Welcome Back to the Bottom of the Ladder

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,095]

1 hour ago, praha said:

we've been average at the MCG since Goodwin took over. I wonder how much longer we have to put up with his stubbornness. 

If we win 0 or 1 game at our home ground in 2019, then that's a complete indictment on the senior coach. he has to totally overhaul the game plan if he wants to last more than 2 more years in the gig. Once you're sacked, you don't get another chance at this caper. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Bring-Back-Powell

[praha 10,267]

4 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

If we win 0 or 1 game at our home ground in 2019, then that's a complete indictment on the senior coach. he has to totally overhaul the game plan if he wants to last more than 2 more years in the gig. Once you're sacked, you don't get another chance at this caper. 

Evidently, finishing last also stamps your papers, although these days you're given more time to right the ship. 

When was the last time a premiership winning coach also coached the team to the wooden spoon, either prior to or after they won the flag?

It's really not looking good for Goodwin atm.

[Spud 274]

2 hours ago, praha said:

Evidently, finishing last also stamps your papers, although these days you're given more time to right the ship. 

When was the last time a premiership winning coach also coached the team to the wooden spoon, either prior to or after they won the flag?

It's really not looking good for Goodwin atm.

Clarkson was .5 off the bottom in 2005. They only won 5 games that year, won the flag 3 years later!

[Macca 16,173]

1 hour ago, Spud said:

Clarkson was .5 off the bottom in 2005. They only won 5 games that year, won the flag 3 years later!

They were tanking as well in 2005 ... picked up a priority pick and a top end pick for their trouble.

Brereton ... "We need one more go at the draft" (meaning a good go)

So Clarko tanked in his first year of coaching ... with the backing of the club of course.

[DV8 2,271]

13 minutes ago, Macca said:

They were tanking as well in 2005 ... picked up a priority pick and a top end pick for their trouble.

Brereton ... "We need one more go at the draft" (meaning a good go)

So Clarko tanked in his first year of coaching ... with the backing of the club of course.

It (list management) is common in the AFL...  Carlton have been doing it for the past 3 or 4 yrs.  Accruing talent before they release the handbrake, & shoot for the stars.

Now with 6.6.6...  its all set for them.

Freo have been accruing ,  not as well as Carlton IMO.

Brisbane,  Gold Coast,  Carlton,  Freo,  St-Kilda.  all have been busy accruing.

[Spud 274]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

They were tanking as well in 2005 ... picked up a priority pick and a top end pick for their trouble.

Brereton ... "We need one more go at the draft" (meaning a good go)

So Clarko tanked in his first year of coaching ... with the backing of the club of course.

Yep, agree they didn't play Holland and Hay but to the media this didn't happen,  the kreuzer cup never happened and the fact Hawthorn got buddy and roughy was irrelevant.  Collingwood tanking the last 9 games from memory in 2005 to get Thomas and Pendlebury never happened! They forget even our tanking to get Sylvia and Mclean in 2003. I wont even start with Carlton….

Only Scully and Trengove were obtained by tanking according to the media! Such tools

I guess though some coaches have been near the bottom, irrespective of the approach and reason for being there and have still won a flag soon after. Collingwood only had 5 wins in 2005 also under Malthouse and were second last only a drawn game above Carlton, similar to the hawks that year.

[Macca 16,173]

2 minutes ago, Spud said:

Yep, agree they didn't play Holland and Hay but to the media this didn't happen,  the kreuzer cup never happened and the fact Hawthorn got buddy and roughy was irrelevant.  Collingwood tanking the last 9 games from memory in 2005 to get Thomas and Pendlebury never happened! They forget even our tanking to get Sylvia and Mclean in 2003. I wont even start with Carlton….

Only Scully and Trengove were obtained by tanking according to the media! Such tools

I guess though some coaches have been near the bottom, irrespective of the approach and reason for being there and have still won a flag soon after. Collingwood only had 5 wins in 2005 also under Malthouse and were second last only a drawn game above Carlton, similar to the hawks that year.

