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Is Goodwin the right guy?  

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19 hours ago, picket fence said:

For me the coach I would like next if Goody fails is Ross Lyon, as astute a thinker and innovator football person as there is. Two Grand Finals , almost won both, that's good enough for me at this stage

Absolutely agree, Picket. Lyon is a proven (yep, no flag, I know) expert coach. He's as tough as nails, and yet gets the most out his players. Have him in a heartbeat. 

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Rubbish. If you’re prepared to hold him to account when things are going badly, you need to give him credit when things are going well. Otherwise just you’re twisting reality to suit your agenda.

Only 3 clubs have clocked an average running speed quicker in defence than in attack for both games. Richmond WB and Melbounre. We are running harder defensively than we have previous season

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4 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

memo to board... never ever ever sign a coach for more than two years without either or both a three month buy out clause in year three or clear objective performance criteria.

It's a tricky one, whereby we all acknowledge stability from a leadership works from a long term perspective vs being in a results driven industry and the need for, win/loss evidence that you're continually on a linear path to success.

I'm curious about people's personal thresholds of when a coaching tenure is unworkable.

For me, it's the oft spoken about notion of 'he (as it always is a he), has lost the players'.

As of yet, Goodwin hasn't.

Edited by Engorged Onion
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11 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

5-5 would be a result.  I'm not a huge detractor but it irks that we're essentially a one trick pony in game style and personell. He fully owns that.

High contested, high inside 50s, high press, er failed conversion.

The problem I have with us being high contested team is that we are sort of feathering our own nest, we win a contest, butcher the next possession, creating a contest, which we can often win, but butcher again and the cycle continues.

We are a good contested team because we create lot of contests through poor skill or decision making

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16 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

It's a tricky one, whereby we all acknowledge stability from a leadership works from a long term perspective vs being in a results driven industry.

I'm curious about people's personal thresholds of when a coaching tenure is unworkable.

For me, it's the oft spoken about notion of 'he (as it always is a he), has lost the players'.

As of yet, Goodwin hasn't.

When does it become unworkable.  As supporters i think most would agree the Demons have tested their personal thresholds of tolerance just supporting them.  They are a fickle mob that can look like world-beaters to rabble within the same game.  Pride of performance is a thing for some of the Melbourne players but definitely not all.  It is rare to see us as a team "all" switched on and playing with intensity over 4 quarters.

He may have not lost the players as yet, but they will not run through walls for him.

Simplistically he often  says "we" need to get better. Many of the players really do need to get better.  Sometime i wish he would come to a post game presser and say he had no answers in the coaching box, or i let the team down by not paying enough respect to the opposition and the way they want to play. 

It is not nearly good enough to say they did not allow us to play our way, or that we have "learnings".  It is disrespectful to supporters that we hear the same musings from our coach every other week.  He needs learnings as much as the players do.

Not sure he has lost the players, but could not say that he definitely has them hanging off his words, eager to please either.

His selections over last few years would be enough to create rifts within "any" playing group....be interesting to see how the season plays out.  Crunch time for Simon.

Edited by NeveroddoreveN
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The issue is, we are running out of time.

Gawn, May and Brown, so basically our entire spine, have peaked. They are at an age where they won't get much better, but their decline can come quickly. Likewise, our midfield is now nearing their peak. Viney, Trac, Oliver, Brayshaw and Harmes are entering 'prime career' stage, that is around 100 games of experience and with a mature body. 

Then you take into account that the bulk of our really experienced players, particularly Jones, Jetta, Melksham and Hibbo are either at the end, or very near the end of their careers ( can't see any of them being on the list in 2022 except perhaps Melksham). 

It is very rare to win a flag without some good runs on the board in finals. If we don't make and win at least one final this year, we are going to watch the clock run out on our tilt at a flag unless we change things quickly, or somehow manage to recruit some serious stars (which is very unlikely given our salary cap and lack of success, not to mention how hard they are to come by). 

So Goodwin has to make something happen this year, because time is well and truly running out for him and for us. 

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18 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

When does it become unworkable.  As supporters i think most would agree the Demons have tested their personal thresholds of tolerance just supporting them.  They are a fickle mob that can look like world-beaters to rabble within the same game.  Pride of performance is a thing for some of the Melbourne players but definitely not all.  It is rare to see us as a team "all" switched on and playing with intensity over 4 quarters.

