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Is Goodwin the right guy?  

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5 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Love to see where we are with our opponents uncontested possessions.

 I'd be shocked if we weren't 17/18th

12th for uncontested possessions per game.

And yep, 17th for opponent uncontested possessions per game.

For the record, we're 16th for uncontested possession differential.

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Rubbish. If you’re prepared to hold him to account when things are going badly, you need to give him credit when things are going well. Otherwise just you’re twisting reality to suit your agenda.

Only 3 clubs have clocked an average running speed quicker in defence than in attack for both games. Richmond WB and Melbounre. We are running harder defensively than we have previous season

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3 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Love to see where we are with our opponents uncontested possessions.

 I'd be shocked if we weren't 17/18th

Yeah for sure i would say around there myself.   Pressure gauge is the one i really want to see, [censored] knows where to find it though.

In 2017 we were the no 1 team for pressure gauge.  I bet we are really low on this one too 2020.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

12th for uncontested possessions per game.

And yep, 17th for opponent uncontested possessions per game.

For the record, we're 16th for uncontested possession differential.

The numbers for uncontested possessions last week were apalling, but so Melbourne 

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3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The numbers for uncontested possessions last week were apalling, but so Melbourne 

IMO, speaks to a lack of cohesion and organization. Goodwin speaks of cohesion often, but in over the last 3 games we have made 17 changes at the selection table.

If Goodwin stays on as coach, I think we can expect a lot of change in those around him and (hopefully) an overhaul in the communication between coaches and players. They just look confused at the moment.

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1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

IMO, speaks to a lack of cohesion and organization. Goodwin speaks of cohesion often, but in over the last 3 games we have made 17 changes at the selection table.

If Goodwin stays on as coach, I think we can expect a lot of change in those around him and (hopefully) an overhaul in the communication between coaches and players. They just look confused at the moment.

We will find out quite a bit tonight

If there is no fight, which will be easy to see Goodwin is done

Tonight he has to do it, there is no more learnings, just do it

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On 9/9/2020 at 8:10 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

Whatever decision the club makes I hope it is solely based on the football side of things and not the emotional or financial side of things. If they think Goodwin is still the right person for the job in 2021 then I hope they back him in despite supporters threatening not to renew their memberships. If we get off to a flyer with Goodwin at the helm those supporters will buy memberships anyway.

They need to be prepared for a massive backlash if they do back him in and there is no improvement in 2021 though. Then it won't just be Goodwin in the firing line it will be Pert and Bartlett as well.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but the financial side has to be taken into consideration unfortunately. 

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30 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

We will find out quite a bit tonight

If there is no fight, which will be easy to see Goodwin is done

Tonight he has to do it, there is no more learnings, just do it

We don't do line in the sand games.

We've been pretty consistent over 50 years for falling away badly at the end of seasons. What can a coach do to inspire a frantic effort when they have the personality of a cadaver?

 

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1 hour ago, faultydet said:

We don't do line in the sand games.

We've been pretty consistent over 50 years for falling away badly at the end of seasons. What can a coach do to inspire a frantic effort when they have the personality of a cadaver?

 

Yes i know Faulty, but Mathematically we can play finals

You know that time of year, other clubs are involved in regularly

Edited by Sir Why You Little
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I purposely stayed off this site last night as I’d had a few and whilst not over the top, still thought it wise.

Last night was interesting, both teams played a free flowing game which the likes of Richmond, Eagles won’t allow that style.

I think like the saints game, half time came at the right time as they had all the running and we looked like we were unable to stop it.

Team selections still a weakness and nothing I saw last night convinced me that he should keep his job, make the 8 and it still wouldn’t change my mind tbh we need other teams to lose because we couldn’t beat two teams at the bottom of the ladder.

 We are still super flaky and all over the shop, and I can’t see Goodwin being able to change this.

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Agree with above, not sure why either team thought a shootout was a good idea.

Very different ball game to any miracle finals game we may get to against Brisbane/Richmond/Port/WCE.

