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1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

Maybe the mids can start kicking it to where he is running and not over his head so much 

 

15 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

No, he runs under the ball.

 

It's a bit of both sometimes but generally I'd say it's more to do with the quality of ball coming in to our key forwards.

It's a concern I have for this season and have always had. Game-style wise, we're fairly one dimensional.

We rely on grunt and contested ball winning and have recruited players who fit that mould. Unfortunately it has resulted in players who are not so strong with their ball-use.

Brayshaw is the perfect example, if you go back and watch the Brisbane game you'll see that most of his forward entries were actually more advantageous to the opposition backmen and the same went for the Richmond game. A prolific ball winner, but generally he kicks to bad spots or misjudges his kick when going long which made it very difficult for Tom and Sam to play to their strengths in the JLT.

I'll have no concerns with the amount of ball we'll win in the midfield against Port on the weekend, but it's going to get quite annoying if we see no improvement in connection from mid to forward from players like Petracca, Brayshaw, ANB etc.

As great as it is that Gus is back playing his natural position and winning ball, he is not hurting opposition with his ball movement on most occasions and I'd like to see that change.

 

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The same can be said for many of our players who drop off significantly in any area of their games.

ANB is another perfect example. I'm completely aware of the role he plays within our team. He is a high pressure and gut running half forward who creates an outnumber at contests. But when his skills are as down as they were for both JLT games, he is rendered useless imo because he is giving the ball back to opposition.

Too many were down in certain aspects of their games against Brissy which is why they got us in the end. Whether it's Oscar not being able to halve enough contests, ANB being way down with his skills, Gus and Petracca not being damaging enough with their ball use, it all adds up.

During this flag window (next 3-5 years) we need to find individual consistency in game day performance so that if players like Oliver, Viney, Gawn, T-Mac or Jetta have down days, we have others playing high level footy that ultimately get us over the line in games.

All the great teams of previous years have had this.

We're still young and there's still a lot of growth left.

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19 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

As great as it is that Gus is back playing his natural position and winning ball, he is not hurting opposition with his ball movement on most occasions and I'd like to see that change.

 

Fully agree with this, and I got roasted here for saying something similar recently. The cop out of "his disposal isn't going to be great as he is constantly disposing of the footy under pressure" was floated and I think that is ridiculous. The thing is, smart ball placement for attacking kicks can't always be taught and we may be looking at the best version of Gussy we'll get right now (which I still love FWIW). 

I'm still hopeful that KK can fill the connection void between mid and forward as I doubt our ball winning grunts have the scope to improve in that area meaningfully. 

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15 minutes ago, Smokey said:

Fully agree with this, and I got roasted here for saying something similar recently. The cop out of "his disposal isn't going to be great as he is constantly disposing of the footy under pressure" was floated and I think that is ridiculous. The thing is, smart ball placement for attacking kicks can't always be taught and we may be looking at the best version of Gussy we'll get right now (which I still love FWIW). 

I'm still hopeful that KK can fill the connection void between mid and forward as I doubt our ball winning grunts have the scope to improve in that area meaningfully. 

Yep.

Demonland is a place of extremism. If you give criticism, you must be a hater. 

Kicking to the advantage of a forward is obviously very different to a lace out pass, which is different to kicking to a contest, which is again different to kicking to a contest to the advantage of an opposition player. And there are in between kicks in all of that too.

With or without pressure, our players need to be smarter with ball in hand.

Jones made the change after a couple of years in the system and Brayshaw needs to follow suit along with a few others.

Edited by stevethemanjordan
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28 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

 

It's a bit of both sometimes but generally I'd say it's more to do with the quality of ball coming in to our key forwards.

It's a concern I have for this season and have always had. Game-style wise, we're fairly one dimensional.

We rely on grunt and contested ball winning and have recruited players who fit that mould. Unfortunately it has resulted in players who are not so strong with their ball-use.

 

I agree our game plan is relatively one dimensional, though I'm not so sure i agree that it is an issue for us. What i wholeheartedly agree is that we have weakness with our kicking skills. To me it is our biggest weakness.

