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Diamond_Jim

List Management- Hawks have 31 players out of contract end of 2019

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Interesting AFL article (below) reporting that Hawthorn has 31 players out of contract at the end of 2019.

Would be great if someone could analyse that list to say how of many of the best say 25 are out of contract.

Our approach and that of most clubs is to have rolling renewals of around one third each year. Sounds logical. (Collingwood have 29 coming out of contract.)

I wonder if the Hawthorn situation was accidental or planned.

"JAEGER O'Meara, Jarryd Roughead, Grant Birchall and potential captains Liam Shiels and Ben Stratton headline Hawthorn's AFL-most 31 players set to come out of contract next year.

That figure is two more than Collingwood's unsigned group ahead of its 2018 campaign and includes 2014 premiership player Will Langford, who remains on the Hawks' list, but has retired.

Flag stars Shaun Burgoyne, James Frawley, Ben McEvoy and Paul Puopolo, club champion runner-up Blake Hardwick and teenage cult hero James Worpel are also in line for fresh deals."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/dec/07/jose-mourinho-manchester-united-relegation

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Clubs often have a large number OOC, but that is huge. Suspect they'll contract up the majority before too long

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8 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Clubs often have a large number OOC, but that is huge. Suspect they'll contract up the majority before too long

it's certainly a lot.

The usual number would be 15 or less which makes 31 as you say "huge".

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As I understand it Hawthorn also have the oldest list with the most number of players over 30 years old, so I'd say that has the most to do with it.  The aging nature of their list is a problem in it's self and I'm really hoping that they fall off a cliff over the next two years ... but don't quite hit the bottom too hard.

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Just check out the below link:

http://m.hawthornfc.com.au/news/2018-11-21/our-list-by-the-numbers

I count 8, possibly 9 of their best 22 will be 30 or over sometime in the next 12 months, then there is also a fare bunch of them sitting in the age group just below that Luke Breust (28), Liam Shiels (27), Jack Gunston (27), David Mirra (27) ,Jonathan Ceglar (27).  Even $cully is 27 these days, with a pretty clapped out body.

No wonder they were so keen to off load Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis, they are facing a playing list armageddon.  When you look at the list of players they have (or don't have) comming through, the cupboard looks pretty bare for the Hawks and makes it look even more strange trading Burton for Wingard.  Talking to a Hawks supporter I know the other day, he was quite disappointed by loosing Burton, because he though that was a player they could build their backline around.

Addmitedly, not all the Hawks over 30s will retire at the end of this season, but their output will certainly start to wane and it's hard to see any of them being there any more that another two or three years.  This will really test the mastermind Clarkson - I think they are in for a long hard road to rebuild as they will not have much to trade their way back into the game with other clubs and I just hope that free agency doesn't become their savior either.

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27 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Admittedly, not all the Hawks over 30s will retire at the end of this season, but their output will certainly start to wane and it's hard to see any of them being there any more that another two or three years.  This will really test the mastermind Clarkson - I think they are in for a long hard road to rebuild as they will not have much to trade their way back into the game with other clubs and I just hope that free agency doesn't become their savior either.

That and the "i want to go only to club xyz" which has become the mantra for players of any seniority when they want to change clubs

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1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

Clubs often have a large number OOC, but that is huge. Suspect they'll contract up the majority before too long

Alternatively, the rediscovery of the joys of 'cherry picking' do loom against Whoreform in many ways with so many out of contract. Again, you'd reckon that we got in early and got one of the best - big, ripe and ready - in football superlative terms - in the Hawks  gerontological array of players - in Jordan the Lewis. It is still proving that somewhat, Whoreform picked the wrong one to clear at the time.

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12 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

That and the "i want to go only to club xyz" which has become the mantra for players of any seniority when they want to change clubs

Agreed.  And on a similar note, whilst I didn't pay close attention to how it all played out, the way one of the Adelaide clubs was spruiking that they would poach back the SA born players off the Queensland clubs with low draft picks was pretty ordanary.  I thought it was pretty [censored] weak that the AFL didn't respond strongly to that, particularly when the whole comp has put so much capital into getting the club's going in the expansion states.

The extra suplemental super trade period is another chip away at equalisation and the draft.

Their supporters will hate it, but clubs like Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, West Coast and Adelaide really deserve to do their time proping up the bottom half of the ladder and anything that makes that possibility less likely is just pure evil.

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12 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Alternatively, the rediscovery of the joys of 'cherry picking' do loom against Whoreform in many ways with so many out of contract. Again, you'd reckon that we got in early and got one of the best - big, ripe and ready - in football superlative terms - in the Hawks  gerontological array of players - in Jordan the Lewis. It is still proving that somewhat, Whoreform picked the wrong one to clear at the time.

Luke Breust or Jack Gunston are ones that I'd like us to get from them at the right price i.e. cheap as chips - free agents or a pick in the 70s if the opportunity arose.  

Perhaps even someone like James Sicily might present as a free agency opportunity for us or someone else in a few years time.  I don't even care if he ended up at Brisbane, Gold Coast, North or someone like that, it would be good if someone could turn the tables on Hawthorn and rob them of their mature tallent.

