The Writing Was/Is on the Wall

[Smokey 4,112]

14 hours ago, rjay said:

 

I hope you don't mean me 'Smokey'?

He like many young kids is in danger of it...that's why many get the 2nd year blues. I trust with McCartney around this won't happen.

I do indeed. 

The term "drinking your own bathwater" would imply that a player, in this example Clarry, has openly praised his or the teams own abilities and is now failing to meet that. The validation of information that has been put out by an individual with regard to oneself and the subsequent failure to meet the standards portrayed.     

Please share with me any evidence of this. I find our players to be pretty humble when it comes to media appearances and generally say the right thing. It's only the media and commentators pumping us up, and our players are constantly bombarded with conversations about expectations this year and I honestly feel that they respond to that pretty respectfully. Unless I'm missing the interview where Clarry came out and said "I'll win a Brownlow and we won't drop a single game this year", I feel like people don't understand what this idiom actually means and are not applying it correctly.  

Clarry in my view does the opposite. He is highly humble and has shown that he continues to work harder and harder every year. Suggesting he is in danger of drinking his own bathwater is way off the mark in my opinion. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,381]

16 minutes ago, Smokey said:

 

Do I have to respect others rights to have differing views? Of course. Do I have to accept these views as fact? Absolutely not. You can't suggest one person has the right to say what they feel but tell another he cannot because it is at odds with someone else's view. 

For those playing at home, this is a good example of an oxymoron. 

Getting back on track, I wouldn't take issue with whats being said here is I felt it was "realistic". I consider myself a realist in saying that losing in round 1 is not the end of the world, there were a number of factors which clearly contributed to it, it's a long season and lets pump the brakes a bit until we have a decent data set to analyse. 

What is being said here can only be viewed as hysterical at this point, not the collected thoughts of a bunch of "realists" who appreciate the significant contributing factors to why we would have a slow start to the year. 

Don't like my opinions which are at odds with others? Take a leaf out of your own book and stop reading them then ... 

I've actually lost track of who's a realist, who's over-reacted and who is arguing with whom. I think it's time we all moved on (me included). For what it's worth, I think I'm a realist who over-reacted and started arguing with myself on this thread.

 

[Smokey 4,112]

@La Dee-vina Comedia Fair call. I'm just tired of hearing every under-performing player being labelled as "drinking their own bathwater". It is possible that players can have bad games without being full of themselves you know ...  

[rjay 23,846]

19 hours ago, rjay said:

I'm a big fan but he's a kid and in danger of drinking his own bathwater. 

 

 

17 hours ago, Smokey said:

Getting pretty sick of people claiming that certain players are "drinking their own bathwater" after having an average game or two.

 

15 hours ago, rjay said:

 

I hope you don't mean me 'Smokey'?

 

53 minutes ago, Smokey said:

I do indeed. 

Better get your facts right then 'Smokey'...

Big difference between what I said and what you quoted.

[Smokey 4,112]

9 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

 

 

Better get your facts right then 'Smokey'...

Big difference between what I said and what you quoted.

Ok i'll approach this differently. 

What evidence have you based this opinion that Clarry is in danger of drinking his own bathwater? Keep in mind, poor performance is only one of the metrics at play here. He would also have to display a level of outward arrogance with relation to his own abilities to meet the category for the idiom you have chosen to use here.  

I find his personality, based off observing his media appearances to date, to be very humble and frankly completely at odds with what you are suggesting. 

[rjay 23,846]

25 minutes ago, Smokey said:

What evidence have you based this opinion that Clarry is in danger of drinking his own bathwater?

I think any young player is in danger of drinking their own bathwater when they get pumped up by the fans and media.

As I've said many players suffer a down year early in their careers often called the 2nd year blues (but not always in their 2nd year).

I think he's a good kid and has been probably my favourite player since watching his first game with the club but he is only human...

At the moment he's not doing the things that make him a good player and that could be for a number of reasons.

[jnrmac 18,913]

On 3/25/2019 at 11:49 AM, praha said:

We were bad on Saturday. But perspective has us lose a match by 23 points after getting smashed in UC possessions, tackling and inside 50s. And without two key defenders, and Lewis. 

We went up against two ruckman, with an underdone Oliver and Viney, and no impact from Brayshaw or Petracca.

That was as bad a performance as I've seen since probably round 23 2016 vs Geelong. We were worse on Saturday than we were against Hawthorn last season. We were lethargic, slow, and lacking urgency. And yet we only lost by 23 points.