They have absolutely prioritized grunt over skill in their drafting and trading, and i said at the time i was bit surprised they went with say swallow rather than a player with better foot skills (though perhaps one wasn't out there).

Our approach of kicking long to 20 metres out from goal , usually to a big pack was on full display in the JLT. This approach  doesn't necessarily require brilliant kicks but it does require good decision makers (ie when not to go with that approach and instead hit up a target) and players who can put the ball in a landing spot that advantages our forwards. Which as i have noted before is much underrated skill and we pretty hopeless at it.

And yes Gus is one player that struggles with it. So is Jones, ANB, Hunt and several other key players who we rely on for the majority of our inside 50s. Trac on the other hand is really good at it as rule, but often he is inside 50 and Melk is in the same boat. 

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13 minutes ago, binman said:

I agree our game plan is relatively one dimensional, though I'm not so sure i agree that it is an issue for us. What i wholeheartedly agree is that we have weakness with our kicking skills. To me it is our biggest weakness.

And yes Gus is one player that struggles with it. So is Jones, ANB, Hunt and several other key players who we rely on for the majority of our inside 50s. Trac on the other hand is really good at it as rule, but often he is inside 50 and Melk is in the same boat. 

When teams match us at "our" game, (winning ball at the coalface) then we generally struggle. See Brissy in JLT, West Coast Prelim, Collingwood Queen's bday last year etc.

We were able to come back against Hawthorn after half time of the semi because of our talent. They were also missing Jaeger.

I just want to see us evolve so that if teams do match it with us in the middle of the ground, we have some other ways of winning. The game requires that.

And I'm not sure you can put Jones in the same category as those others you've mentioned. Last year was the first year I saw him drop off a little with his ball use. Years gone by he has been a really smart kick which was almost always kicked to the advantage of a leading forward.

 

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1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

A prolific ball winner, but generally he kicks to bad spots or misjudges his kick when going long

It's an area of his game I expect will improve and it does need work.

I'm sure he's aware of it...

He's coming in to this year with only 58 games under his belt so he has time on his side.

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32 minutes ago, binman said:

I agree our game plan is relatively one dimensional, though I'm not so sure i agree that it is an issue for us. What i wholeheartedly agree is that we have weakness with our kicking skills. To me it is our biggest weakness.

They have absolutely prioritized grunt over skill in their drafting and trading, and i said at the time i was bit surprised they went with say swallow rather than a player with better foot skills (though perhaps one wasn't out there).

Our approach of kicking long to 20 metres out from goal , usually to a big pack was on full display in the JLT. This approach  doesn't necessarily require brilliant kicks but it does require good decision makers (ie when not to go with that approach and instead hit up a target) and players who can put the ball in a landing spot that advantages our forwards. Which as i have noted before is much underrated skill and we pretty hopeless at it.

And yes Gus is one player that struggles with it. So is Jones, ANB, Hunt and several other key players who we rely on for the majority of our inside 50s. Trac on the other hand is really good at it as rule, but often he is inside 50 and Melk is in the same boat. 

They did a drill today that was one weighted kick to a player cutting on a 45 backwards lead from half back to the wing, then a long flat 40m kick to a leading forward 40m from goal. That's a different approach.

The reality is the best way to score is to go quick from half back, get the ball forward and either score or lock it in and create those repeat entries. Going slow from half back/midfield when you get a chance gets you no where. Even the precision Hawks were bombing it last year because speed of entry meant more than precision.

As for our overall kicking skills:
-The first choice back 7 are all above average kicks.
- The hope surely is Gus, Harmes, Tracc, Oliver all improve and if they keep finding the ball they should. Harmes took a step forward last year and Brayshaw is the main one who gets the ball on the outside and needs to stop butchering it. No more left foot heaves when running in open space, save them from where they are useful in congestion.
- Fritsch, Kolodjasnij, Spargo are 3 efforts to bring in more skills to the inside 50's. Get them the ball on the wing and half forward and good things will happen
- Baker is more speed than precision kicking but line breaking run creates the same inside 50 benefit that good skills do. Jordon is a lovely kick who could play half forward or wing if not half back. Hannan can hit targets. Chandler and Lockhart have potential from what I've seen as nice kicks. 

