Should O.Mac and JKH Play A Game For The Dees Again?

[samcantstandya 913]

6 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

JKH unlikely to be with us next year imo. 

Omac is our long term kpd. We are missing Lever and now Hibberd which take the heat off him. That mark and subsequent kick in the last with 1.35min to go showed more maturity than Trac, JKH or Jeffy's efforts in the dying minutes

Petracca should've past it to someone short instead of going long. JKH just panics & Garlett didn't commit. I'm only a fan of Petracca the other 2 annoy me

[Allen Jakovich 516]

13 hours ago, spalding said:

This omac witch hunt is just crap.

the game plan was working at 3 quarter time. We were beating the cats with their preferred system of play - and although Hawkins was dangerous, he was their only forward. Remember Rd 1 - where he was quiet but Menzel and others got off the chain.

tne cats rolled the dice at 3 quarter time and went to all out attack at the stoppages - which worked. Omac was isolated versus Hawkins and got smashed, but just about every full back would have been. He needed more support from either some midfield defence or a spare in the hole. We were too slow to adapt. Hibberd probably would have make a difference here, and been a fair chance to spoil Tuohy. 

i think his first 50 games have at least been the equal of his brother - and his decision making and disposal is much, much better. I wish some of his teammates showed his composure with his mark and kick in the last couple of minutes. 

A couple more years and 5-10 kg and he will be our version of Daniel Talia - who is the cornerstone of the crows defence and an all Australian. 

Tom macdonalds first 50 games were light years ahead of omac. You on some crazy drugs there. Tom mac actually plays the ball as a defender. Omac only does when hes third man in. One on one he gets outbodied or out sprinted every time.

[SFebes 4,692]

Sadly I think JKH is too much of a confidence player, similar to Stretch. JKH is too much of a liability for AFL, at his age he should have improved this by now. Replace at EOY.

Oscar started the season well, anyone remember the article about him re Gorilla minder? haha. Unfortunately he's gone to crap since but has lost Lever and Hibbo, I'm unsure where OMac is at but I do know we need another experienced KPD. He stays in and on the list going forward though.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

15 hours ago, rpfc said:

Oscar is developing ahead of time for a tall back. 

I'm not sure how one can deduce that. Where's the reference point?

All clubs have young key defenders, but every club has a difference in quality, experience and depth in a given line. 

Oscar is being played. He has had to improve because he was bog ordinary in many games last year. Aside from Lever, he is the most experienced key back playing right now. (Frost is not a key back imo). And therein lies the problem. A problem I've been frustrated about since we let Dunn go. 

Whilst I think this thread is fairly ridiculous and don't believe Oscar should be dropped, I do share the frustration that we are still so weak defensively. 

Whether it was Oscar or Frost on the weekend, Tom Hawkins couldn't be contained. That's a problem. Mason Cox couldn't be contained. A problem. Ben Brown couldn't be contained. Problem. 

The ease at which opposition sides continue to score once the ball is inside 50? A problem. 

The coaches have refused to put a mature, big bodied key defender into that defensive group to provide relief and trust for our entire defensive unit. And it is absolutely killing us. Every other side in the top 8 has at least one mature bodied key defender to be that rock. To compete and body up against opposition key forwards. To provide aggression and inspire those around him. 

Maybe Oscar isn't to blame. But the fact we are relying on him to be our pillar is an enormous issue. I'm not sure that can be argued with given the evidence on show. 

[SFebes 4,692]

20 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I'm not sure how one can deduce that. Where's the reference point?

All clubs have young key defenders, but every club has a difference in quality, experience and depth in a given line. 

Oscar is being played. He has had to improve because he was bog ordinary in many games last year. Aside from Lever, he is the most experienced key back playing right now. (Frost is not a key back imo). And therein lies the problem. A problem I've been frustrated about since we let Dunn go. 

Whilst I think this thread is fairly ridiculous and don't believe Oscar should be dropped, I do share the frustration that we are still so weak defensively. 

