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Is Goodwin the right guy?  

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5 minutes ago, Pipefitter said:

We just missed the 8. He’s not losing his job. It’s a failure but it’s personnel as much as coaching. We have a lot of average players that fill our bottom part of the 22. 

Some will argue we lost some games at selection, I would like to see that aspect looked at.

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You're good at making sweeping generalisations.  And yes, there's unquestionably areas where the team needs to improve.  But I don't agree with your assessment of Goodwin.  We're lucky to have him.

Our team is not "mentally weak" but there's a significant number of posters here who are and don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees. Saturday night was bitterly disappointing - the

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3 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Bennell's $50,000 drinking session probably doesn't help in that endeavour.

I'm not far off the "sack Goodwin" crew but he somehow has a winning record in 3 of this 4 seasons todate. For that reason he'll clearly survive but the club should have a finals or sacking policy for next year, unless ALL of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Langdon and May have injury plagued seasons.

I know it's been discussed in another thread, but Bennell's breach is just a slap in the face for the entire club and their support of him.  We've done everything to help get his body right and to get him back to playing footy on a regular basis, and this is how he thanks us.  I bet the club, from top to bottom, are absolutely livid right now.

The fine hurts, but I don't think it will hurt too much.  From what I can gather we are in a much better spot than most, so hopefully we are still in a position to make the relevant changes without being hamstrung too much.

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3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I'm glad you put 'yet' in there, OD, as I think there is still improvement to be had.  I'm bullish on our three recruits from this year, and we've seen some really good progression from a few others.

I think players like Harmes and Brayshaw can get back to their best if they are played in their right positions.  I'd love to see Harmes go to the oppositions best midfielder at the first centre bounce of Round 1, with Oliver and Trac in there with him.  

But plenty will depend on the changes we make over the summer.

2 of the three look good I am not so sure about the third. I fear we are going to lose one of those mid fielders this trade season.

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2 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

Some will argue we lost some games at selection, I would like to see that aspect looked at.

 

Just now, old dee said:

2 of the three look good I am not so sure about the third. I fear we are going to lose one of those mid fielders this trade season.

No doubt in my mind the FD blew two of the early games when they refused to play Weideman and or Brown. That one KPF , then 2 , then 3. Then one. Looked like we Were using a dart Board to make selections. 

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12 minutes ago, old dee said:

 

No doubt in my mind the FD blew two of the early games when they refused to play Weideman and or Brown. That one KPF , then 2 , then 3. Then one. Looked like we Were using a dart Board to make selections. 

We carried players too.

How did Melksham not get dropped all year? 

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9th, 9-8 and a 107% is the ultimate equivocal result.

I can fully understand why many want Goodwin gone, it has been a very frustrating season overall.

I'll be surprised if he does get sacked off that result but bigger sackings have happened before - Grant Thomas after an elimination final loss to us by 18 points springs to mind.  If he goes it will be because they have an experienced replacement in hand i.e. Clarkson or Lyon.  I would be absolutely amazed if we sacked him and then went on a search for a new coach.

If he stays I agree with other posters there needs to be major changes in the assistant coaching ranks and we can spend the money we would have used to paid him out to fund it.

I'd expect some major list changes too - Goodwin is not afraid to make the big calls there - Lever, May / Watts, Hogan.

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It seems that those who don't think the coach should be sacked are believing that we don't have the players to go anywhere. We need a gun big forward, we need a gun small forward, a gun medium forward, some more elite runners on the outside etc etc.

It is as though subconsciously, those posters are saying that they don't have faith in the coach and instead that we need a full list of 22 superstars to get us over the line, effectively putting a team of champions out on the field. A team that is that so stacked full of talent that they can't fail. Only issue with that is GWS have shown that you can have all the talent in the world but if your system and coaching isn't good enough then you won't go all the way.

Looking at Richmond and Geelong, they aren't a team full of 22 stars, yes they have a few in there but the system and coaching makes them the good team. We all complain that our bottom 6 (or bottom 6-12) are nowhere near theirs but I would argue that their bottom 6-12 just operate under such good systems that it makes seem better than they are. One wonders why a lot of players from premiership teams never seem to be as good as they were at the old club or when we lose a player that they seem to play better at the new club. It is the system that they are either leaving or going to. Funny how the tigers have had decent levels of injuries this  year and their performance may have dipped, they still kept a pretty high standard, even the hawks stayed at a pretty decent level after having their real stars disappear - this  year have lost almost everyone decent in their team, get a few stars in and they will roar past us. 