Yeah we lost but hardly is it the writing on the wall. People need to get their [censored] together.

Did you miss the prelim,?

 

[praha 10,267]

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Did you miss the prelim,?

 

Completely irrelevant in isolation. We were terrible against Collingwood in round 23 2017 and similarly inconsistent and poor against Geelong in round 1 last year but no one made the connection. If you want to talk about trends then fine but seasons should be treated in isolation. Besides, we were x10000 worse in the Prelim. We were within a goal on Saturday at the 12 minute mark of the last quarter. Like I know people are trying to justify their irrational angst, but comparing two games, 6 months apart, in two different seasons is just silly.

[Smokey 4,112]

20 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think any young player is in danger of drinking their own bathwater when they get pumped up by the fans and media.

As I've said many players suffer a down year early in their careers often called the 2nd year blues (but not always in their 2nd year).

I think he's a good kid and has been probably my favourite player since watching his first game with the club but he is only human...

At the moment he's not doing the things that make him a good player and that could be for a number of reasons.

Where we will not see eye to eye on this is the insistence of using hypothetical scenarios in the assessment of any player. Yes, anything is possible - Clarry could succumb to the media hype and become arrogant. He could also get hit by a tram and break both legs, or slip into a deep depression after his missus leaves him for a 65 year old super yacht owner with a horrific spray tan. 

Hypothetical's in this scenario serve no purpose other than generating unnecessary hysteria and anxiousness which frankly, we simply do not need. 
 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Smokey

[rjay 23,846]

13 minutes ago, Smokey said:

Clarry could succumb to the media hype and become arrogant.

I'm not sure about him becoming arrogant, that's your interpretation but he could sit back a bit and stop doing the things that make him the player he his.

This is all part of armchair analysis and all of us hypothesise to a degree even those at the club on the front line.

 

[jnrmac 18,913]

8 hours ago, praha said:

Completely irrelevant in isolation. We were terrible against Collingwood in round 23 2017 and similarly inconsistent and poor against Geelong in round 1 last year but no one made the connection. If you want to talk about trends then fine but seasons should be treated in isolation. Besides, we were x10000 worse in the Prelim. We were within a goal on Saturday at the 12 minute mark of the last quarter. Like I know people are trying to justify their irrational angst, but comparing two games, 6 months apart, in two different seasons is just silly.

Wow you're arguing with yourself.

You said it was the worst we had played since rd 23 2017 and I happened to mention the prelim....now you say "comparing two games, 6 months apart, in two different seasons is just silly" but you want to compare two games 19mths apart?

OK I give in.

[praha 10,267]

11 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Wow you're arguing with yourself.

You said it was the worst we had played since rd 23 2017 and I happened to mention the prelim....now you say "comparing two games, 6 months apart, in two different seasons is just silly" but you want to compare two games 19mths apart?

OK I give in.

lol you were acknowledging a trend. I wasn't. I said it was the worst we had played *since*. Whereas your argument is that it was a trend.

[Smokey 4,112]

20 hours ago, rjay said:

I'm not sure about him becoming arrogant, that's your interpretation but he could sit back a bit and stop doing the things that make him the player he his.

This is all part of armchair analysis and all of us hypothesise to a degree even those at the club on the front line.

 

Can you explain what you mean when you say drinking your own bathwater then? Because my understanding of the meaning of this is that it includes a player becoming arrogant in terms of their own abilities, which in turn breeds complacency, which in turn could lead to poor performance on the field. That's generally the context in which most commentators are speaking to when it is mentioned. Is your take on this different? Genuinely interested here because I seriously hate this term being thrown around without justification and have spoken of it before here. 

[jnrmac 18,913]

2 hours ago, praha said:

lol you were acknowledging a trend. I wasn't. I said it was the worst we had played *since*. Whereas your argument is that it was a trend.

Man you are now inventing stuff. 

Mine was a simple comment. It wasn't our worst game since rd 23 2017

Are you eating mushrooms of some kind?

[praha 10,267]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Man you are now inventing stuff. 

Mine was a simple comment. It wasn't our worst game since rd 23 2017

Are you eating mushrooms of some kind?

yes

[rjay 23,846]

5 hours ago, Smokey said:

Can you explain what you mean when you say drinking your own bathwater then? Because my understanding of the meaning of this is that it includes a player becoming arrogant in terms of their own abilities, which in turn breeds complacency, which in turn could lead to poor performance on the field. That's generally the context in which most commentators are speaking to when it is mentioned. Is your take on this different? Genuinely interested here because I seriously hate this term being thrown around without justification and have spoken of it before here. 

