Delisting, Trade and FA discussion 2018

[My name is legion 158]

2 hours ago, picket fence said:

WE CAVED IN WITH HOGAN DEAL. Freo and other clubs must be laughing their heads of at this deal!

should have insisted on 5, 19, Kollo and late third rounder.

Under the deal done Neale worth more than Hoges

Gutted!

How do you think Hogan would have played next year if Melbourne blocked his return “home”?

Hogan clearly wanted to go “home”.

This massively lowers his value to MFC and his trade value.

We did well to get what we did.

 

[nutbean 8,837]

8 minutes ago, ignition. said:

I don't care what anyone says, Mahoney cannot negotiate.

He folded last year when he met Adelaide's demand of two first-round picks (for Lever), he also did it with Port Adelaide as we pay for some of Watts' salary. This year, yet again, he didn't stick to his guns and accepted the loss of Hogan and Pick 65 for pick 6 and 23 (arguably a more valuable player than Lever).

He's just incapable of sticking to his guns and learning to manipulate the situation in his favour.

Should he be sacked? No. He's managed the list well and done a good job at poaching/recruiting players. Do we need someone else to negotiate better trades during trade week? Yes.

Before you pot Mahoney's negotiation skills you do understand he doesn't work in a bubble ?  He has input from the CEO ( salary cap for present and future) and the coach (who he wants and who he doesn't want)  and recruiting staff ( picks and the possible selections). There is input from all covering the scenario's.

 

Sooo..

 

The pants wasn't dropped on Watts. They wanted him gone and going to Port with a contribution was the cheapest option. ( the mistake on Watts was the contract amount he got initially). Do you think he would have got a game this for us ? So we cleared cap space and a playing spot. 

You can arguably Hogan all you like over Lever - Lever made the all Australian squad  - Hogan ?

Learning to manipulate ? Hogan was going next year  and wasn't a free agent so we have no compensation like GC was going to get for May. Big picture is we got two players we wanted now to give us a serious push further up the ladder for one player who didn't want to stay ( how would it effect his playing next year if he stayed ?)  and was out the door next year for an unknown draft pick.

 

 

 

 

[My name is legion 158]

9 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

Agree.

There were people at the start of trade week saying if we can get May in, possibly having to give up Hogan, it would be an exceptional result.  That isn't about the respective value of each player, just the net result of trade week. 

I'm probably more concerned that losing a player like Tyson hurts our midfield depth, but understand him wanting an opportunity.

You’re joking? He’ll kick the ball to our players when he’s playing against us as he usually kicks straight to the opposition.

[My name is legion 158]

22 minutes ago, ignition. said:

I don't care what anyone says, Mahoney cannot negotiate.

He folded last year when he met Adelaide's demand of two first-round picks (for Lever), he also did it with Port Adelaide as we pay for some of Watts' salary. This year, yet again, he didn't stick to his guns and accepted the loss of Hogan and Pick 65 for pick 6 and 23 (arguably a more valuable player than Lever).

He's just incapable of sticking to his guns and learning to manipulate the situation in his favour.

Should he be sacked? No. He's managed the list well and done a good job at poaching/recruiting players. Do we need someone else to negotiate better trades during trade week? Yes.

Crap.

[nutbean 8,837]

11 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

Agree.

There were people at the start of trade week saying if we can get May in, possibly having to give up Hogan, it would be an exceptional result.  That isn't about the respective value of each player, just the net result of trade week. 

I'm probably more concerned that losing a player like Tyson hurts our midfield depth, but understand him wanting an opportunity.

Tyson ? really - I liked Tyson's ball winning ability but his disposal and decision making - patchy. He was our second best midfielder when he arrived behind Jones. Oliver's gone past him, Viney's gone past him, Harmes has gone past him. So he is 5th in the pecking order at best. Not hard to replace him.

[ignition. 1,413]

6 minutes ago, nutbean said:

Before you pot Mahoney's negotiation skills you do understand he doesn't work in a bubble ?  He has input from the CEO ( salary cap for present and future) and the coach (who he wants and who he doesn't want)  and recruiting staff ( picks and the possible selections). There is input from all covering the scenario's.

 

Sooo..

 

The pants wasn't dropped on Watts. They wanted him gone and going to Port with a contribution was the cheapest option. ( the mistake on Watts was the contract amount he got initially). Do you think he would have got a game this for us ? So we cleared cap space and a playing spot. 

You can arguably Hogan all you like over Lever - Lever made the all Australian squad  - Hogan ?

Learning to manipulate ? Hogan was going next year  and wasn't a free agent so we have no compensation like GC was going to get for May. Big picture is we got two players we wanted now to give us a serious push further up the ladder for one player who didn't want to stay ( how would it effect his playing next year if he stayed ?)  and was out the door next year for an unknown draft pick.

