although Martin would) it can’t be just for one year so they can’t do the “$1.5m for one year” and then sign the 100k for the next three in the subsequent contract to simulate the earlier example.

Do these rules apply to brown paper bag payments? For the sake of the argument, let's call them 'Visys'.

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Sun's may redraft him as they have PSD picks 1/2.  We could take him at 3 but we'd need to be sure unless we have a backup player in that player pool.

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Having a player of Martin’s talent fall into our lap is nothing short of a miracle.  We have to take advantage of this.

The memory is still fresh of Collingwood bullying Luke Ball through to pick 30 in the ‘09 draft.
 

People have been calling for the club to grow a pair and take a stand... this is our opportunity.

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1 hour ago, brendan said:

So carltons original offer was 2.4mil over 4 years, can they now change that to 1.8 over 2 years just to get him in PSD, no way we match that but the original offer is doable, pretty dodgy stuff if the AFL Allows them to change the offer terms just to get him for free 

I don't know the rules, but it would be pretty obvious if he demanded 1.8 over 2 when the previous figure was 2.4 over 4. I don't know if the AFL would allow that. Common sense says that it wouldn't, but that is something lacking in the AFL headquarters, so it is hard to know. I reckon Martin is more than gettable for us. This appears to be one of the rare opportunities that have fallen our way. The other one is going to be GWS paying overs for our pick 3. This could be a monumental trade period for us.

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2 hours ago, Darkhorse72 said:

Sun's may redraft him as they have PSD picks 1/2.  We could take him at 3 but we'd need to be sure unless we have a backup player in that player pool.

Do they get an extra pick in the PSD as well? I thought it was only the national draft they got the assistance package, wouldn't surprise me if they initially do have that and then will suddenly say "oh yeah and they get another go at the PSD".

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4 hours ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Having a player of Martin’s talent fall into our lap is nothing short of a miracle.  We have to take advantage of this.

The memory is still fresh of Collingwood bullying Luke Ball through to pick 30 in the ‘09 draft.
 

People have been calling for the club to grow a pair and take a stand... this is our opportunity.

Absolutely agree this is a great opportunity that Melbourne should pursue.

Luke Ball was a long time ago and things may be different now, and as much as we didn’t like it Ball nominated for the National draft, Ball correctly gambled that while Melbourne would definitely use the #1 preseason draft pick on him given the only real value of pre-season draft picks was a very early one to leverage such scenarios, Melbourne would not waste a more valuable National Draft pick on him which would mean forgoing a chance at a relatively highly rated 18 year old.

Ball had the choice to nominate for either the National or Pre-season draft which was a relatively new choice at the time if I recall correctly.

Ultimately with Ball wiser heads prevailed and Melbourne didn’t draft a player against their will which is unlikely to have worked out well for either party.

I think people have correctly identified that if Melbourne want Martin, the key is getting Martin to want to be at Melbourne and the potential advantage is May and Kolodjashnij assuming that they had reasonable relationships with Martin rather than financial terms.

GC will likely also be trying really hard to get Martin to reconsider and re-sign and that would depend on how bad the relationship is between them and Martin. While Melbourne were a poor team during the Ball situation and also had a really poor 2019, another difference is Martin will probably perceive Melbourne are a team with high potential who had a poor year, rather than a rubbish team which would be similar to playing for Gold Coast from a success perspective. GC threat of “re-sign or else you go to Melbourne” isn’t likely to be much of a threat.

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Doesnt he have to be off the Suns' list to nominate for any of the draft? Is there a DFA period between the last list lodgement before the draft and the draft? If so, then Carlton can just sign him as a DFA.

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5 minutes ago, Good Lord George said:

Doesnt he have to be off the Suns' list to nominate for any of the draft? Is there a DFA period between the last list lodgement before the draft and the draft? If so, then Carlton can just sign him as a DFA.

I think he just has to be out of contract.

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If he can go in the National Draft we won’t get near him.

This needs his desire to come to us and first May, KK, Jetta and whoever, need to convince him and second, we need to do a deal with GC that we will delist someone for them, like Billy and agree to help them in the future with something.

We won’t burn them as the wheel turns.

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Martin is not a DFA.  He is just going to be out of contract.  
Dees definitely need to work out a strong case to get Martin onboard.  He is what we need.  Great skills.  Outside type player.  Likes a goal and is a good shot.  

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A ready made experienced goal kicking HF who can play both small (crumbing options & around the goal smarts) and somewhat tall with solid overhead skills?  And basically play an outside role anywhere between the arcs at a pinch?

If there's any chance of snagging him we would be mad not to be getting in to this big time and giving it a serious crack.

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8 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Martin is not a DFA.  He is just going to be out of contract.  
Dees definitely need to work out a strong case to get Martin onboard.  He is what we need.  Great skills.  Outside type player.  Likes a goal and is a good shot.  

This is the key here, while if available and we're still able to meet his terms I wouldn't be against us "drafting" him I ultimately want him to come to the club in a manner in which he feels excited and hopeful about being a Demon.

Edited by Pates
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5 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

I don't know the rules, but it would be pretty obvious if he demanded 1.8 over 2 when the previous figure was 2.4 over 4. I don't know if the AFL would allow that. Common sense says that it wouldn't, but that is something lacking in the AFL headquarters, so it is hard to know. I reckon Martin is more than gettable for us. This appears to be one of the rare opportunities that have fallen our way. The other one is going to be GWS paying overs for our pick 3. This could be a monumental trade period for us.