I don't see it as arrogance but sometimes young players can get a bit too comfortable and forget to do the things that got them the praise. A bit of adulation can subconsciously or in some cases consciously go to their heads.

Not a great sample size and he is coming off injury.

...but it's a real trap for young players.

I'm definitely not saying he's an arrogant [censored] or anything of the sort.

[DV8 2,271]

9 hours ago, rjay said:

I don't see it as arrogance but sometimes young players can get a bit too comfortable and forget to do the things that got them the praise. A bit of adulation can subconsciously or in some cases consciously go to their heads.

Not a great sample size and he is coming off injury.

...but it's a real trap for young players.

I'm definitely not saying he's an arrogant [censored] or anything of the sort.

not just young players rjay...

Melbourne especially,  has a history of this, with our senior payers as well.   What do you reckon happened on the weekend.   They all went to sleep after halfway thru the first Q. Gawn jones Viney, TMc.  a huge cross section of the team.  and at home at the 'G'.

 

I bet if we played away in SA we would have won the game.   In the Daniher days, we did it every other year...  and later, every other week...  win one,  lose one.   With all fall down robbo .

 

This is why the footy world do not respect our club...  and this is why we could not entice good Head coaches,  before the AFL stepped up to the plate.

[rjay 23,846]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:31 PM, rjay said:

You're right 'Goody', it's no reason to overreact but that's now 4 poor games in a row.

That's a trend.

I think we can now put some things into perspective and act to fix what we can.

From my post after the JLT games...

"A lot of people wanting to put things into perspective from my readings....

...so here's my perspective.

We're not good enough to cruise through preseason games just yet...if these games are meant to tweak the game plan and fine tune for the first game then heaven help us.

That was a dogs breakfast.

No amount of perspective can change that."

In another post earlier in the year I also said that our continued improvement will be harder this year.

We've been on a steady upward climb and logic would see us drop off a bit somewhere.

Is this the year we drop back a bit? do we miss finals?

A bit early to call but on the evidence of the last 4 games we've got work to do.

I think our list is overrated by the media and of course us fans...there are holes and I'm sure the FD know this.

We lack quality small forwards, Jeffy is the only class one we have and he's super flakey...

Spargo is not up to it yet and I don't think he has the tricks to ever be. At his size he needs them big time.

ANB can fill a role but at the moment that's what all our small forwards are trying to do...he must hit the scoreboard to hold his place.

We had Sparrow in there yesterday for his first game and at least he put some pressure on but he's not a small forward.

Hunt's been tried but he's not one either.

So our small forwards are about pressure but none bring scoreboard pressure except Jeffy at times.

Our defence..Frost, should have been delisted.

Omac...the experiment is over. Time to put development into Petty alongside May & Lever.

Hibberd hasn't been the player he was in 2017, he's drifting by and not working anywhere near hard enough.

We miss Lever big time but I think we overpaid for him, one of those draft kids running around now adding a bit of class could have been handy.

Tommy Mac worries me, he's had a good season as a forward but has been very average as of late.

History shows he had a really good season and a bit as a defender then dropped off dramatically.

Let's hope it's just an aberration and he's up and firing again soon but the trend is remarkably similar.

Is Tommy getting ahead of himself or have the opposition worked him?

A big call but maybe Tommy could do with some Casey time with his brother.

Weid is a kid and he will get a bit more time. Expect him to be up and down but he needs to work harder when down.

Trac...undecided on him. I get the feeling he will never be the player we wanted but still be a good player. Just not a great one.

It's time to deliver young Trac, no more teasing.

The mids are a good group but they are believing their own publicity.

Thanks Gary Lyon, we all know Oliver is a star but he doesn't need to drink his own bathwater and he has recently.

Time for them to grow up and also time for Max to focus on his game, he's being pushed around too easily.

You're a big boy Max and you don't need everyone to like you.

Outside run, yeah we all know that. KK may provide some if he gets back to early career form but there's no guarantee there.

Being out of the early picks in the last 2 drafts has hurt and we need to pick some more talent.

Fritsch is class but is only a fringe player at the moment so he needs to give us more this year.

A side note to yesterday...they were up and about.

Did anyone notice how many players ran to Sparrow when he kicked his first AFL goal in his first game? not enough for my liking.