Our footy media are either clueless or in bed with the AFL ... probably both if we're being honest.  Intentionally clueless?

But tanking has become like PED use in sport ... no one gives a stuff anymore so it is rarely a conversation piece SP.

Look up 'Match Fixing' on Wikipedia and the MFC club is the only AFL team mentioned.  Again,  only a very small part of a much bigger story is highlighted.

[Engorged Onion 9,215]

maybe it's all scripted (just like the truman show) - tanking is in the headlines again, we are paying our penance in 2019 and will be a story of redemption in 2020...

[DV8 2,271]

22 minutes ago, Spud said:

Yep, agree they didn't play Holland and Hay but to the media this didn't happen,  the kreuzer cup never happened and the fact Hawthorn got buddy and roughy was irrelevant.  Collingwood tanking the last 9 games from memory in 2005 to get Thomas and Pendlebury never happened! They forget even our tanking to get Sylvia and Mclean in 2003. I wont even start with Carlton…. 

Don't forget...

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints?year=2000

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints?year=2001

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints?year=2002

[Spud 274]

19 minutes ago, DV8 said:

Don't forget...

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints?year=2000

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints?year=2001

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints?year=2002

Had forgotten about the original's almost got them a premiership with Goddard, Ball, Kosi and Riewoldt, plus the trade advantages to get Hamill, Gehrig, Powell etc...

[Deemania since 56 6,119]

On 4/29/2019 at 1:26 PM, DeeZee said:

Our game plan has been superseded it’s now old , and teams have gone right past us , and the Swans , who coincidentally had the same Roos type foundations.

We don’t have a plan B , so this year is almost a right off until we have another preseason to work out something new and have a crack next year.

Eerily similar to the Daniher years.

The game plan, the prime movers in general  -  not all  -  and the structured linkage/anticipation are all superseded this year with a continuum of random effort and uncertain confidence. Our contested possession count has been out-coached with better run, carry and disposal. We are, at present, well behind in the competition so real change must be implemented based on assembled skills, not some static conception in the minds of the FD and coach. 

[sue 8,402]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Our footy media are either clueless or in bed with the AFL ... probably both if we're being honest.  Intentionally clueless?

But tanking has become like PED use in sport ... no one gives a stuff anymore so it is rarely a conversation piece SP.

Look up 'Match Fixing' on Wikipedia and the MFC club is the only AFL team mentioned.  Again,  only a very small part of a much bigger story is highlighted.

have a go at editing the Wiki page.

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, Spud said:

Had forgotten about the original's almost got them a premiership with Goddard, Ball, Kosi and Riewoldt, plus the trade advantages to get Hamill, Gehrig, Powell etc...

It all seemed to start (list managing) around 2000....

Interestingly,  just after the game went Professional.

[junk 342]

I would like to see Keilty play ruck for most of the game. Our mids can feed off the oppos ruckman.Gawn to play back/forward. Lewis to play up front . Jones to be dumped . Other changes I don't really care.

[Macca 16,173]

2 hours ago, DV8 said:

It all seemed to start (list managing) around 2000....

Interestingly,  just after the game went Professional.

Yep ... but perhaps a few years earlier dl.

The priority pick before the first round proper started off in the mid to late 90's.

Win less than 5.5 games and clubs got hold of the standout junior (as well as a top end pick)

Tanking started out at the same time as a logical,  natural progression.  The clubs becoming professional just heightened the manipulation.

It is now accepted in pro sports much like PED use is largely ignored.

Progress has its price.

[DV8 2,271]

39 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yep ... but perhaps a few years earlier dl.

The priority pick before the first round proper started off in the mid to late 90's.

Win less than 5.5 games and clubs got hold of the standout junior (as well as a top end pick)

Tanking started out at the same time as a logical,  natural progression.  The clubs becoming professional just heightened the manipulation.

It is now accepted in pro sports much like PED use is largely ignored.

Progress has its price.

You know, I don't mind the concept of the Priority Pick,  but its too easily manipulated, to get it.  