What I can't see is exactly what our system is. I have commented on this before and commentators and others have agreed in that no-one can really see what our 'brand' is. Surely after 4 years this would be second nature to our players by now and we would be a well oiled machine. Maybe we actually are a well oiled machine under this current system, problem being that the system is rubbish!

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2 minutes ago, Age said:

It seems that those who don't think the coach should be sacked are believing that we don't have the players to go anywhere. We need a gun big forward, we need a gun small forward, a gun medium forward, some more elite runners on the outside etc etc.

It is as though subconsciously, those posters are saying that they don't have faith in the coach and instead that we need a full list of 22 superstars to get us over the line, effectively putting a team of champions out on the field. A team that is that so stacked full of talent that they can't fail. Only issue with that is GWS have shown that you can have all the talent in the world but if your system and coaching isn't good enough then you won't go all the way.

Looking at Richmond and Geelong, they aren't a team full of 22 stars, yes they have a few in there but the system and coaching makes them the good team. We all complain that our bottom 6 (or bottom 6-12) are nowhere near theirs but I would argue that their bottom 6-12 just operate under such good systems that it makes seem better than they are. One wonders why a lot of players from premiership teams never seem to be as good as they were at the old club or when we lose a player that they seem to play better at the new club. It is the system that they are either leaving or going to. Funny how the tigers have had decent levels of injuries this  year and their performance may have dipped, they still kept a pretty high standard, even the hawks stayed at a pretty decent level after having their real stars disappear - this  year have lost almost everyone decent in their team, get a few stars in and they will roar past us. 

What I can't see is exactly what our system is. I have commented on this before and commentators and others have agreed in that no-one can really see what our 'brand' is. Surely after 4 years this would be second nature to our players by now and we would be a well oiled machine. Maybe we actually are a well oiled machine under this current system, problem being that the system is rubbish!

As best as I can work out, Coach and players are united in the belief that we can beat anyone on our day. Hardly in line with core MFC principle one-Trust

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15 minutes ago, Age said:

It seems that those who don't think the coach should be sacked are believing that we don't have the players to go anywhere. We need a gun big forward, we need a gun small forward, a gun medium forward, some more elite runners on the outside etc etc.

It is as though subconsciously, those posters are saying that they don't have faith in the coach and instead that we need a full list of 22 superstars to get us over the line, effectively putting a team of champions out on the field. A team that is that so stacked full of talent that they can't fail. Only issue with that is GWS have shown that you can have all the talent in the world but if your system and coaching isn't good enough then you won't go all the way.

Looking at Richmond and Geelong, they aren't a team full of 22 stars, yes they have a few in there but the system and coaching makes them the good team. We all complain that our bottom 6 (or bottom 6-12) are nowhere near theirs but I would argue that their bottom 6-12 just operate under such good systems that it makes seem better than they are. One wonders why a lot of players from premiership teams never seem to be as good as they were at the old club or when we lose a player that they seem to play better at the new club. It is the system that they are either leaving or going to. Funny how the tigers have had decent levels of injuries this  year and their performance may have dipped, they still kept a pretty high standard, even the hawks stayed at a pretty decent level after having their real stars disappear - this  year have lost almost everyone decent in their team, get a few stars in and they will roar past us. 

What I can't see is exactly what our system is. I have commented on this before and commentators and others have agreed in that no-one can really see what our 'brand' is. Surely after 4 years this would be second nature to our players by now and we would be a well oiled machine. Maybe we actually are a well oiled machine under this current system, problem being that the system is rubbish!

Very good post. Agree on your comments 100%. 

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I don't disagree that our list is far from perfect, and it is probably not good enough to win a premiership. But it is definitely good enough to make finals. It is on par with the likes of Saints, Dogs and even Collingwood given their injury run this season.

We have some genuine A grade players in Trac, Oliver, May and to a lesser extent Gawn (when on song yes, but he's had a disappointing season for mine, injury aside). We also have some battlers, but so do most lists. A good coach can tailor a game plan that suits his list, if his list isn't completely horrible or inexperienced. Ratten has done a bloody good job with the Saints. 

We have had a dream injury run, considering the tight schedule and travel we've had to endure, but match day selection and match ups have been very ordinary, and this has been an issue for a long time under Goodwin. He has his favourites, who can do no wrong, and continue to get games when they don't deserve to, and he has his whipping boys.