Whether it was Oscar or Frost on the weekend, Tom Hawkins couldn't be contained. That's a problem. Mason Cox couldn't be contained. A problem. Ben Brown couldn't be contained. Problem. 

The ease at which opposition sides continue to score once the ball is inside 50? A problem. 

The coaches have refused to put a mature, big bodied key defender into that defensive group to provide relief and trust for our entire defensive unit. And it is absolutely killing us. Every other side in the top 8 has at least one mature bodied key defender to be that rock. To compete and body up against opposition key forwards. To provide aggression and inspire those around him. 

Maybe Oscar isn't to blame. But the fact we are relying on him to be our pillar is an enormous issue. I'm not sure that can be argued with given the evidence on show. 

Who would you choose out of Oscar and Jack Henry (another young defender)?

[beelzebub 22,225]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Whether it was Oscar or Frost on the weekend, Tom Hawkins couldn't be contained. That's a problem. Mason Cox couldn't be contained. A problem. Ben Brown couldn't be contained. Problem. 

The ease at which opposition sides continue to score once the ball is inside 50? A problem. 

And here in lies a problem of viewpoints..or styles.   we play a zone style defence...we look to deny the oppo forwards supply.

Those three ( and there are more ) thrive on space. They can also take contested marks. So you need a Gorrilla tamer, someone to MAN up these types.

So irrespective of who we have, we have a problem by design.

[SFebes 4,692]

Anyone now believe me that an experienced KPD is of high priority now?

[poita 3,571]

On 7/22/2018 at 12:40 AM, WERRIDEE said:

Woeful footballers!

You are a tool, and clearly don't understand the game if you think Oscar was responsible for the majority of those goals.

The lack of midfield pressure in the last quarter is one reason. Our guys were out on their feet by the last quarter, and Gawn had a relatively poor night in the ruck. No full back in the competition would have stopped those goals.

Goodwin's continued stupidity in having a loose man in defence who doesn't stand in the hole of front of the opposition full forward is the second reason. Stewart parked himself in front of Hogan for most of the night, and completely negated him. Smith or Frost could certainly have done a similar job for us.

As for JKH, he should have been delisted last season. There was absolutely no reason for him to get a new deal.

[dimmy 1,108]

On 7/22/2018 at 1:04 AM, Demon Jack said:

Bit of an overreaction on OMac. Was in seriously good nick in the first half of the season and was lauded by some on this forum as a potential AA smokey. No, his form lately hasn't been great but the same could be said for our entire back line since Lever's injury. 

J

 

Cannot agree more. Just a couple of weeks ago the same people were lauding the bloke. Fair go !!!!

[WERRIDEE 5,198]

7 hours ago, poita said:

You are a tool, and clearly don't understand the game if you think Oscar was responsible for the majority of those goals.

The lack of midfield pressure in the last quarter is one reason. Our guys were out on their feet by the last quarter, and Gawn had a relatively poor night in the ruck. No full back in the competition would have stopped those goals.

Goodwin's continued stupidity in having a loose man in defence who doesn't stand in the hole of front of the opposition full forward is the second reason. Stewart parked himself in front of Hogan for most of the night, and completely negated him. Smith or Frost could certainly have done a similar job for us.

As for JKH, he should have been delisted last season. There was absolutely no reason for him to get a new deal.

Frost stopped him to one goal. Oscar is to blame, he never uses his body just let Hawkins walk past him all night. If Oscar wasn't to blame then why did they remove him?

[rpfc 27,383]

11 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I'm not sure how one can deduce that. Where's the reference point?

All clubs have young key defenders, but every club has a difference in quality, experience and depth in a given line. 

Oscar is being played. He has had to improve because he was bog ordinary in many games last year. Aside from Lever, he is the most experienced key back playing right now. (Frost is not a key back imo). And therein lies the problem. A problem I've been frustrated about since we let Dunn go. 