... and that manipulation is very distasteful to the competition, for what where all striving.

 

Whispering Jack said a couple of seasons ago,  that he thought the lower pick order should be drawn from a barrel, or such.   I now agree with this.

 

The AFL's refusal to put this idea in place...  IMO smacks of they're desire to influence the drafts outcomes,  and of who they'd like to be benefiting,  from the drafts early order.

[Macca 16,173]

1 minute ago, DV8 said:

You know, I don't mind the concept of the Priority Pick,  but its too easily manipulated, to get it.  

... and that manipulation is very distasteful to the competition, for what where all striving.

 

Whispering Jack said a couple of seasons ago,  that he thought the lower pick order should be drawn from a barrel, or such.   I now agree with this.

 

The AFL's refusal to put this idea in place...  IMO smacks of they're desire to influence the drafts outcomes,  and of who they'd like to be benefiting,  from the drafts early order.

A good example of that was when we were knocked back when we requested a priority pick in 2014 ... 10 wins over 3 years wasn't deemed as being worthy of some help (in earlier years we would have received 3 priority picks ... 1 for each year)

Ironically enough,  we were such a poor team in those years we had no need to tank.

 As it turned out we ended up with picks 2 & 3 after the Frawley compensation.  Convenient outcome on the AFL's terms?

[praha 10,267]

9 hours ago, Spud said:

Clarkson was .5 off the bottom in 2005. They only won 5 games that year, won the flag 3 years later!

In his first year. Goodwin would be guiding a team to last, in his 3rd year as coach, 5th year at the club, 6 years after this rebuild started. He won't survive it. At the very least, he would be stuck in the middle of a complete restructuring of the football department. This [censored] about off season surgeries and delayed pre seasons is the most Melbourne excuse ever. Suddenly playing finals and having players undergoing surgery equates to finishing last. So they don't want to use it as excuse: that's because it would be an indictment on performance management, and an embarrassment. 

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

Is Goody too nice? Fair question I reckon. As a supporter and an outsider looking in our coach looks to be very ‘matey matey’ with the boys. As the assistant coach under Roos for several years it is understandable (and preferable) he developed this type of rapport with the playing group but as he is now discovering in his second year in the hot seat, things are a far different proposition as top banana at AFL level. Relationships become far more complex. Tough calls have to be made. Noses on occasion have to be put out of joint and very occasionally a few cages rattled. I don’t know that I’m convinced on what I’m seeing publicly, at least not so far, that Goody has what it takes to rise to these types of challenges and command a respect that goes beyond friendship with people and into the realm of genuine leadership and man motivation. He comes across as overly measured, robotic and clichè driven in media press conferences. Certainly got all the footy industry speak and jargon down pat. But we need more than that. Much more. We’re talking about a fetid club culture here of ‘near enough’s good enough’’ acceptance that dates back as far as I can remember following the club. Back to the early 80’s. Many of you old timers will declare that  it extends back even further than that. Self-satisfaction and rolling along in a comfort zone is now a deeply ingrained part of the DNA of the MFC.

The worry here is that Simon Goodwin inherited the fruits of Paul Roos masterclass in footy club rebuilding , rode that wave without too much stress in 2018, but is now finding out just how truly gargantuan the task is going to be to have this club genuinely challenging for silverware. It’s the Mt Everest of jobs in this competition.  Matey matey clichè robot man is simply not going to cut it from here on in. Nice guys do often finish last. And right now - lo and behold - that’s exactly where we find ourselves.

 

[Buzzy 919]

I've been thinking about this a bit, now we're the bottom dwellers again with little hope for the future. ?

There's something about the current crop of players that just isn't as likeable/relatable/exciting/dynamic as our other squads in the last 30 years or so that I can remember.  Outside of Oliver, Nev, Gawn we don't really have many iconic stand outs that all great teams have.

It looked like it could be Hogan but the fans never really warmed to him, for various reasons [big sook].