He has completely ruined Harmes' season by changing his position, and when it was not working, he did not make a change. He didn't play Brown, who was kicking bags of goals in practice games, until very late in the season, and an argument can be made that Weideman should have played much earlier. Then there were team selections, like Preuss up forward, going in too tall, playing too many similar types up forward, and so on. 

I too think he will live to see another year, but if this club wants to get out of the mediocre state it consistently finds itself in, they have to invest big and get some proven assistant coaches, and Goodwin has to actually listen to them. We need to replace the role of strategy coach, which apparently we didn't after Jennings, and we need to get some serious kicking work done over summer.

The simple fact is, you don't trade the bank for Lever and May if you don't think your window is approaching. Goodwin and the rest of the club was obviously planning for finals both last year and this. To have missed out again, is simply inexcusable. 

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21 minutes ago, Jaded said:

I don't disagree that our list is far from perfect, and it is probably not good enough to win a premiership. But it is definitely good enough to make finals. It is on par with the likes of Saints, Dogs and even Collingwood given their injury run this season.

We have some genuine A grade players in Trac, Oliver, May and to a lesser extent Gawn (when on song yes, but he's had a disappointing season for mine, injury aside). We also have some battlers, but so do most lists. A good coach can tailor a game plan that suits his list, if his list isn't completely horrible or inexperienced. Ratten has done a bloody good job with the Saints. 

We have had a dream injury run, considering the tight schedule and travel we've had to endure, but match day selection and match ups have been very ordinary, and this has been an issue for a long time under Goodwin. He has his favourites, who can do no wrong, and continue to get games when they don't deserve to, and he has his whipping boys.

He has completely ruined Harmes' season by changing his position, and when it was not working, he did not make a change. He didn't play Brown, who was kicking bags of goals in practice games, until very late in the season, and an argument can be made that Weideman should have played much earlier. Then there were team selections, like Preuss up forward, going in too tall, playing too many similar types up forward, and so on. 

I too think he will live to see another year, but if this club wants to get out of the mediocre state it consistently finds itself in, they have to invest big and get some proven assistant coaches, and Goodwin has to actually listen to them. We need to replace the role of strategy coach, which apparently we didn't after Jennings, and we need to get some serious kicking work done over summer.

The simple fact is, you don't trade the bank for Lever and May if you don't think your window is approaching. Goodwin and the rest of the club was obviously planning for finals both last year and this. To have missed out again, is simply inexcusable. 

Surely the Monty of all errors is to not having a forward line coach when it is our worst area, Beggars belief.

Edited by old dee
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22 minutes ago, Age said:

It seems that those who don't think the coach should be sacked are believing that we don't have the players to go anywhere. We need a gun big forward, we need a gun small forward, a gun medium forward, some more elite runners on the outside etc etc.

It is as though subconsciously, those posters are saying that they don't have faith in the coach and instead that we need a full list of 22 superstars to get us over the line, effectively putting a team of champions out on the field. A team that is that so stacked full of talent that they can't fail. Only issue with that is GWS have shown that you can have all the talent in the world but if your system and coaching isn't good enough then you won't go all the way.

Looking at Richmond and Geelong, they aren't a team full of 22 stars, yes they have a few in there but the system and coaching makes them the good team. We all complain that our bottom 6 (or bottom 6-12) are nowhere near theirs but I would argue that their bottom 6-12 just operate under such good systems that it makes seem better than they are. One wonders why a lot of players from premiership teams never seem to be as good as they were at the old club or when we lose a player that they seem to play better at the new club. It is the system that they are either leaving or going to. Funny how the tigers have had decent levels of injuries this  year and their performance may have dipped, they still kept a pretty high standard, even the hawks stayed at a pretty decent level after having their real stars disappear - this  year have lost almost everyone decent in their team, get a few stars in and they will roar past us. 

What I can't see is exactly what our system is. I have commented on this before and commentators and others have agreed in that no-one can really see what our 'brand' is. Surely after 4 years this would be second nature to our players by now and we would be a well oiled machine. Maybe we actually are a well oiled machine under this current system, problem being that the system is rubbish!

Totally agree with this and the post below about assistants.

It seems that Goodwin seems to be stubborn and just doesn't  listen.

The SEN interview with Craig Jennings a month or two ago summed it up for me.

This club can't afford another year of this coach. He will lose the players (even more) and the membership base.

I don't want a mediocre footy club either.