 

Lever didn't make the All-Australian squad.

Bury your head in the sand as much as you want. Mahoney has poor negotiating skills.

[Elwood 3184 1,263]

2015 GOLD COAST B & F

 

[beelzebub 22,225]

3 minutes ago, ignition. said:

Lever didn't make the All-Australian squad.

Bury your head in the sand as much as you want. Mahoney has poor negotiating skills.

Lever DID make the AA squad in 2017...but not the final team

He made the U22 team 15,16 and 17

[Demonsterative 1,884]

32 minutes ago, ignition. said:

I don't care what anyone says, Mahoney cannot negotiate.

He folded last year when he met Adelaide's demand of two first-round picks (for Lever), he also did it with Port Adelaide as we pay for some of Watts' salary. This year, yet again, he didn't stick to his guns and accepted the loss of Hogan and Pick 65 for pick 6 and 23 (arguably a more valuable player than Lever).

He's just incapable of sticking to his guns and learning to manipulate the situation in his favour.Should he be sacked? No. He's managed the list well and done a good job at poaching/recruiting players. Do we need someone else to negotiate better trades during trade week? Yes..

Completing Trades isn't about trades in isolation, its about all the trades and how it moves the club forward.

Preuss is a valuable back-up Ruckman that will swap with Gawn as a forward/spare roaming backman. Weakness on our list fixed.

May is the strong key back man we needed. Weakness fixed

KK is the outside class we needed. I would have like more pace and outside class brought in, but another hole in our list that is hopefully fixed

The other fact is that the club scored more when Hogan was not in the team. You could say he was surplus to need.

Kent and Tyson were also surplus to need too.

KK and May are first round picks. Getting in 2 first round class players with an early 2nd round pick is a win for me, when Hogan was an inconsistent brat with terrible foot skills

[PaulRB 5,897]

With Tommy and Weide playing good big forward finals footy and with our strength and size issues down back, rebalancing our list with Hogan for May is a big strategic win.

Could well be the final piece. 

And we kept Vanders..! 

Winners wont be clear till well into next season, and I’m backing that we’ve nailed it.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by PaulRB

[ManDee 7,073]

1 hour ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

We definetly lost the Hogan deal, but 6 for May and Kolo is a win. Once again GC are the ones who got truely shafted

How do you figure that? Hogan out May & KK in. I think we are a better side = win. You have to look at the big picture. We would not have May & KK without trading Hogan. As Mahoney said.

[Lord Neville X Flash 179]

4 minutes ago, ManDee said:

How do you figure that? Hogan out May & KK in. I think we are a better side = win. You have to look at the big picture. We would not have May & KK without trading Hogan. As Mahoney said.

Hogan was not a trade for May and KK. Hogan was worth more than pick 6 and 23, that part of the trade freo got the better deal. 

However, pick 6 for May and KK was a steal, and GC got unders. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Lord Neville X Flash

[ManDee 7,073]

2 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Hogan was not a trade for May and KK. Hogan was worth more than pick 6 and 23, that part of the trade freo got the better deal. 

However, pick 6 for May and KK was a steal, and GC got unders. 

Really, can't you see the big picture? If we received pick 2 & 23 then 2 would go for May. You need to look at all outs v all ins. One hand of poker does not tell you the full story.

[Lord Neville X Flash 179]

3 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Really, can't you see the big picture? If we received pick 2 & 23 then 2 would go for May. You need to look at all outs v all ins. One hand of poker does not tell you the full story.

I can see the big picture, jesus. 

Just because we did well to get in May and KK doesn't mean we didn't let Hogan go cheap. 

In my opinion we showed our hand by admitting that we needed Hogan out to get May. Hogan was worth pick 5 & 14, and fremantle had those picks. We accepted pick 5 & 23, it's not the end of the world but it is unders.

[ManDee 7,073]

1 minute ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

I can see the big picture, jesus. 

Just because we did well to get in May and KK doesn't mean we didn't let Hogan go cheap. 

In my opinion we showed our hand by admitting that we needed Hogan out to get May. Hogan was worth pick 5 & 14, and fremantle had those picks. We accepted pick 5 & 23, it's not the end of the world but it is unders.

I give up.  Feel free to think we should have done better. Next time we could act tough like Dodoro and miss out on a player that wanted in.

[Lord Neville X Flash 179]

Just now, ManDee said:

I give up.  Feel free to think we should have done better. Next time we could act tough like Dodoro and miss out on a player that wanted in.