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RBG.. will be very interesting to see how it plays out with Tim Kelly of Geelong at the end of 2019 re his wanting to return to the Eagles.

Must say I feel for anyone drafted to play for the Suns..empty stadiums.. no buzz..etc plus a feeling I suspect of every player for themselves.

PS Gunston has an enormous sense of being in the right place in the forward line. In the last two years his accuracy seems to have decreased but still a dangerous player as his 3:8 in the finals against us showed.

Edited by Diamond_Jim

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4 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Luke Breust or Jack Gunston are ones that I'd like us to get from them at the right price i.e. cheap as chips - free agents or a pick in the 70s if the opportunity arose.  

Perhaps even someone like James Sicily might present as a free agency opportunity for us or someone else in a few years time.  I don't even care if he ended up at Brisbane, Gold Coast, North or someone like that, it would be good if someone could turn the tables on Hawthorn and rob them of their mature tallent.

Sicily is the most over rayed player in the AFL, he average 6.6 turnover a game, is easily beaten 1 on 1 and is easily put off his game with a few choice words.

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46 minutes ago, don't make me angry said:

Sicily is the most over rayed player in the AFL, he average 6.6 turnover a game, is easily beaten 1 on 1 and is easily put off his game with a few choice words.

You may well be right, I haven't watch him that closely, other than  noticing that we pretty much completely shut him down in the final we played them.

I thought that he must have been a bloody champion, because he played for Hawthorn.  I guess it fits the media's narative pretty well of the Hawks regeneration of their list with a crop of guns comming through.

I don't care if we don't get him then, but it would be good if someone picked up, just to derive Hawthorn.  Who are their good young players then?

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2 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

Sicily is the most over rayed player in the AFL, he average 6.6 turnover a game, is easily beaten 1 on 1 and is easily put off his game with a few choice words.

Sicily is also easy to dislike. In my top five memorable moments from the Geelong and Hawthorn finals was Melksham’s last quarter mark against the Hawks and Petracca’s subsequent laughing  pisstake towards Sicily (from 15.46)

 

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Footywire keep a list that isn't always accurate (see Kade Kolo listed for us) but is a rough guide.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/out_of_contract_players?year=2019

Teams in transition will have the most - Carl, Gold Coast as young sides, the Hawks going through a rebuild.

Richmond have a lot and are being aggressive with the Lynch move to bring in such a big money guy that they need flexibility. That's a new model that could be dangerous for a club with retention issues that goes all in and gets caught out. Good culture and a fair payment model is important.

For the Hawks it's the older guys that blow out their numbers
Veterans: McEvoy, Stratton, Frawley, Birchall, Burgoyne, Roughead, Puopolo, Henderson

I think all of those guys are 30 or close to 30. That means some tough decisions. Most teams have half the number in that age bracket at most.

Otherwise I think they are pretty standard. A number of important signatures they have to get. Some depth types they keep on one year deals, some will stay, some will go. Kids on initial contracts or rookies that are pretty easy to sign up.


Best 22: Mitchell, O'Meara, Hardwick, Shiels
Depth: Mirra, Ceglar, Schoenmakers, Mohr, Minchington, Miles, O'Brien
Youth: CJ, Greaves, Glass, Moore, Ross, Cousins, Worpel, Pittonet, Golds
Salary Cap: Langford

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6 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

As I understand it Hawthorn also have the oldest list with the most number of players over 30 years old, so I'd say that has the most to do with it.  The aging nature of their list is a problem in it's self and I'm really hoping that they fall off a cliff over the next two years ... but don't quite hit the bottom too hard.

Yep, exactly. Despite what Collingwood say too, their best 22 is very old. It's why our list is so exciting. Our best 20+ are majority 24 and under.

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5 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

That and the "i want to go only to club xyz" which has become the mantra for players of any seniority when they want to change clubs

 

5 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Alternatively, the rediscovery of the joys of 'cherry picking' do loom against Whoreform in many ways with so many out of contract. Again, you'd reckon that we got in early and got one of the best - big, ripe and ready - in football superlative terms - in the Hawks  gerontological array of players - in Jordan the Lewis. It is still proving that somewhat, Whoreform picked the wrong one to clear at the time.

The logical direction FA is going for Hawthorn and Melbourne is that we start to become even more of a destination club and players second guess wanting to go to Hawthorn - particularly if Hawthorn fail to make the 8 next year.

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7 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Their supporters will hate it, but clubs like Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, West Coast and Adelaide really deserve to do their time proping up the bottom half of the ladder and anything that makes that possibility less likely is just pure evil.

Hawthorn have been ruthless in trading out to get guys in to refresh the list, but they are reaching an age profile crunch.

Sydney have for years received concessions to help out from the AFL (COLA, exclusive NSW and Riverina zones etc) that have been reduced lately, but their academy zones are still a big advantage that the only the other 3 northern teams match. The NGA zones the rest of us get are very much a second rate effort.

Geelong are the ones who have taken the most advantage of free agency. They take the p***. Enough said.