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18 minutes ago, Jaded said:

He has completely ruined Harmes' season by changing his position, and when it was not working, he did not make a change. He didn't play Brown, who was kicking bags of goals in practice games, until very late in the season, and an argument can be made that Weideman should have played much earlier. Then there were team selections, like Preuss up forward, going in too tall, playing too many similar types up forward, and so on. 

I both love and hate this paragraph.  Love it, because it is spot on, and I hate it because everybody could see that it wasn't working.

I backed in the idea of Harmes moving to half back for the simple fact that he generally does most things well - he is strong in the contest, good overhead, disciplined enough to shut down an opponent... but he looked lost in that back six and he didn't give us any drive from there at all.  It should have been abandoned much earlier, but instead they persisted, he lost his form and then lost his place in the side.  I'm hoping against all hope that he ends up back in the middle again in 2021.

And the Preuss decision is probably the worst one of the lot.  It was a dumb, dumb decision from a coach who should know better.  Obviously there was some sort of plan in mind, but it really looked like they just stuck him down there with the instruction to kick it on his head.  The problem is that he isn't a good contested mark and moves as if he is walking through mud when the ball hits the deck.  I'd entertain the idea of flicking him to the Giants this off season.

I'm just hopeful that we shake things up and that Goodwin is more open to listening to others and taking that feedback on board.  We will be a much better side if it happens!

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23 minutes ago, Jaded said:

I don't disagree that our list is far from perfect, and it is probably not good enough to win a premiership. But it is definitely good enough to make finals. It is on par with the likes of Saints, Dogs and even Collingwood given their injury run this season.

We have some genuine A grade players in Trac, Oliver, May and to a lesser extent Gawn (when on song yes, but he's had a disappointing season for mine, injury aside). We also have some battlers, but so do most lists. A good coach can tailor a game plan that suits his list, if his list isn't completely horrible or inexperienced. Ratten has done a bloody good job with the Saints. 

We have had a dream injury run, considering the tight schedule and travel we've had to endure, but match day selection and match ups have been very ordinary, and this has been an issue for a long time under Goodwin. He has his favourites, who can do no wrong, and continue to get games when they don't deserve to, and he has his whipping boys.

He has completely ruined Harmes' season by changing his position, and when it was not working, he did not make a change. He didn't play Brown, who was kicking bags of goals in practice games, until very late in the season, and an argument can be made that Weideman should have played much earlier. Then there were team selections, like Preuss up forward, going in too tall, playing too many similar types up forward, and so on. 

I too think he will live to see another year, but if this club wants to get out of the mediocre state it consistently finds itself in, they have to invest big and get some proven assistant coaches, and Goodwin has to actually listen to them. We need to replace the role of strategy coach, which apparently we didn't after Jennings, and we need to get some serious kicking work done over summer.

The simple fact is, you don't trade the bank for Lever and May if you don't think your window is approaching. Goodwin and the rest of the club was obviously planning for finals both last year and this. To have missed out again, is simply inexcusable. 

I am not a big fan of Goodwin's coaching, but to be fair, we only finished one kick away from being above the Dogs and Pies (if they lose tonight).

Edited by Fat Tony
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1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

I know it's been discussed in another thread, but Bennell's breach is just a slap in the face for the entire club and their support of him.  We've done everything to help get his body right and to get him back to playing footy on a regular basis, and this is how he thanks us.  I bet the club, from top to bottom, are absolutely livid right now.

The fine hurts, but I don't think it will hurt too much.  From what I can gather we are in a much better spot than most, so hopefully we are still in a position to make the relevant changes without being hamstrung too much.

We have a lot more pressing problems to solve Wiseblood

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Just now, Fat Tony said:

I am not a big fan of Goodwin's coaching, but to be fair, we only finished one kick away from being above the Saints, Dogs and Pies (if they lose tonight).

Correct, but we still did, and that is all that matters.

We had two golden chances to make finals, and we blew them both. 

Collingwood has had arguably a tougher season, with heaps of injuries, off field dramas and a not so great travel schedule (unlike the Dogs and Saints who admittedly had a great time leaving their hub less than a handful of times). They made no excuses and got it done.

This is what a good club does. 

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I note the names thrown up as replacement coaches over the last few pages are Lyon, Voss and Clarkson.  Just looking at their most recent coaching records I noted:

Ross Lyon (53 years old).  Ladder position over his last 4 seasons 2016 - 2019:

(2016) - 16th

(2017) - 14th

(2018) -14th

(2019) - 13th.