Whilst I think this thread is fairly ridiculous and don't believe Oscar should be dropped, I do share the frustration that we are still so weak defensively. 

Whether it was Oscar or Frost on the weekend, Tom Hawkins couldn't be contained. That's a problem. Mason Cox couldn't be contained. A problem. Ben Brown couldn't be contained. Problem. 

The ease at which opposition sides continue to score once the ball is inside 50? A problem. 

The coaches have refused to put a mature, big bodied key defender into that defensive group to provide relief and trust for our entire defensive unit. And it is absolutely killing us. Every other side in the top 8 has at least one mature bodied key defender to be that rock. To compete and body up against opposition key forwards. To provide aggression and inspire those around him. 

Maybe Oscar isn't to blame. But the fact we are relying on him to be our pillar is an enormous issue. I'm not sure that can be argued with given the evidence on show. 

Look, I am a forward who rates midfield as the be-all and end-all of the best footy sides, so it is through this lens that I look at defensive backs. Their role is to minimise the damage; the gorilla tamer so to speak.

With that said - who could contain Hawkins when he is playing like that? A player better than Oscar for sure - but where do we get that player and how much do we pay to get that player. I would prefer we spend the time focusing on how our midfield again allows such movement of the footy through them. The forwards have a part to play too, but we have an excruciating habit of front-running at the minute and it is causing ructions down the line. We don't have a balance and I want to believe it is close to clicking but until then - Oscar and Frost and whoever else are being left more exposed than a team of our talent should leave them...

[samcantstandya 913]

10 hours ago, poita said:

You are a tool, and clearly don't understand the game if you think Oscar was responsible for the majority of those goals.

The lack of midfield pressure in the last quarter is one reason. Our guys were out on their feet by the last quarter, and Gawn had a relatively poor night in the ruck. No full back in the competition would have stopped those goals.

Goodwin's continued stupidity in having a loose man in defence who doesn't stand in the hole of front of the opposition full forward is the second reason. Stewart parked himself in front of Hogan for most of the night, and completely negated him. Smith or Frost could certainly have done a similar job for us.

As for JKH, he should have been delisted last season. There was absolutely no reason for him to get a new deal.

100% agree

[Buzzy 919]

How will Oscar ever develop into a good player when he has the agility of a dead walrus?

Not his fault, but it's just never going to happen for him.  

We're a laughing stock with him as our key.  And what's even worse is there's not much else.  Poor recruiting.  We've had some spuds in this area over the years, Seecamp, Nicholson, Carroll, they've all been a bit NQR.

It's sad to see a recent strength become our biggest weakness.

Season was done the day Lever went down.

[WERRIDEE 5,198]

49 minutes ago, Buzzy said:

How will Oscar ever develop into a good player when he has the agility of a dead walrus?

Not his fault, but it's just never going to happen for him.  

We're a laughing stock with him as our key.  And what's even worse is there's not much else.  Poor recruiting.  We've had some spuds in this area over the years, Seecamp, Nicholson, Carroll, they've all been a bit NQR.

It's sad to see a recent strength become our biggest weakness.

Season was done the day Lever went down.

Give Keilty a go we will never know if he's capable if he never plays. Even the Zac Dawson lovers should realise Oscar is not up to it.

[titan_uranus 22,210]

8 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Give Keilty a go we will never know if he's capable if he never plays. Even the Zac Dawson lovers should realise Oscar is not up to it.

Suppose we should play Filipovic while we're at it?

And remind me again what your thoughts are on us having given JKH a go to see what he was like?

[SFebes 4,692]

9 hours ago, Buzzy said:

How will Oscar ever develop into a good player when he has the agility of a dead walrus?

Not his fault, but it's just never going to happen for him.  

We're a laughing stock with him as our key.  And what's even worse is there's not much else.  Poor recruiting.  We've had some spuds in this area over the years, Seecamp, Nicholson, Carroll, they've all been a bit NQR.