He may have not lost the players as yet, but they will not run through walls for him.

Simplistically he often  says "we" need to get better. Many of the players really do need to get better.  Sometime i wish he would come to a post game presser and say he had no answers in the coaching box, or i let the team down by not paying enough respect to the opposition and the way they want to play. 

It is not nearly good enough to say they did not allow us to play our way, or that we have "learnings".  It is disrespectful to supporters that we hear the same musings from our coach every other week.  He needs learnings as much as the players do.

Not sure he has lost the players, but could not say that he definitely has them hanging off his words, eager to please either.

His selections over last few years would be enough to create rifts within "any" playing group....be interesting to see how the season plays out.  Crunch time for Simon.

He has not lost the players? Does that mean that he is a popular coach that the players like as a person?

However, do they respect him? 

Do they respect him like the Tigers respect Dimma? Do you have to be a winning coach to earn that respect ?  Did Dimma have that respect in his first few years? Perhaps not. 

Back in the old days, Fitzroy and Richmond players respected Bill Stephen and Len Smith although their teams only achieved limited success. It could be argued that Barassi earned enormous respect at the Blues and North but when he came to the Dees he lost some of it. 

Norm Smith was not popular with many players but from talking to players at that time, he had universal respect.  

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6 minutes ago, Jaded said:

The issue is, we are running out of time.

Gawn, May and Brown, so basically our entire spine, have peaked. They are at an age where they won't get much better, but their decline can come quickly. Likewise, our midfield is now nearing their peak. Viney, Trac, Oliver, Brayshaw and Harmes are entering 'prime career' stage, that is around 100 games of experience and with a mature body. 

Then you take into account that the bulk of our really experienced players, particularly Jones, Jetta, Melksham and Hibbo are either at the end, or very near the end of their careers ( can't see any of them being on the list in 2022 except perhaps Melksham). 

It is very rare to win a flag without some good runs on the board in finals. If we don't make and win at least one final this year, we are going to watch the clock run out on our tilt at a flag unless we change things quickly, or somehow manage to recruit some serious stars (which is very unlikely given our salary cap and lack of success, not to mention how hard they are to come by). 

So Goodwin has to make something happen this year, because time is well and truly running out for him and for us. 

Pressure is building and time is ticking for sure!  

Most supporters are not all that worried about losing Goodwin.

We have Oliver and Salem coming out of contract this year.

Without Oliver we go from competing for finals, to a 10-12th side imo.

If we do not get results, and early in the year. I think you will find both will hold out for other options and test their market values.

My guess is the MFC will pay out Goodwin before allowing us to lose Oliver, we rate him "that" highly.

Goodwin has to make it happen this year or he will not coach another AFL team.  He has had enough time to work out the caper.

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I’m giving goody a 25% chance of coaching us in 2022. Hes on hiding to nothing with our key forwards out for a month and fitness queries over 3 of our 4 starting midfielders. I can see this first month being a disaster.

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3 minutes ago, Pipefitter said:

I’m giving goody a 25% chance of coaching us in 2022. Hes on hiding to nothing with our key forwards out for a month and fitness queries over 3 of our 4 starting midfielders. I can see this first month being a disaster.

Spot on

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24 minutes ago, hemingway said:

He has not lost the players? Does that mean that he is a popular coach that the players like as a person?

However, do they respect him? 

Do they respect him like the Tigers respect Dimma? Do you have to be a winning coach to earn that respect ?  Did Dimma have that respect in his first few years? Perhaps not. 

Back in the old days, Fitzroy and Richmond players respected Bill Stephen and Len Smith although their teams only achieved limited success. It could be argued that Barassi earned enormous respect at the Blues and North but when he came to the Dees he lost some of it. 

Norm Smith was not popular with many players but from talking to players at that time, he had universal respect.  

From what i see Goodwin wants to be their best mates.  There is not the fear/respect level that gets players to play on the edge.   Does he ever give a player a bake for not doing what they train?  I doubt it, i am yet to see him angry in any 1/4 time or 3/4 time huddles. 

They probably respect him for all he achieved as a player.  

As a coach, he lacks creativity with his words that would dull even the most eager of his foot soldiers.

Goodwin was a player who got the very best out of himself and even exceeded those expectations.

He expects that every player wants to get to these same levels.

Does he demand it? Doubt it.

Respect is earned and most of us do not freely give it without merit.

