Post Match Discussion - Round 5

[beelzebub 23,380]

Fmd Fritsch had how many days from the Hawks ?  If he needs a restbit ought to have been against Ess. 

He actually has some footy nous. He tries all game. Hes fairly clean of hands and can kick. Doesn't seem adverse to the wet etc.

He's far from magnificent but would have been very handy last night when we desperately lacked finish.

Who givesva flying fig about the Ess game in that context.

No point protecting tomorrow when we're fvcklng useless today !!

[Redleg 40,948]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Club caves in as usual and sold the farm.. and now it's going to cost us come draft time. The need for a outside player with speed has been glaring and we've just potentially bullen thst chance by off loading our 1st round draft pick.

Well we could have had one for nothing and he is 2nd highest metres gained in AFL but everyone said he was crap. He went to Roos and played well against us incidentally.

Tigers are doing well off trades and later picks. Early picks haven't saved us. 

[Redleg 40,948]

1 hour ago, america de cali said:

We also lack key forwards who can hit the “money shot” on a regular basis. Hogan nor Weeds seem capable of kicking a pressure set shot goal when desperately needed. 

Unfortunately at this stage that is true.

[Gator 17,381]

11 hours ago, bing181 said:

Disappointing result, but then they're not the reigning premiers for nothing. A well-oiled machine in full flight, they did to us much as they did to Adelaide in the granny, and if they keep that up, hard to not see them doing the double.

More than a few positives from the night, Lever's best game, Melksham, Jetta and Hibberd were back to something like their old selves, and Weideman did enough to justify his inclusion.

But at the end of the day, the difference between the two sides was that their bottom 6 players are so far ahead of ours it's not funny. I get the players over the back/outside bit, but if we didn't turn it over so much, it would be much less of an issue. It's the reason that they can get that run of players going and we can't ... somewhere in that chain there'll be a Harmes or ANB who fumble the ball, or misdirect a handball and then it goes back the other way with interest.

And ... still think Viney's absence is hurting us a lot more than we realise, it's not for nothing that we're not doing as well with clearances as we did last year.

If their bottom six played last night for us they'd be getting the same criticism.

It is FAR easier to play well in a very good team.

[Redleg 40,948]

9 minutes ago, ProDee said:

If their bottom six played last night for us they'd be getting the same criticism.

It is FAR easier to play well in a very good team.

That actually bears examination. 

Early last year they were considered ordinary. 

They have 3 stars in Dusty, Rance and the Captain, the rest are no names and I include Jack R in that. 

We have some very good players in Gawn, Clarry, Perracca, Hogan etc and also the no names. 

So what is the difference. 

All their players seem to have ball skills and pace. We don't.

They know their game plan and it is effective. Ours isn't.

We both have effort.

So for me  it comes down to skill, pace and game plan ( coaching).

And yes as a kicker but not the sole reason they won, their bottom 6 are better than ours and in fact their three ins last night kicked 6-7 of their goals I think. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Redleg

[Gator 17,381]

I can't be bothered reading page after page of misery, so stopped after page 3.

The negatives are obvious, so I'll make one point on the positives.

I've read that Weideman was OK.  He was far better than OK.  He was my main positive for the night.  He will make it.  I wasn't sure he would, but I am now.  For me that's huge.

[Demonised 1,354]

After their premiership win, Richmond supporters are pretty insufferable.

I'd like to be insufferable, too, one day.

[Wolfgang219 73]

11 hours ago, bing181 said:

Except that our "A grade talent" are all re-signing.

Got anything else?

Only because they get overpaid. 

 

Where would Jones be in Geelongs pay scale? Maybe around then ten mark? Instead he has been one of our highest players. 

 

I think someone at the at the club made a comment about the Dawes’ contract that they have to pay someone. I think is one of our issues at the club. 

 

We pay 100% of the salary cap yet have been out of the finals for over a decade?  

 

If the KPI is to win matches/make finals surely we haven’t achieve it and only in the AFL do you get paid regardless of their performance. 

[Gator 17,381]

5 minutes ago, Redleg said:

That actually bears examination. 

Early last year they were considered ordinary. 

They have 3 stars in Dusty, Rance and the Captain, the rest are no names and I include Jack R in that. 

We have some very good players in Gawn, Clarry, Perracca, Hogan etc and also the no names. 

So what is the difference. 

All their players seem to have ball skills and pace. We don't.

They know their game plan and it is effective. Ours isn't.

We both have effort.

So for me  it comes down to skill, pace and game plan ( coaching).

And yes as a kicker but not the sole reason they won, their bottom 6 are better than ours and in fact their three ins last night kicked 6-7 of their goals I think. 

Your post bears scrutiny too.

Firstly, their best players have played over 150 games.  Our best players haven't played 100.  That is a huge difference between the teams.