Mate, your acting like i'm up in arms. Like, i said it's not the end of the world, and i don't know why Melbourne played their hand like they did.. maybe there was mitigating circumstances. If your so affronted by opposing opinions i recommend leaving Demonland.

[Binmans PA 25,879]

1 hour ago, Elwood 3184 said:

2015 GOLD COAST B & F

 

Wowza. Look at the leaderboard.

Lynch at Richmond, KK and May at Melbourne, Dixon at Port, Hall at North, Saad at Essendon, Ablett at Geelong and Matera at Freo. Two players from the top 10 left.

Crazy list changes. Just shows you, doesn't matter about having all the talent in the world, if your coaching, development and game plan is no good and your culture is putrid, nothing good will come of it.

[DeeSpencer 23,051]

23 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Really, can't you see the big picture? If we received pick 2 & 23 then 2 would go for May. You need to look at all outs v all ins. One hand of poker does not tell you the full story.

I don’t agree with that. There’s lots of chances to move up and down the draft order these days. 

I think with more time we could’ve tried to move the 6 and 23 we got for Hogan in to something like 10 and 15. Then offered the Suns various deals that allowed us to keep a first round pick. If hypothetically we had pick 2 we would’ve surely traded it down before sending it to the Suns.

But we didn’t have the leverage in either situation. Freo and Gold Coast both knew Hogan out and May in was an acceptable result for us.

Anyway, we seem to have a philosophy that it’s better to not haggle over the last bit of change in a deal. I don’t always believe in it. But the player managers organized the big 7 team deal today. Keeping player managers happy might have a lot more value than people think 

 

[spirit of norm smith 12,828]

Mav Weller anyone? I know delisted from Saints who finished 16th but he is a tough competitor proven at the level.

Even if we give him a 1- year deal to provide depth and cover across the year. Now Tyson is gone, depth is to be considered.  It might also help out and protect the Casey mids development (we will probably add 3-4 young 18 year old draftees). 

[boydie 653]

18 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Mav Weller anyone? I know delisted from Saints who finished 16th but he is a tough competitor proven at the level.

Even if we give him a 1- year deal to provide depth and cover across the year. Now Tyson is gone, depth is to be considered.  It might also help out and protect the Casey mids development (we will probably add 3-4 young 18 year old draftees). 

I reckon he or someone similar who's been delisted will be picked up to see how they do for a year.

I wouldn't be surprised if we go after Weller, averages almost 4 tackles a game this year which is what Goody wants.

If he runs both ways and does the team things then he'll be in the mix.

[mauriesy 6,783]

4 hours ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

In my opinion we showed our hand by admitting that we needed Hogan out to get May. Hogan was worth pick 5 & 14, and fremantle had those picks. We accepted pick 5 & 23, it's not the end of the world but it is unders.

I don't think trading players futures and livelihoods is like some poker hand that you leave concealed with a straight face.

You do it in good faith to get the overall result you want. Jesse wanted to go home for strong personal reasons and we respected his needs and facilitated it. In return we got some advantageous picks that improved our side, and a good future trading reputation.

I don't care whether they were "overs" or "unders", I only care that we will be a better team in 2019 and beyond, given Jesse's circumstances.

It was also blindingly obvious what we needed to do to get May (i.e. a first round pick), given that other clubs were interested.

[Wilson7 2,474]

After trading Jesse, only Jack Viney remains from the 2012 trade & draft period






 

[CHF 2,585]

I believe that Hogan is and will continue to be a good player. I would have liked to see what he could have developed into if he had stayed at MFC for a time.

However, I think that the club have done the right thing in trading him and have got a good outcome. That is subjective as I am sure there are a number that could give good arguments otherwise.

One thing that is a win for the club is that we will no longer have the annual 9 month period of "will he stay or will he go". That is a huge plus in my book.

[bing181 8,149]

11 hours ago, ignition. said:

This year, yet again, he didn't stick to his guns and accepted the loss of Hogan and Pick 65 for pick 6 and 23 (arguably a more valuable player than Lever).

Yes, and under the points system, what we got for Hogan is more valuable (by 5 places) than what we paid for Lever, so your point is?

You're also conveniently omitting that we got a 2nd and a 3rd rounder back with Lever, also that the two first rounders that we paid for him were comparatively low: 10 and 16.

[faultydet 7,593]

was very happy to see Kelly fail in his bid to get to the Eagles. Last thing we needed was for them to get even stronger.

Was unhappy to see Beams get to Colonwood and strengthen an already very strong midfield.

We have a better chance than this year if we have a good run, but will have serious competition from those two teams. It shows how important it is for us to finish above the Eagles, to avoid the trip to their cesspit of inbreds.