A last ditch effort to make finals isn’t good enough

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I said something like this in the post-game thread, but after last night’s game I saw one thing that impressed me - heart.

The boys played with their hearts on their sleeves last night and May said post-match that they all felt for Goodwin this week. They knew the pressure was on and wanted to get the result for him. This shows they are still buying into the system and believe in it, which is hugely important.

Goody also showed heart too. Watching his passion and desperation from the boundary line was brilliant and you could see in a pre-game interview how nervous he was. He cops a lot for his rehearsed, monotone speeches but you can see Goodwin really does care about the club and the boys.

This doesn’t obviously mean all the pressure is off Goodwin, he certainly still needs to improve and learn how to be a more adaptable coach. But he got the boys to bounce back and this was a tick in my eyes. The first half of the game was very reminiscent of how we played in 2018 - yes we leaked easy goals, but we also scored from 16 of 19 entries. It was very exciting to watch.

IMO, what saves Goodwin this year is the relationship he has with the players. Strong relationships are key and the way he checked in and praised Jetta after his bump in the last quarter; the way he celebrated Rivers goal with the boys on the bench; the way he hugged Jones after the siren finally sounded - this shows me that while he is still flawed, the boys believe in him and the culture he brings to the club. 

I still think next year will be make or break for Goodwin, but last night was promising and a really good response from the players.

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I don’t think last night changes my mind on anything, the game was low pressure one way football from both teams we just executed slightly better. It’s telling that swans and freo both bought a more sustainable game plan than Us and GWS with less talent on this list. I still can’t see us taking the necessary steps to become a contender under Goodwin, at best we will be a team that looks good till the heat comes on so maybe with a kind draw we will find ourselves in the 8 again next year but never at the pinnacle.

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5 hours ago, qwerty7 said:

I said something like this in the post-game thread, but after last night’s game I saw one thing that impressed me - heart.

The boys played with their hearts on their sleeves last night and May said post-match that they all felt for Goodwin this week. They knew the pressure was on and wanted to get the result for him. This shows they are still buying into the system and believe in it, which is hugely important.

Goody also showed heart too. Watching his passion and desperation from the boundary line was brilliant and you could see in a pre-game interview how nervous he was. He cops a lot for his rehearsed, monotone speeches but you can see Goodwin really does care about the club and the boys.

This doesn’t obviously mean all the pressure is off Goodwin, he certainly still needs to improve and learn how to be a more adaptable coach. But he got the boys to bounce back and this was a tick in my eyes. The first half of the game was very reminiscent of how we played in 2018 - yes we leaked easy goals, but we also scored from 16 of 19 entries. It was very exciting to watch.

IMO, what saves Goodwin this year is the relationship he has with the players. Strong relationships are key and the way he checked in and praised Jetta after his bump in the last quarter; the way he celebrated Rivers goal with the boys on the bench; the way he hugged Jones after the siren finally sounded - this shows me that while he is still flawed, the boys believe in him and the culture he brings to the club. 

I still think next year will be make or break for Goodwin, but last night was promising and a really good response from the players.

Heart ???? Where was it the previous 2 weeks. This is why we will continue to be not good enough. Also I think that GWS have problems bigger than melbourne.

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What's with all the commentary about it being a "shootout", or a "low pressure" game?

Last night contested possessions were 126-143 and tackles were 54-67.

Against Fremantle it was 142-134 and tackles were 45-65.

In the Richmond-Geelong game CPs were 116-103 and tackles 43-49.

So our game last night wasn't just higher scoring than the Richmond-Geelong game, it featured more CPs and more tackles. And it was a similar set of figures to a dour defensive game played in the Cairns rain on Monday.

As far as I'm concerned, last night wasn't a low pressure, lack of defence shootout. It was a high-pressure contested game where both sides took the game on to put the opposition's defence under pressure.

It's OK to be negative or pessimistic. We're still odds on to miss finals because of our losses to Sydney, Fremantle, Brisbane and Geelong. But what we produced last night was the sort of football that can win finals.