We weren't up for it.

So the question remains...the writing was on the wall for yesterdays game. Is it on the wall going forward?

Will we drop off this year?

 

 

 

That's 5 in a row now.

We've certainly dropped off but can we turn it around?

At least Oliver is back on track...

Just a thought on forward delivery & conversion.

Is it the deliverer, the deliveree or both at fault.

[Micksdemons 131]

Both 

[Binmans PA 25,886]

7 minutes ago, rjay said:

That's 5 in a row now.

We've certainly dropped off but can we turn it around?

At least Oliver is back on track...

Just a thought on forward delivery & conversion.

Is it the deliverer, the deliveree or both at fault.

My concern now is 1) We don't have focal targets and 2) our forward entries are so chaotic they're more unpredictable to our own forwards and we therefore become more predictable to the opposition. 

Our game plan always breaks down in the wet. That's unsustainable. I can't remember when we last won a game in the wet. 

If you look at what we've done over the off season in terms of tweaks, you wonder if we've changed our game style at all.

I'm disappointed in the coaching group at this stage. Tonight's scoreline was the most embarrassing scoreline since 2017 or potentially even the final round of 2016.

[rjay 23,846]

I suspect this is part of our problem...

https://www.theroar.com.au/2009/10/29/the-reasons-behind-hawthorns-ruined-season/

...and maybe a bit of this...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-geelong-turned-the-corner-20160520-gp05om.html

...and then again maybe it's just my MFCSS....or whatever you call it.

I do think the list needs work though and definitely don't see it anywhere near complete as others have said it was.

We've worked to bolster the defence but have neglected the forward half and let a pretty decent player go without replacement.

[TRIGON 4,712]

15 hours ago, rjay said:

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by TRIGON
What I wrote was just drivel; even by my standards! How do you delete a post?

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 5,786]

14 hours ago, A F said:

My concern now is 1) We don't have focal targets and 2) our forward entries are so chaotic they're more unpredictable to our own forwards and we therefore become more predictable to the opposition. 

Our game plan always breaks down in the wet. That's unsustainable. I can't remember when we last won a game in the wet. 

If you look at what we've done over the off season in terms of tweaks, you wonder if we've changed our game style at all.

I'm disappointed in the coaching group at this stage. Tonight's scoreline was the most embarrassing scoreline since 2017 or potentially even the final round of 2016.

We can't play in the wet full stop.

[beelzebub 22,225]

2 hours ago, TRIGON said:

 

You can't anymore

[Binmans PA 25,886]

2 hours ago, rjay said:

I suspect this is part of our problem...

https://www.theroar.com.au/2009/10/29/the-reasons-behind-hawthorns-ruined-season/

...and maybe a bit of this...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-geelong-turned-the-corner-20160520-gp05om.html

...and then again maybe it's just my MFCSS....or whatever you call it.

I do think the list needs work though and definitely don't see it anywhere near complete as others have said it was.

We've worked to bolster the defence but have neglected the forward half and let a pretty decent player go without replacement.

Look, I think both of those articles have a bit to do with it. It's very heartening to read Clarkson discuss it in 2009 and how injuries curtailed their premiership defence. What I find frustrating about this is we didn't even make a Grand Final. In that sense, we probably resemble Geelong a little closer, although situations are always a little different. I was thinking last night as another easy Geelong goal flew through in front of us that Geelong's 2007 was relatively similar to the start of our 2019 campaign. Big things were expected of them and they came out and lost their first game to the Bulldogs by a similar margin to our Port defeat. The next week they came out and buried a weakened Carlton and started their great run, and the rest is history. 

Absolutely our list needs work, but even when you've filled all your holes, you can never stand still in a professional environment like the AFL. It must be about constant improvement and Clarkson has shown the way here. 

Having watched our first two rounds now, I think we should be mixing the control game style with less chaos. We have KK and Salem, Hibberd and May, who are all good kicks of the football. Even Oscar isn't terrible. We need to use the athletic attributes of your favourite Frost, Hunt, Hibberd and KK to spread the opposition and make them work to get the ball back off us. Short of going backwards from centre stoppages, we need to value possession a lot more. If we can spread the opposition more, we can drastically improve our forward entries when the time is right in the play, instead of allowing teams to sit back in the holes like Geelong did last night.

Problem is, we haven't really played the control game style since Roos and I wonder if it goes against Goodwin's DNA.