It's sad to see a recent strength become our biggest weakness.

Season was done the day Lever went down.

Oscar was fine with Lever and Hibberd in, he had a great start to the year. It’s understandable he’s under the pump now, our midfield need to defend better also

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

1 hour ago, MSFebey said:

Oscar was fine with Lever and Hibberd in, he had a great start to the year. It’s understandable he’s under the pump now, our midfield need to defend better also

The reason why Oscar was fine with Lever and Hibberd in were because they play a whole team defense not just one on one, we've build our game plan around being able to zone off and come in and intercept or kill the contest rather than leaving someone one out. All good teams do this (Richmond and the Eagles especially). On Saturday night Oscar was left one out all the time, at nearly no point did someone stand come across in front of Hawkins to spoil or intercept - our best  2 at that are Lever and Hibberd. 

Unfortunately J.Smith and Frost don't seem to have the experience or confidence to do that yet and Lewis and Vince aren't natural defenders so don't offer much except being there to run the ball out. 

I wasn't yelling at Oscar to do better when Hawkins was leading into space with the perfect delivery, I was yelling at the other backs to get there and intercept or create a bigger contest - which is exactly what Geelong did to Hogan and TMac all night. Whe you play a zone/team defense you can't blame 1 player after a loss, it'd be like saying we only lost because Jetta let Thouy get to the front to mark (he was his direct opponent).   

[SFebes 4,692]

5 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

The reason why Oscar was fine with Lever and Hibberd in were because they play a whole team defense not just one on one, we've build our game plan around being able to zone off and come in and intercept or kill the contest rather than leaving someone one out. All good teams do this (Richmond and the Eagles especially). On Saturday night Oscar was left one out all the time, at nearly no point did someone stand come across in front of Hawkins to spoil or intercept - our best  2 at that are Lever and Hibberd. 

Unfortunately J.Smith and Frost don't seem to have the experience or confidence to do that yet and Lewis and Vince aren't natural defenders so don't offer much except being there to run the ball out. 

I wasn't yelling at Oscar to do better when Hawkins was leading into space with the perfect delivery, I was yelling at the other backs to get there and intercept or create a bigger contest - which is exactly what Geelong did to Hogan and TMac all night. Whe you play a zone/team defense you can't blame 1 player after a loss, it'd be like saying we only lost because Jetta let Thouy get to the front to mark (he was his direct opponent).   

I agree with you mate, Oscar was let down by poor coaching and leadership. With only one key forward he should've been two teamed like Hogan is every week or someone (Lewis) should have dropped into the hole, how it was left alone all night is a joke tbh.

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

24 minutes ago, MSFebey said:

I agree with you mate, Oscar was let down by poor coaching and leadership. With only one key forward he should've been two teamed like Hogan is every week or someone (Lewis) should have dropped into the hole, how it was left alone all night is a joke tbh.

I just hope they learn from last week, while Adelaide have 2 key forward I'd start Frost on Walker and Oscar on Jenkins, I think Oscar has the potential to come over and be the 3rd man and kill the contest against Walker who is more the leading type, than Jenkins who sits out the back waiting. Frost doesn't have the play reading skills to do this, but does have more strength and speed to match one on one.

[SFebes 4,692]

1 minute ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I just hope they learn from last week, while Adelaide have 2 key forward I'd start Frost on Walker and Oscar on Jenkins, I think Oscar has the potential to come over and be the 3rd man and kill the contest against Walker who is more the leading type, than Jenkins who sits out the back waiting. Frost doesn't have the play reading skills to do this, but does have more strength and speed to match one on one.

Jane Jenkins.

[beelzebub 22,225]

33 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

The reason why Oscar was fine with Lever and Hibberd in were because they play a whole team defense not just one on one, we've build our game plan around being able to zone off and come in and intercept or kill the contest rather than leaving someone one out. All good teams do this (Richmond and the Eagles especially). On Saturday night Oscar was left one out all the time, at nearly no point did someone stand come across in front of Hawkins to spoil or intercept - our best  2 at that are Lever and Hibberd. 