Going to make a sweeping assumption here....but my guess would be the players actually doubt Goodwin's ability behind closed doors.  Perhaps even blaming him more for their teams failings than looking at each other.

Would love to know how the players feel and think about this subject of respect, and the level of it regarding Goodwin.  

 

Edited by NeveroddoreveN
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I understand that comparisons with past eras can be odious, but  the teams under Northey and Daniher were greatly under resourced, in terms of amenities, but we had true leaders within the playing group who commanded respect and action.  While we never got our hands on the holy grail during that time we had a modicum of success.  Some on those lists were by no means stars, but they played for each other.

The observations of many on here are absolutely correct and time is certainly ticking.  Platitudes will not longer cut it with most members/supporters.  I too fear we could lose Oliver and maybe Petracca, if they cannot see some success in the near future.  I have heard some jungle drums beating among some influential supporters.  With the beat of those drums always comes rumours.  I won't go into the rumours on this forum for obvious reasons, but Goody is not immune from the rumour mill.

I fear if we have a disastrous start to this season, we can expect significant upheaval............... again!!!!

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5 hours ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Your roost must be somewhere on Mars.  Top 4? On hope?  Highly unlikey we challenge Brisbane, Port, WC, Richmond, Geelong, WB, St Kilda.   You think seriously we end up above ANY of these teams?? We will be lucky to fight it out for 8th place i reckon.  

I don't think most on here are selling the farm but if you could not see the warning signs in the "way" we played our last match you got blinkers on.   We all want the penny to drop for our team.  It seems only an absolute baking from either the media of the Pres gets them up and about.  Goodwin i reckon has actually lost a lot of this mob.   They do what he says and they lose games.  That is reinforced by the fact he "accepts" mediocrity by keep picking blokes not putting in 100% effort.  Melksham/Harmes/Brayshaw/Tmac were all horrible for most of season.  Young guys are getting dropped after putting in one average performance. It just is not quite right and players at the MFC are not earning their spots.

 

You are overrating St Kilda, Port and Geelong imo. Port finished 11th in 2019, have added a few good kids but some of their other stars are past their best. eg Boak unlikely to play like that again.  I wouldn't be surprised if they miss the top 4.

St Kilda imo have zero elite players. they have very good depth and lots of B/C graders. Steele is the closest and King could be one day. They just made finals last year and are missing ~6 blokes to start the season including both rucks

Not sure we can do top 4, but we have the potential to be 4-8 absolutely

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48 minutes ago, DubDee said:

You are overrating St Kilda, Port and Geelong imo. Port finished 11th in 2019, have added a few good kids but some of their other stars are past their best. eg Boak unlikely to play like that again.  I wouldn't be surprised if they miss the top 4.

St Kilda imo have zero elite players. they have very good depth and lots of B/C graders. Steele is the closest and King could be one day. They just made finals last year and are missing ~6 blokes to start the season including both rucks

Not sure we can do top 4, but we have the potential to be 4-8 absolutely

Maybe i am overrating St Kilda which are roughly where we are at, with a much better coach. Their recruiting last year was great and had impact almost straight away.  

Port will be top 4. They have a thing called culture and pride and are starting to really believe in themselves.  If they do not win a Premiership in the next 3 years i would be surprised. They were top of the ladder last year and just can't see them dropping.  In the practice match vs Adelaide i reckon they looked to have even gone up a gear.  Will be a scary team for anyone.

Geelong i would love to drop out of the top 4. But with Cameron and Isaac added + the usually favourable draw, i also see them as a lock for top 4.

We have the potential to upset a Geelong/.Saints on our day, just not sure we are going to be able to go with Brisbane/Port/WC/WB/Richmond on theirs.

Yeah we can make 4th to 8th, but you would not want to put your house on it would you?

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4 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

memo to board... never ever ever sign a coach for more than two years without either or both a three month buy out clause in year three or clear objective performance criteria.

or don't offer more than 2 years after choking in one year in the last round and putting in one of the worst Prelim performances of the modern era the following year.

I get that they wanted to show support and belief in Goodwin but EXTENDING by three years was insanity. A two year extension would have had 2021 as his last contracted season. An in-contract extension is enough to show support. He still had one year left on his contract after 2018. Madness to offer him three years. Should have been two with an option for a third if we made finals. I suspect the club buckled to the agent here. 