I'd like to improve the kicking but a good crumbing forward would make the messy forward entries better and getting back on topic a good crumber would pair really well with Weid. 

Getting more run and spread to open space from a contest will help the inside 50's too. Throwing numbers at the contest against the good teams really hurt us last year.

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I thought a forward running under the ball would normally be the fault of the kicker. Forwards are taught to hit their leads at full possible pace. If they do that then it becomes pretty difficult to pull up if the delivering kick is crappy.

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It finally clicked for Collingwood in the finals last year when rather than just bombing it in, they kicked it to a spot in front of Mason Cox which allowed him to run and jump at it. They took height off the kick and kind of just 'popped' it to him a bit lower and flat, allowing him to get a little separation from his man and if needed the ball was kicked on top of the head of an opponent which allowed Cox to jump all over them.

With Weid's jump and reach we should be doing the same thing. So often it's just bombed and it comes down on top of him which is easy for the opposition to spoil and nudge him off just a little if needed.

If we lay it up properly he either gets a good run at it and will crash the pack at the very least, and if he's blocked before he gets to the ball he gets a free kick. Pretty simple but it seems we're instructed to just get it in as quickly as possible.

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4 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

No, he runs under the ball.

 

4 hours ago, In Harmes Way said:

No, the ball just keeps going over his head.

 

Hmmm .. maybe we can find some middle ground that will please everyone. Such as ... Weideman is no good and nor are our midfielders.

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22 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

 

 

Hmmm .. maybe we can find some middle ground that will please everyone. Such as ... Weideman is no good and nor are our midfielders.

 

In a few days, all will be revealed - I hope our JLT form is just that and not season proper form line. We now have injury and suspensions that will mean we don't hit round 1 with our best possible team. Everyone will need to perform including Weid if we are to put the first win on the board this week  

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3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

1. When teams match us at "our" game, (winning ball at the coalface) then we generally struggle. See Brissy in JLT, West Coast Prelim, Collingwood Queen's bday last year etc.

 

2. And I'm not sure you can put Jones in the same category as those others you've mentioned. Last year was the first year I saw him drop off a little with his ball use. Years gone by he has been a really smart kick which was almost always kicked to the advantage of a leading forward.

 

1. That's partly true. I think though teams have to do more than match us in contested ball to beat us, they have to surpass us in that area, as was the case in the examples you give. But even if we were to employ a modified game plan if we don't bring the 'Melbourne' style we are in trouble. But the reality is teams rarely match us and we back our model in. 

But for me the answer is not a modified game plan - it is better skills. We waste way too many forward 50 entries because of poor kicks in and poor decisions. Exacerbating this issue is that we turn the ball over too often at HB or through the middle of the ground.

A perfect example is the hawks semi. You're right they matched our grunt but we should have been 5 goals up at half time. We weren't because we wasted so many inside 50s and had some howlers where we gave the ball back, trurninbg potential attacks into Hawks shots on goals.   

 2. Yep you're right. I was probably being a bit hard on Jones. He has absolutely improved his kicking and is now one of our more reliable kicks, though i still think he makes some poor decisions going inside 50 sometimes. 

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3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

They did a drill today that was one weighted kick to a player cutting on a 45 backwards lead from half back to the wing, then a long flat 40m kick to a leading forward 40m from goal. That's a different approach.

The reality is the best way to score is to go quick from half back, get the ball forward and either score or lock it in and create those repeat entries. Going slow from half back/midfield when you get a chance gets you no where. Even the precision Hawks were bombing it last year because speed of entry meant more than precision.