Secondly, our game plan isn't working.  Too many players are sucked into the contest and we're getting killed on the outside.  And when we do win it we're not spreading hard enough. 

We need to fix some fixable things.  When we do we'll make significant progress.  If we don't we'll still beat ordinary teams, but be hurt by the better ones.

Edited April 25, 2018 by ProDee

[Hot as Hell 466]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

It's definitely how we're playing more than our opponent, but to be fair we have to give credit to Richmond whose pressure is better than anyone else's.

It's hard to know whether we would have been as fumbly, for example, if we didn't continually expect to be immediately gang tackled every time we go near it.

You are right we fumbled against Richmond's pressure t_u. But we also fumbled very badly relative to Hawthorn's relatively clean handling under more trying conditions. 

The common issue appears to be our skill level drops off markedly under pressure, a pressure we are unable to apply in response. 

As many have said, we tried very hard last  night. Our effort was clear. 

It was our skill level under pressure all around the ground that let us down. 

Can we hope and pray untried VFL recruits like Charlie Spargo and "Tom" Petty and maybe young Balic can enter AFL and save our bacon with a bit more pace? 

 

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Hogan is a beast

[Jaded No More 68,965]

Just now, jumbo returns said:

Hogan is a beast

Hogan needs to stick to his forward role. It literally gives us nothing to have him play mid. We have zero consistency up forward and no real marking targets. Gees we miss McDonald!

[Hot as Hell 466]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

It seemed , to this humble observer, that our game style ( note i haven't said plan...as i can't discern one ) was simply pressure on the ball/man. 

It was very British Bulldogs really...just stacks on the mill and with a fairly inventive copy of a rolling scrum we got it ti our end and got a bit lucky...scored a try.

Then, Richmond working intelligently utilsed our desire to concentrate manpower and used the resulting open spaces, and lack of effective opposition to run amock.

We were still playing a very dumb game. It works for at best a quarter.

Why were we not switching ? That HAS to be instructed. Why do we often have the wrong players on at crucial moments ? That's direction.

Why do we continually have poor structure. Why do we just bomb away?

Why do other teams find it so easy to score out the back door ?

Why are we going backwards ?

All very good observations beelzebub. 

Your personal humility is trumped by your ability to see what our paid "brains trust" can not. 

[spalding 1,128]

On my way to the dawn service I got a text from a Richmond tragic mate of mine (who is the most emotionally and financially invested supporter I know), who said “chin up mate, it can turnaround real quick, trust me, it does seem darkest before the dawn”. He’s really good mates with Peggy O’neil and also commented about how much pressure she, Brendan Gale and Dimmer were under 18 months ago. He says that their inner sanctum really rates the Demons in the mid to longer term and this is why.

last night their experienced leaders, probably with the exception of Houli were not dominant - but still played at the minimum standard you expect each week. This includes the big 4 plus Grimes, Edwards, Grigg etc. Melbourne have no equivalent  (yet), except for Jones and Hibberd

They think melbourne players don’t trust their system (yet) - too many fly in the backline, too many sucked into the immediate contest. They implicitly trust each not to be beaten in the contest - so don’t all fly in the backline, don’t all get sucked to the ball or into a tackle but start to spread etc.

its not such a leg speed issue but speed of ball movement - no fumbles, no hestitation to move (trust again)

after telling him to go and gf, he said that with the complete confidence and trust they have a heap of guys that he thought were spuds (grigg, houli, mckintosh, lambert, Lloyd) who actually look good now their in a good team.

As angry as i was last night I still think there is enough for us to work with. I’ve been a member for 35 years, and 6 weeks before the 1987 finals. Suddenly the young guys clicked and we played finals for 5 years (and missed a golden chance in 1990). I think this will happen again - hopefully starting this year.

for all those who have said they are chucking it in, as I felt like last night, I hope you can hang in there

[640MD 3,383]

13 minutes ago, ProDee said:

 

I've read that Weideman was OK.  He was far better than OK.  He was my main positive for the night.  He will make it.  I wasn't sure he would, but I am now.  For me that's huge.

Wrong.  OK  was about all he was 

better than useless and he did show a bit 

More than I expected less than I hoped, 

Lever to my mind had his best game in red n blue and OMac continues to improve

i no longer look away when he gets he pill 

No pressure on the opposition coming from our forwards let’s them run it into space and overwhelms our defence.

still I have felt far worse after some games  but we should be aiming at 4 goals quarter not just one. And any shot on goal Weideman gets needs to go straight through over the umpires hat

or he can stay at Casey for s while.

 

[Hot as Hell 466]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

It seemed , to this humble observer, that our game style ( note i haven't said plan...as i can't discern one ) was simply pressure on the ball/man. 

It was very British Bulldogs really...just stacks on the mill and with a fairly inventive copy of a rolling scrum we got it ti our end and got a bit lucky...scored a try.