Adelaide and West Coast have received nothing from the AFL as far as concessions. If they are successful it is because they recruit better and as a whole are more professional as a club. Compare WC to Fremantle and Adelaide to Port. But you are wrong in your statement re WC needing to take its turn propping up the ladder. Since 2008 WC have 1 x Premiership, 1 x wooden spoon, 1 x 2nd, 1 x 2nd bottom, 6 x finals appearances, 5 x missed out. That is equalisation and taking their turn.

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1 hour ago, Aus in Engerland said:

Since 2008 WC have 1 x Premiership, 1 x wooden spoon, 1 x 2nd, 1 x 2nd bottom, 6 x finals appearances, 5 x missed out. That is equalisation and taking their turn.

No, some of that was tanking...or conveniently bottoming out to refresh the list if you like.

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3 hours ago, Aus in Engerland said:

Adelaide and West Coast have received nothing from the AFL as far as concessions. If they are successful it is because they recruit better and as a whole are more professional as a club. Compare WC to Fremantle and Adelaide to Port. But you are wrong in your statement re WC needing to take its turn propping up the ladder. Since 2008 WC have 1 x Premiership, 1 x wooden spoon, 1 x 2nd, 1 x 2nd bottom, 6 x finals appearances, 5 x missed out. That is equalisation and taking their turn.

West Coast have won 4 premerships in the past 30 years since 1988, including at least one in each decade.  Only Hawthorn has won more premirships in this time.  West has never spent a prolonged period that I can recall languishing around the bottom or out of finals.  Outside of Collingwood they are probably one of the most finacially dominant clubs in the competition and I feel they have used this position, along with being one of only two Western Australian sides to their advantage over the years.  Other than Hawthorn there really isn't another side that deserves some time in the wilderness than West Coast.

Adelaide are just Adelaide, South Australian's etc and it's probably also mainly that I'm still smarting from their undeserved flag in 1998 and loosing Scott Thompson to them that I'd be quite happy for them to struggle for a period as well, but not to the same extent as Hawthorn and West Coast.

Edited by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

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54 minutes ago, rjay said:

No, some of that was tanking...or conveniently bottoming out to refresh the list if you like.

No, as tanking you're thinking of Carlton. WC became rubbish after the loss of Judd, Cousins, Kerr, and Phil Matera along with a few decent defenders. The forward line was already rubbish, consisting of Hansen and Q Lynch.

If that was tanking, they chose the worst possible time to do it. Just at the time when GCS and GWS are entering the competition and ravishing the draft. Even Carlton wasn't that dumb.

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49 minutes ago, Aus in Engerland said:

No, as tanking you're thinking of Carlton. WC became rubbish after the loss of Judd, Cousins, Kerr, and Phil Matera along with a few decent defenders. The forward line was already rubbish, consisting of Hansen and Q Lynch.

If that was tanking, they chose the worst possible time to do it. Just at the time when GCS and GWS are entering the competition and ravishing the draft. Even Carlton wasn't that dumb.

C'mon A in E, the Eagles won the flag in 2006 finished third in 2007 and then raced to second bottom to secure 1 Nic Nat in 2008. They tanked that year mate.

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2 hours ago, 1 red eye 1 blue eye said:

C'mon A in E, the Eagles won the flag in 2006 finished third in 2007 and then raced to second bottom to secure 1 Nic Nat in 2008. They tanked that year mate.

They didn't tank. They already had one of the worst forward lines in the competition. In 2005-7 they had the best midfield of a generation (if not ever) and a great backline. That midfield covered a lot of forward line weakness. If you are getting twice as many I50s in most games and have Cox, Judd, Cousins, Kerr ++ feeding you, even a rubbish forward line will win almost all games. When the midfield imploded at the end of 2007 WC suddenly lost forward supply and the crappy forward line was found wanting. 

Remember, after 2008 they followed it up with an 11th then their only wooden spoon. A look at the playing list absolutely suggests this was where they deserved to finish.

If there was any tanking done in 2008 it was by someone else. Who had the chance to take Nic Nat, but didn't. WC had just had their captain walk out, their best player become a recreational drug addict and their best remaining player miss 1/2 the season due injury.

In 2009 someone lost 6 of the last 7 to not only get pick 1 (again), but also a priority pick, netting both Scully and Trengove.

In 2010 there was no point in tanking as GCS had that draft tied up. Yet WC won the spoon. This period (2008-10) was a time where WC was rudderless, leaderless, internally riven, Ben Cousins scarred and absolutely directionless. The players were demotivated and disinterested. The supporters were angry, in despair and dispirited. 

No tanking, just a club that had totally lost its way. Morale was totally gone, at all levels. If you want to know how bad things were, hunt out the Josh Kennedy interview where he talks about what it was like when he joined the club as part of the Judd deal. No-one would talk to him, no-one would look for him on the lead and he was ignored at training. His nickname at the time was even 'steak knives', the bonus thrown in by Carlton to get the deal done. That's the mood at the club at the time and the reason they finished where they did.

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Just a reminder that we eliminated Hawthorn from the finals.  And Geelong too.

And it wasn't a dream.    🎅

 

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