Unfortunately J.Smith and Frost don't seem to have the experience or confidence to do that yet and Lewis and Vince aren't natural defenders so don't offer much except being there to run the ball out. 

I wasn't yelling at Oscar to do better when Hawkins was leading into space with the perfect delivery, I was yelling at the other backs to get there and intercept or create a bigger contest - which is exactly what Geelong did to Hogan and TMac all night. Whe you play a zone/team defense you can't blame 1 player after a loss, it'd be like saying we only lost because Jetta let Thouy get to the front to mark (he was his direct opponent).   

In the main...yep.

THE question to me is...

It's the last QTR.... it's not going well... Hawkins is having a day out... Why would you not put someone on him , wear him like a jumper especially given our normal defending style is leaking like a sieve ??

It beggars belief for mine.

I don't particularly blame Oscar at all.. he has limitations but was doing his best. .. ( thrown under a bus really ... thanks to the box ) 

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

In the main...yep.

THE question to me is...

It's the last QTR.... it's not going well... Hawkins is having a day out... Why would you not put someone on him , wear him like a jumper especially given our normal defending style is leaking like a sieve ??

It beggars belief for mine.

I don't particularly blame Oscar at all.. he has limitations but was doing his best. .. ( thrown under a bus really ... thanks to the box ) 

My question is, why not play a lose in defense who's job is to play 15/20 meters in front of Hawkins and at least kill the easy kick inside 50, make them kick to a contest instead of a lead.

Someone like Fritsch would be perfect, but this is where Lewis or Vince need to step up and do it without instruction. I think we would have been right to bring a Spargo, Garlett or JHK further up the ground to cover their player if needed and hope we can find a target when we go forward or at a minimum kill the game!

[binman 37,724]

39 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

My question is, why not play a lose in defense who's job is to play 15/20 meters in front of Hawkins and at least kill the easy kick inside 50, make them kick to a contest instead of a lead.

Someone like Fritsch would be perfect, but this is where Lewis or Vince need to step up and do it without instruction. I think we would have been right to bring a Spargo, Garlett or JHK further up the ground to cover their player if needed and hope we can find a target when we go forward or at a minimum kill the game!

Exaclty. And further, why, when the Cast seized the momentum did we not put two extras in our back half for a few minutes just to stem the tide. Tmac or Hogan could have been sent back to take hawkins and allow omac to fill the hole

You could argue i suppose that sticking to your guns and scoring a goal would have stopped their momentum but the problem is it was clear we were losing all the key indicators. The game was lost really in about 5 minutes of play when they scored four goals. 

[beelzebub 22,225]

22 minutes ago, binman said:

Exaclty. And further, why, when the Cast seized the momentum did we not put two extras in our back half for a few minutes just to stem the tide. Tmac or Hogan could have been sent back to take hawkins and allow omac to fill the hole

You could argue i suppose that sticking to your guns and scoring a goal would have stopped their momentum but the problem is it was clear we were losing all the key indicators. The game was lost really in about 5 minutes of play when they scored four goals. 

Hogan might have been a masterstroke. He was being ganged up anyway...would have mixed it up enormously.

[binman 37,724]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Hogan might have been a masterstroke. He was being ganged up anyway...would have mixed it up enormously.

His terrific reading of the play would also have been handy. In fact he could play the intercept role i reckon - not as an all the time thing, just in emergencies.

Lloyd highlighted on Footy classified how much more time maxy has been playing back since Lever got injured and suggested it might take too big a toll given how much running back is involved.maybe instead of maxy going back so much he pushes forward and Hogan goes back for a bit.

Maxy is a better contested mark as is Tmac. Hoges is strong enough to crash packs and athletic enough to get to contests and run off forwards. 

And as you say BB it would mix things up as at the moment opposition teams are just clogging up our forward half and sitting players in the hot spot.