As for our overall kicking skills:
-The first choice back 7 are all above average kicks.
- The hope surely is Gus, Harmes, Tracc, Oliver all improve and if they keep finding the ball they should. Harmes took a step forward last year and Brayshaw is the main one who gets the ball on the outside and needs to stop butchering it. No more left foot heaves when running in open space, save them from where they are useful in congestion.
- Fritsch, Kolodjasnij, Spargo are 3 efforts to bring in more skills to the inside 50's. Get them the ball on the wing and half forward and good things will happen
- Baker is more speed than precision kicking but line breaking run creates the same inside 50 benefit that good skills do. Jordon is a lovely kick who could play half forward or wing if not half back. Hannan can hit targets. Chandler and Lockhart have potential from what I've seen as nice kicks. 

I'd like to improve the kicking but a good crumbing forward would make the messy forward entries better and getting back on topic a good crumber would pair really well with Weid. 

Getting more run and spread to open space from a contest will help the inside 50's too. Throwing numbers at the contest against the good teams really hurt us last year.

Good post.

Speed of movement is absolutely the key to our game plan.

Good to hear they are practicing another mode of entry. It is is important to remember they are still a team putting all of the pieces together and need to get each piece right before adding another.

I agree on the need for a good crumber. Would make bombs in much, much more dangerous. I'm not sold yet spargo is that crumber. Really we need Jeffy to get back to his best but that is a long way from a certainty. Could Sparrow play that role?

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This thread to me highlights the anxiety for some folk about what we have as our forward stocks... which is fair enough, so ill keep this reductionist.

What is pass mark for Sam this year?

 Me: 2 goals a game avg: 2 score involvements and creating space for TMAC.

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6 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

This thread to me highlights the anxiety for some folk about what we have as our forward stocks... which is fair enough, so ill keep this reductionist.

What is pass mark for Sam this year?

 Me: 2 goals a game avg: 2 score involvements and creating space for TMAC.

For me 30 goals and providing a genuine contest and tackle pressure is a pass.  

2 or more goals a game would be a distinction.

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On 2/14/2019 at 9:58 PM, Wrecker45 said:

I’m going to be very unpopular here and say i’m not convinced.

He is good at ground level but in the air I don’t see it.

Even in that final the marks he took fell to him and he didn’t take them cleanly.

i’m hoping it’s a strength thing and he proves me wrong with a greater upper body.

 

His final performance was amazing, but so was Tom Boyd’s GF.

We gotta be careful making that game the benchmark; and rather what is possible for KPP that won’t fill out for another 2 years.

I will take his 6 and 7 out of 10 games in 19/20; over the 2 and 8 out of 10 games that Hogan may have provided.  Don’t know if the inpatient supporter base will.

 

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On 3/19/2019 at 1:10 PM, Moonshadow said:

And win a Norm Smith.....

And a Coleman?

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15 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

This thread to me highlights the anxiety for some folk about what we have as our forward stocks... which is fair enough, so ill keep this reductionist.

What is pass mark for Sam this year?

 Me: 2 goals a game avg: 2 score involvements and creating space for TMAC.

So better than Hogan!  Hogan career 2.1 goals per game & 0.6 goal assists.

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16 hours ago, binman said:

Good post.

Speed of movement is absolutely the key to our game plan.

Good to hear they are practicing another mode of entry. It is is important to remember they are still a team putting all of the pieces together and need to get each piece right before adding another.

I agree on the need for a good crumber. Would make bombs in much, much more dangerous. I'm not sold yet spargo is that crumber. Really we need Jeffy to get back to his best but that is a long way from a certainty. Could Sparrow play that role?

Agree DeeSpencer post was good.

Give Spargo some time, last year was first season after interrupted pre season, so hopefully this year will be better. 

I would like to see Clarry kick more, as he is a smart ball user.

Dangerfield & Martin both have very average disposal efficiency rating, due to pressure when kicking, and this impacts our mids as well. Disapppointing part is when player is clear and gives it to opposition, ANB, AVB, Hunt and Brayshaw at times are guilty. 

As DeeSpencer highlighted KK, Fritsch, Spargo, Melksham, all use ball well, most of the backs are good, Weid smart with ball in hand, so we should be improving.

Some players like TMac & Hunt probably better near goals, get ball go for goal, nothing to think about.

As highest scoring team last year, only need some small improvements to make a big difference.

Go Dees can’t wait for Saturday!