Michael Voss (49) Whole coaching career - 2009 - 2013:

6th

13th

15th

13th

12th

Alistair Clarkson (52) Last 4 years 2017 - 2020.

(2017) - 12th

(2018) - 5th (after finals)

(2019) - 9th

(2020) - 15th

Simon Goodwin (43) Whole coaching career 2017 - 2020:

(2017) - 9th

(2018) - 4th (after finals)

(2019) - 17th

(2020) - 9th.

 

The only year teams coached by Clarkson or Lyon finished above the team coached by Goodwin was 2019.  

Those figures don't convince me that the demanded changes will necessarily reap years of dominance.

Do you have anyone else in mind?

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2 minutes ago, Bimbo said:

I note the names thrown up as replacement coaches over the last few pages are Lyon, Voss and Clarkson.  Just looking at their most recent coaching records I noted:

Ross Lyon (53 years old).  Ladder position over his last 4 seasons 2016 - 2019:

(2016) - 16th

(2017) - 14th

(2018) -14th

(2019) - 13th.

Michael Voss (49) Whole coaching career - 2009 - 2013:

6th

13th

15th

13th

12th

Alistair Clarkson (52) Last 4 years 2017 - 2020.

(2017) - 12th

(2018) - 5th (after finals)

(2019) - 9th

(2020) - 15th

Simon Goodwin (43) Whole coaching career 2017 - 2020:

(2017) - 9th

(2018) - 4th (after finals)

(2019) - 17th

(2020) - 9th.

 

The only year teams coached by Clarkson or Lyon finished above the team coached by Goodwin was 2019.  

Those figures don't convince me that the demanded changes will necessarily reap years of dominance.

Do you have anyone else in mind?

Try the adding the Brisbane coach to your list, he started behind us and there is a good chance they will play in a GF this year. 

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6 minutes ago, Bimbo said:

I note the names thrown up as replacement coaches over the last few pages are Lyon, Voss and Clarkson.  Just looking at their most recent coaching records I noted:

Ross Lyon (53 years old).  Ladder position over his last 4 seasons 2016 - 2019:

(2016) - 16th

(2017) - 14th

(2018) -14th

(2019) - 13th.

Michael Voss (49) Whole coaching career - 2009 - 2013:

6th

13th

15th

13th

12th

Alistair Clarkson (52) Last 4 years 2017 - 2020.

(2017) - 12th

(2018) - 5th (after finals)

(2019) - 9th

(2020) - 15th

Simon Goodwin (43) Whole coaching career 2017 - 2020:

(2017) - 9th

(2018) - 4th (after finals)

(2019) - 17th

(2020) - 9th.

 

The only year teams coached by Clarkson or Lyon finished above the team coached by Goodwin was 2019.  

Those figures don't convince me that the demanded changes will necessarily reap years of dominance.

Do you have anyone else in mind?

You can’t compare those years and coaches over that period.  Hawthorn is declining after being dominant for 6-8 years, so your system is flawed. 
 

If Clarkson was available which I doubt he is, you would take him in a heartbeat. 

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    Match Previews

    THERE’S STILL A HEARTBEAT by George on the Outer

    When bottom side Adelaide scrapped together a win over the Giants last week, a tiny glimmer of hope opened up for the Demons’ finals chances. The patient was in intensive care but not quite finished — there was a faint pulse, a heart beating ever so slightly but was it enough when two more wins and other results were needed to fall their way? The first step was the resuscitation of a team that had lost its last two matches against sides then sitting fifteenth and sixteenth on the ladder. On

    Demonland
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    Match Reports 1

    THE FINAL HUMILIATION by The Oracle

    On Sunday, the Melbourne Football Club that won three consecutive games by in excess of 50 points last month returns to the Gabba, the scene of the last of those victories which was a 56 point drubbing of Collingwood. The Demons got off to a good start and won every quarter with a ruthless and powerful brand of football. They kicked 16 goals that day, their accuracy in front of goal a tribute to the skills the put on display throughout the afternoon and evening. In the four matches playe

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    Match Previews

    GIVEN THE OLD HEAVE HO’ by George on the Outer

    Fremantle gave Melbourne the old heave ho’ from playing finals in 2020, in conditions that the Demons yet again failed to handle.   With the whole season on the line and the need to win to stay in contention for finals, what the fans saw was much the same as they have been witnessing so many times before — a complete debacle and capitulation against a side that sat 15th on the ladder before the game.     Promises made after the loss to the 16th placed Sydney Swans were rendered h

    Demonland
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    Match Reports


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