For mine AFL headquarters and common sense don’t go together. The AFL wants Carlton strong again to have the big 4 Vic clubs generating as much cash as they can for them. 

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36 minutes ago, loges said:

I think he just has to be out of contract.

This seems half arsed to me. When you are out of contract, either because your club doesn't offer you one or you choose not to sign, you will be delisted at some stage.

IMO, they should just become DFAs. They get where they want to go anyway, generally, by putting a price on their head or warning other clubs that they won't  play there. Clubs rarely take the gamble of picking someone who doesn't want to play for them. 

The AFL should just do away with the PSD, and you pick blokes in the national or in the rookie. If they are delisted, either through being let go or because they are out of contract, they become DFAs.

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His price of $700k will rule us out, its apipe dream, plus he is not a $700k per year player. He has lovely skills but i honestly cannot remember seeing him rip a game a part, in fact i cant even really remember watching him play and thinking this guy is a gun.

 Bailey Fritsch is everything and can be  more Jack Martin is and we already have him. 

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26 minutes ago, Good Lord George said:

This seems half arsed to me. When you are out of contract, either because your club doesn't offer you one or you choose not to sign, you will be delisted at some stage.

IMO, they should just become DFAs. They get where they want to go anyway, generally, by putting a price on their head or warning other clubs that they won't  play there. Clubs rarely take the gamble of picking someone who doesn't want to play for them. 

The AFL should just do away with the PSD, and you pick blokes in the national or in the rookie. If they are delisted, either through being let go or because they are out of contract, they become DFAs.

But in that case, any player out of contract is effectively a free agent. Why trade when you can just wait, let their contract expire and then sign them as a DFA.

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11 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

But in that case, any player out of contract is effectively a free agent. Why trade when you can just wait, let their contract expire and then sign them as a DFA.

I get that point of view, but until clubs start picking players in the PSD against their wishes they might as well be.

My one  concern would be new draftees leaving for nothing after two years. Increase draftee contracts to 4 years. Clubs will trade players one year early like they do with FAs now, and anyone in contract will still require a trade. Clubs will trade to get another year out of a guy.

Edited by Good Lord George

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56 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

A ready made experienced goal kicking HF who can play both small (crumbing options & around the goal smarts) and somewhat tall with solid overhead skills?  And basically play an outside role anywhere between the arcs at a pinch?

If there's any chance of snagging him we would be mad not to be getting in to this big time and giving it a serious crack.

Totally agree. Getting him without giving up a draft pick would be massive.

My only hesitation is his salary ask. If rumours are true he seemingly was guaranteed a big salary at the blues, upwards of 6-700k a year. Normally I wouldn't care but I reckon that is overs and leaving aside cap issues might cause some rumblings

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1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Martin is not a DFA.  He is just going to be out of contract.  
Dees definitely need to work out a strong case to get Martin onboard.  He is what we need.  Great skills.  Outside type player.  Likes a goal and is a good shot.  

He will become a DFA if the GCS delist him and then he can sign with anyone.

If GCS dont delist him and  they dont re-sign him he either enters the draft or the pre-season draft. If he nominates for the draft he cant nominate terms however if he nominates for the pre-season draft he can nominate terms and the club who drafts him has to honor these terms. He doesnt get to nominate a club just terms.

Thats my understanding

 

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We were going to give $500k to a gifted but chronically injured player from Collingwood. That can be added to what Martin could be paid surely?

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8 hours ago, Darkhorse72 said:

Sun's may redraft him as they have PSD picks 1/2.  We could take him at 3 but we'd need to be sure unless we have a backup player in that player pool.

PSD has no priority picks, we're still sitting at 2

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1 hour ago, Demon3 said:

His price of $700k will rule us out, its apipe dream, plus he is not a $700k per year player. He has lovely skills but i honestly cannot remember seeing him rip a game a part, in fact i cant even really remember watching him play and thinking this guy is a gun.

 Bailey Fritsch is everything and can be  more Jack Martin is and we already have him. 

 

40 minutes ago, binman said:

Totally agree. Getting him without giving up a draft pick would be massive.

My only hesitation is his salary ask. If rumours are true he seemingly was guaranteed a big salary at the blues, upwards of 6-700k a year. Normally I wouldn't care but I reckon that is overs and leaving aside cap issues might cause some rumblings

In the end this is probably the sticking point. I'm not big on every Buckenara assessment but this was his thoughts prior to the trade finishing y'day...

..."Gold Coast want a first-round pick for Martin but he’s just not worth that based on exposed form. Yes he’s a talented player but he doesn’t work hard enough and has not translated that talent into consistent form at AFL level. To me, he’s worth Carlton’s pick 43. If the Suns get something better than that then they’ve actually done very well."

$500k (ish) max feels about right.

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Alright time for the club to get creative with its accounting, seriously so many other clubs have been able to do it in the past. With Martin being a genuine opportunity for us surely it can be done. 

There might be question marks over his worth at the price but we have overpaid others due it being a need. Well he has attributes we need so make it worth Dees. 

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