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1 hour ago, ManDee said:

So better than Hogan!  Hogan career 2.1 goals per game & 0.6 goal assists.

Oh! Well, thanks for the reality slap there @ManDee - maybe I’m still caught in the late 80’s early 90’s full forward expectations. 

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On 3/20/2019 at 4:12 PM, binman said:

1. That's partly true. I think though teams have to do more than match us in contested ball to beat us, they have to surpass us in that area, as was the case in the examples you give. But even if we were to employ a modified game plan if we don't bring the 'Melbourne' style we are in trouble.

 

On 3/20/2019 at 4:12 PM, binman said:

But for me the answer is not a modified game plan - it is better skills.

I agree. now we've built our platform Melbourne style of hard at it contested footy.   We do not need to change away from this,  but rather add better and better skilled players along the pathway,  doing the same style.

Growth via culture,  and attrition,  as players overtake one another, for spots.

But the old NoN-Negotiable is ???

... contested footy.   physical play.  effort.

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On 3/18/2019 at 2:38 AM, 58er said:

Assustance in goals will come from 

Tommy Mac 50/60 

Smithy 30/35

Milkshake 30

Trac 30 (if accuracy more maybe)

ANB 25 easy goals 

AVB 20 tough goals

Pruess anD Maxy 25 marking/kicking goals.

Clarry/Angus resting 20 plus depending upon time up forward.

and crumbers Spargs Jeffy Hannan And say Chandler/Bedford  Hunty 35 or more total.

Versatile players like wingers and other mids Stretch Jack V Jonesy Salem will also feature.

 

Scenes when OMac bags his first though. 

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On 3/21/2019 at 9:19 AM, D4Life said:

Agree DeeSpencer post was good.

Give Spargo some time, last year was first season after interrupted pre season, so hopefully this year will be better. 

I would like to see Clarry kick more, as he is a smart ball user.

Dangerfield & Martin both have very average disposal efficiency rating, due to pressure when kicking, and this impacts our mids as well. Disapppointing part is when player is clear and gives it to opposition, ANB, AVB, Hunt and Brayshaw at times are guilty. 

As DeeSpencer highlighted KK, Fritsch, Spargo, Melksham, all use ball well, most of the backs are good, Weid smart with ball in hand, so we should be improving.

Some players like TMac & Hunt probably better near goals, get ball go for goal, nothing to think about.

As highest scoring team last year, only need some small improvements to make a big difference.

Go Dees can’t wait for Saturday!

Your comment your comment on TMac partly correct "get ball go for goal" was shown so many times as his accuracy surprised most. However one of his strengths was his ability to run his opponents off their feet through endurance running. Hunt also has a speed factor as he ran away from offensively or up to defensively opponents applying pressure. Weird seemed to display some of both initial speed and some endurance.

i reckon a mobile forward churn with the players rotating and dragging their opponents out of their structures and into mis matches is what we are now capable of. Other teams have done this to us and we have not seemed to be able to use our resources so effectively in the past.

with Gawn or resting tall and small crumbers  and mids swarming into the forward area there can be more options created. 

I like the personnel, I will watch the structure and hope that skill levels are there. I am always concerned about our ability to retain structure and skill under intense pressure. I hope we have trained for that intensity as I think we will now attract greater intensity from our opponents.

We are in for an even more exciting year. GO DEES!!!

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    Discussion of all the other games that don't involve the Demons in Round 03 ... READ MORE

    Demonland | Round 03

  • Match Preview      

    DEPTH CHARGE by Whispering Jack

    The jubilation on the coach’s face as he danced a celebratory jig by the playing bench after the final siren sounded to record his team’s four-point victory over the Demons when the teams last met, said it all ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 27

  • Latest Podcast      

    PODCAST: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The boys dissected the clinical thrashing of Hawks praising the immense performance of Christian Petracca whilst lamenting the injury toll to our defensive unit ... LISTEN

    Demonland | March 26

  • Training  

    Monday, 25th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Demon Dynasty & Kev Martin were trackside at Gosch's Paddock today to bring you their observations from training ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • Casey Report      