It's really evident that we have this big gaping talent hole in the forward line.  Where's our Jurrah, Neitz, Schwarz, Farmer, Yze, Jakovich of this era?  The aerialists and the great kickers, the player that makes you stand up in anticipation when the chaos ball goes into the forward line? Jesus we are light on up there and right across the ground.

I just find it hard to really get excited about this mix of players, especially the forwards.  It's clear we are 5 or 6 skillful players short of being a decent contender.  Hard to love a team populated with Omacs, Wagners, Spargos and others substandard project players that clearly aren't going to cut the mustard.

I'm seeing young skillful dynamic A graders popping up in every team these days... and the best we can do over the last couple of years is unearth a couple of players who are 'competitive' or 'hard at it'.  Need a bit more than that these days unfortunately... 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Buzzy

[dpositive 1,547]

I think you could be being a bit harsh.

While I have said that we have needed an outright star Jarman, Aker, Burgoyne, style who had plenty of attitude and turned it on on the biggest occasion, and we have never had that star. 

I had hopes that Watts was that icing on the cake but we got rid of him just as the fundamentals gathered. Then Hogan but we would not persevere with his inconsistent brilliance, demanding he subsume himself to the team game. 

We now have Oliver Trac, Brayshaw, Gawn, Jets, who knows how good Fritsch Spargo Hore, Lockhartcould be. Weid is still growing into his role

With Lever and May still to get on the park, the squad T Mac,Frost, Stretch, Melk Hannah, ANB, Maynard, etc can all play a meaningful support role. Even OMac can fill a spot well. Lewis certainly ads an assured understanding of what it takes in the big time and is necessary in the buildup and would need to show he has another finals campaign in him

Where is that big occasion star it isn't Jones or Viney but as with all the team they can still provide that great game.

The coach needs to recognise what we have and use the full body of works with diverse talent spreads needing diverse game plans against oppositions who are not consistent.

We have the talent, we just need to charge them with confidence and get the right combination to ensure we win.

 

 

[Pates 9,536]

I've avoided demonland as much as I can lately because this season has fallen off the rails so quickly it's shocked me. I'm starting to wonder at what point do we write the season off and decide to put key players in for surgeries that could get them cherry ripe for 2020, while also pumping game time into players that we know will be a part of next season. 

In theory we could recover this year if we are able to stop the rot right now but every player has gone backwards or is injured which makes hope for that very slim in my books. 

The most concerning part of the ground that we are struggling in is the front half, Weids and TMac are woefully out of form and for Sam it's embarrassing that he is looking for a new healthy contract at the end of the year and he is playing like he wants to be dropped. The defence is undermanned at the moment, but we need to find a way to recapture what made us such an exciting team from last year, our attacking abilities. 

[jumbo returns 6,484]

Is Goodwin the right coach?

The Yzes, the Farmers, the Neitzs didn't help either

The problem we have, outside 2 or 3, is that we are fielding a team that is:

1. VFL only

2. Too many injured players

We need to lay low this season and pick up some youngsters for 2020....

Harm minimisation

Oh, and just for the record? Hogan has been a SIGNIFICANT loss - there, I said it

[old dee 22,802]

14 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Is Goodwin the right coach?

The Yzes, the Farmers, the Neitzs didn't help either

The problem we have, outside 2 or 3, is that we are fielding a team that is:

1. VFL only

2. Too many injured players

We need to lay low this season and pick up some youngsters for 2020....

Harm minimisation

Oh, and just for the record? Hogan has been a SIGNIFICANT loss - there, I said it

Very accurate summation jr. the worst thing we could do this year is finish 9th. I don't think there is a snow flakes in hell chance it will happen so accept that last year we were lucky at the right times and start preparing for 2020. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by old dee

[jumbo returns 6,484]

1 minute ago, old dee said:

Very accurate summation jr. the worst thing we could do this year is finish 9th. I don't think there is a snow flakes in hell chance it will happen so accept that last year we were lucky at the right times and start preparing for 2020. 

9th? Not a hope in hell, od

The bottom 2 or 3 await