Then, Richmond working intelligently utilsed our desire to concentrate manpower and used the resulting open spaces, and lack of effective opposition to run amock.

We were still playing a very dumb game. It works for at best a quarter.

Why were we not switching ? That HAS to be instructed. Why do we often have the wrong players on at crucial moments ? That's direction.

Why do we continually have poor structure. Why do we just bomb away?

Why do other teams find it so easy to score out the back door ?

Why are we going backwards ?

All very good observations beelzebub. 

Your personal humility is trumped by your ability to see what our paid "brains trust" can not. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Hot as Hell
Sorry duplication from bloody dumb smart phone (or user)

[Gator 17,381]

3 minutes ago, 640MD said:

Wrong.  OK  was about all he was 

better than useless and he did show a bit 

More than I expected less than I hoped, 

still I have felt far worse after some games  but we should be aiming at 4 goals quarter not just one. And any shot on goal Weideman gets needs to go straight through over the umpires hat

or he can stay at Casey for s while.

 

Clearly, I disagree with you and you're not someone to be taken seriously.

Btw, it's shot "at" goal.  Not shot on goal.

[beelzebub 23,380]

12 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Hogan is a beast

So is King Kong...not known for his finesse

 

[Hot as Hell 466]

5 minutes ago, 640MD said:

Wrong.  OK  was about all he was 

better than useless and he did show a bit 

More than I expected less than I hoped, 

Lever to my mind had his best game in red n blue and OMac continues to improve

i no longer look away when he gets he pill 

No pressure on the opposition coming from our forwards let’s them run it into space and overwhelms our defence.

still I have felt far worse after some games  but we should be aiming at 4 goals quarter not just one. And any shot on goal Weideman gets needs to go straight through over the umpires hat

or he can stay at Casey for s while.

 

Agree with your take 640MD.

The Weide did his job, Omac played very solidly and has improved considerably this year, and both Lever and Hibberd played season best games. 

Last night we really lack polish, not endeavour and confidence not courage. 

[640MD 3,383]

I do like reading some of our posters

some of you guys put a fair bit into the analysis of the games

cant put up with the negative personal stuff.  Ignore all that 

not sure I can be as positive as some of you but then it’s probably the culmination of 60 years or more supporting and being mostly shite for 40 of those years

make 4 changes with fresh legs we can do the Bummers

[leave it to deever 17,511]

12 hours ago, olisik said:

Goodie has too much pride to change it up. 

 

Our NQRs have all gone backwards in Harmes, Frost, ANB, Stretch, Bugg list goes on

Our Stars in Gawn, Hogan, Trac looking very average and not going to take the next step.

Old days of no game plan and [censored] player development are back.

Spot on....except for Hogan.

Although Trac isnt a star.

Jones Vince Jetta Lewis have expired.

Garlett doesnt seem to care.

Its pretty sad.

Fool me once mfc

Twice shame on me.

Will not renew my membership after having one for 36 years. Done my bit.

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by leave it to deever

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Spot on.

 

Spot on?  So you agree with his assertion that both Gawn and Hogan have been average?  Goodness me.

And, this is not directed at you, but all this talk of having no game plan is absolute rubbish.  We clearly have one.  It's just not working the way in which Goodwin and the players had hoped.  So, they need to change it.  But for people in this thread to suggest we lack a game plan is ridiculous.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Spot on?  So you agree with his assertion that both Gawn and Hogan have been average?  Goodness me.

And, this is not directed at you, but all this talk of having no game plan is absolute rubbish.  We clearly have one.  It's just not working the way in which Goodwin and the players had hoped.  So, they need to change it.  But for people in this thread to jsuggest we lack a game plan is ridiculous.

No.....I read my post and then edited it. Hogan was awesome.

Max was ok but not the same as the man he was against norf.

Thats about it im afraid. Just too many passengers. We seem to be going backwards.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

6 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Spot on?  So you agree with his assertion that both Gawn and Hogan have been average?  Goodness me.

And, this is not directed at you, but all this talk of having no game plan is absolute rubbish.  We clearly have one.  It's just not working the way in which Goodwin and the players had hoped.  So, they need to change it.  But for people in this thread to jsuggest we lack a game plan is ridiculous.

No.....I read my post and then edited it. Hogan was awesome.

Max was ok but not the same as the man he was against norf.

Thats about it im afraid. Just too many passengers. We seem to be going backwards.

[loges 6,767]

2 hours ago, Mickey said:

You're a lot more confident than I am.

Essendon are pushing for a top 8 spot like us, and either have stinkers or turn it on.

St Kilda pushed GWS and really should have won.

GC are tough to beat away, even if it's at the Gabba.

Carlton we should beat, but then again...

If we win all 4, we are potentially back on track. If we win any less than 3 we are done.

In other words there are a lot of teams exactly in the same situation as we are.