    HIBERNATING by KC from Casey

    When they locked up the rooms for summer at the end of last year’s football season, the rooms gathered cobwebs, the atmosphere became dense and the place developed a sleepy feel. They opened up the rooms to let Casey out to play on Sunday but the team was still hibernating and they missed the bulk of the opening quarter ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • PreGame      

    PREGAME: Rd 03 vs Port Adelaide

    The Demons head out on the road for the next 2 weeks as they travel to Adelaide to play Port on Saturday and then have a 5 Day break before facing the Crows in Gather Round. With injuries to May and Lever who comes in and who goes out? ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 28

  • Match Report      

    A FORK IN THE HAWK by George on the Outer

    For too long in the past, Demon fans became habitually sick and tired of watching the Hawks hand out thrashings to their side. But Melbourne’s empahtic 55-point win at the MCG on Saturday has truly put a fork in the Hawk and turned that history well and truly on its head ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Post Game      

    POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons cruised to an easy 55 point win over the Hawks at the MCG but but paid a heavy toll on the injury front with Steven May & Jake Lever possibly sidelined for a number of weeks ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Votes      

    VOTES: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    Last week Steven May took the lead in the Demonland Player of the Year Award from Jack Viney. Clayton Oliver & Max Gawn round out the Top 4. Your votes for the win/loss against/to the Hawks. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Game Day      

    GAMEDAY: Round 02 vs Hawthorn

    It's Game Day and after mixed results in the first two weeks of the season the Demons have the opportunity to capitalise on their good form last week when they take on the Hawks at the MCG today ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Training  

    Friday, 22nd March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatcher Kev Martin and I attended the Captain's Run at Gosch's Paddock on this lovely sunny morning to bring you the following observations from the training session ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 22

  • Training  

    Tuesday, 19th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin & Walking Civil War attended Tuesday morning's training session at Gosch's Paddock to bring you the following observations ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 19

  • Training  

    Saturday, 16th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin and Dee Zephyr wandered down to Gosch's Paddock on Saturday morning to bring you their observations from the Captain's Run in the lead up to Sunday's Round One match against the Bulldogs ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 16

  • Farewell  

    Angus Brayshaw Retires

    After 167 games including the drought breaking Premiership Angus Brayshaw has made the heart breaking decision to medically retire from football as a result of a series of serious head knocks over his nearly decade of footy. We wish Gus all the best and he'll always be a hero at Demonland ... READ MORE

    Demonland | February 22

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Koltyn Tholstrup Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club’s newest recruit Koltyn Tholstrup to have a chat about his journey from the farm to the Demons, his first few weeks of preseason training, which Dees have impressed him on the track and his aspirations of playing Round 1 ... LISTEN

    Demonland | December 14

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Jason Taylor Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club's National Recruitment Manager Jason Taylor to have a chat about our Trade and Draft period, our newest recruits, our recent recruits who have yet to debut as well as those father son prospects on the horizon ... LISTEN

    Demonland | November 27

  • Next Match 

    .

    Round 03

       vs   

    Saturday 30th March 2024
    @ 07:30pm (AO)

  • MFC Forum  

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  • Topics

  • Injury List  


      PLAYER INJURY LENGTH
    Jake Lever Knee Test
    Clayton Oliver Hand Test
    Oliver Sestan Concussion Test
    Steven May Ribs 1 Week
    Lachie Hunter Calf 1 Week
    Daniel Turner Hip 2-3 Weeks
    Charlie Spargo Achilles 2-4 Weeks
    Shane McAdam Hamstring 3-5 Weeks
    Jake Bowey Shoulder 7 Weeks
    Jake Melksham ACL 12-14 Weeks
    Joel Smith Suspension TBA

  • Player of the Year  


        PLAYER VOTES
    1 Christian Petracca 27
    2 Steven May 25
    3 Max Gawn 21
    4 Jack Viney 20
    5 Bayley Fritsch 19
    6 Clayton Oliver 18
    7 Christian Salem 12
    8 Blake Howes 11
    9 Jack Billings 10
    9 Alex Neal-Bullen 10

        FULL TABLE
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