3 hours ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

I understand that comparisons with past eras can be odious, but  the teams under Northey and Daniher were greatly under resourced, in terms of amenities, but we had true leaders within the playing group who commanded respect and action.  While we never got our hands on the holy grail during that time we had a modicum of success.  Some on those lists were by no means stars, but they played for each other.

The observations of many on here are absolutely correct and time is certainly ticking.  Platitudes will not longer cut it with most members/supporters.  I too fear we could lose Oliver and maybe Petracca, if they cannot see some success in the near future.  I have heard some jungle drums beating among some influential supporters.  With the beat of those drums always comes rumours.  I won't go into the rumours on this forum for obvious reasons, but Goody is not immune from the rumour mill.

I fear if we have a disastrous start to this season, we can expect significant upheaval............... again!!!!

Trac ain't going anywhere. Not in his character and will be a one club player.

Oliver I can see bolting for the door. Even if we magically win a flag this year.

Edited by praha
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8 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

We need to claim a top 4 scalp, beat the sides we should be beating and no Bulldogs style loss where we collectively go to sleep for just one quarter to ultimately cost us the game. If the following occurs, then Goodwin will have had a successful start to the season and my confidence in him will return:

Fremantle - win

St Kilda  - competitive loss. Saints will win most games at Marvel

GWS - competitive loss. GWS have an outstanding record at Manuka.

Geelong - win. A statement win.

Hawthorn - win

Richmond - competitive loss.

North - win

Sydney - win

Carlton - 50/50

Adelaide - win

A 6-4 or 7-3 start is achievable IMO. We play a few sides that are projected to miss finals.

A 4-6 or 5-5 start will see him hang around but it will just be the same old same old...

Anything less and we might have our first mid year sacking since 2013.

 

6 wins must be the minimum! Freo, Hawks, North, Sydney, Carlton and Adelaide are must wins - lose any of those and the heat will be on.

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4 hours ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Maybe i am overrating St Kilda which are roughly where we are at, with a much better coach. Their recruiting last year was great and had impact almost straight away.  

Port will be top 4. They have a thing called culture and pride and are starting to really believe in themselves.  If they do not win a Premiership in the next 3 years i would be surprised. They were top of the ladder last year and just can't see them dropping.  In the practice match vs Adelaide i reckon they looked to have even gone up a gear.  Will be a scary team for anyone.

Geelong i would love to drop out of the top 4. But with Cameron and Isaac added + the usually favourable draw, i also see them as a lock for top 4.

We have the potential to upset a Geelong/.Saints on our day, just not sure we are going to be able to go with Brisbane/Port/WC/WB/Richmond on theirs.

Yeah we can make 4th to 8th, but you would not want to put your house on it would you?

The opposing teams look better and better each day. Who will we beat?  We will need a huge improvement to be competitive and win matches. 

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2 hours ago, hemingway said:

The opposing teams look better and better each day. Who will we beat?  We will need a huge improvement to be competitive and win matches. 

Yes

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22 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

It's a tricky one, whereby we all acknowledge stability from a leadership works from a long term perspective vs being in a results driven industry and the need for, win/loss evidence that you're continually on a linear path to success.

I'm curious about people's personal thresholds of when a coaching tenure is unworkable.

For me, it's the oft spoken about notion of 'he (as it always is a he), has lost the players'.

As of yet, Goodwin hasn't.

3 seasons in a row of poor results is unworkable. 3 strikes you're out (probably more than a lot of coaches get!)

Edited by Dr. Gonzo
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18 hours ago, praha said:

Trac ain't going anywhere. Not in his character and will be a one club player.

Disagree. Trac wants be a HoF'er, he wants a legacy and to do that you need to play in September and win flags. A poor showing this year and he'll be fielding offers next year as a FA guaranteed.

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21 hours ago, Pipefitter said:

I’m giving goody a 25% chance of coaching us in 2022. Hes on hiding to nothing with our key forwards out for a month and fitness queries over 3 of our 4 starting midfielders. I can see this first month being a disaster.

PF the forward line is largely of his Choosing, last year we had very few injuries and could not get higher than ninety place.

How many years do we have to wait till all the planets align for him ? I suspect the answer is forever.  

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Disagree. Trac wants be a HoF'er, he wants a legacy and to do that you need to play in September and win flags. A poor showing this year and he'll be fielding offers next year as a FA guaranteed.

And can you blame him? 

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