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3 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

What's with all the commentary about it being a "shootout", or a "low pressure" game?

Last night contested possessions were 126-143 and tackles were 54-67.

Against Fremantle it was 142-134 and tackles were 45-65.

In the Richmond-Geelong game CPs were 116-103 and tackles 43-49.

So our game last night wasn't just higher scoring than the Richmond-Geelong game, it featured more CPs and more tackles. And it was a similar set of figures to a dour defensive game played in the Cairns rain on Monday.

As far as I'm concerned, last night wasn't a low pressure, lack of defence shootout. It was a high-pressure contested game where both sides took the game on to put the opposition's defence under pressure.

It's OK to be negative or pessimistic. We're still odds on to miss finals because of our losses to Sydney, Fremantle, Brisbane and Geelong. But what we produced last night was the sort of football that can win finals.

Thanks for digging around and getting the data @titan_uranus.

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27 minutes ago, dl4e said:

Heart ???? Where was it the previous 2 weeks. This is why we will continue to be not good enough. Also I think that GWS have problems bigger than melbourne.

Agree with the first point.  The win was great, but it's still frustrating that we don't bring this sort of effort each and every week.

With the second point, it seems like you're trying to take some of the credit away from the team for the win.  You would happily blame the club for a loss, but then blame us winning on opposition failures.  We worked our backsides off last night and fully deserved the win against good opposition.

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5 hours ago, qwerty7 said:

I said something like this in the post-game thread, but after last night’s game I saw one thing that impressed me - heart.

The boys played with their hearts on their sleeves last night and May said post-match that they all felt for Goodwin this week. They knew the pressure was on and wanted to get the result for him. This shows they are still buying into the system and believe in it, which is hugely important.

Goody also showed heart too. Watching his passion and desperation from the boundary line was brilliant and you could see in a pre-game interview how nervous he was. He cops a lot for his rehearsed, monotone speeches but you can see Goodwin really does care about the club and the boys.

This doesn’t obviously mean all the pressure is off Goodwin, he certainly still needs to improve and learn how to be a more adaptable coach. But he got the boys to bounce back and this was a tick in my eyes. The first half of the game was very reminiscent of how we played in 2018 - yes we leaked easy goals, but we also scored from 16 of 19 entries. It was very exciting to watch.

IMO, what saves Goodwin this year is the relationship he has with the players. Strong relationships are key and the way he checked in and praised Jetta after his bump in the last quarter; the way he celebrated Rivers goal with the boys on the bench; the way he hugged Jones after the siren finally sounded - this shows me that while he is still flawed, the boys believe in him and the culture he brings to the club. 

I still think next year will be make or break for Goodwin, but last night was promising and a really good response from the players.

After the last two ordinary efforts i was worried that the players may have switched off.  Not from their belief / love of coach but the actual message and game style being asked.

Last night don't kid yourself.  For coaches and clubs there was a fair bit riding on the outcome.  GWS making a huge statement of "no nonsense .. get serious boys" prior to the match with the rarest of rare selection decisions, dropping a captain.

So what was last night exactly?  As you say Q7.  There was heart, there was never say die attitude with all the boys pushing for the win and giving no quarter.

How do we rate GWS?  They were sitting just inside the eight after 16 rounds.  They are no sub par ordinary team....when they are ON.  Were they on last night?  Hell yes.  They gave it absolutely everything they had.

It came down to the last few seconds, efforts and kicks and we refused to go down.

And this wasn't just effort or heart.  The most important part for me last night was....did we play with some intelligence with ball in hand?  Was it a significant improvement on previous weeks?  Did we show a little control, poise and finishing skills with ball in hand?  Did we look to stretch the opp and switch to the fat side, look for inside kicks to go through the corridor?  Run in support and in waves off HB & through middle?  Effectively taking the game on with run and smarts but also defending when needed and getting numbers set behind the ball as much as possible on the turnovers.  Williams aside who burnt us (Salem?) on at least two occasions.  

The answer to me to all that is, in the main, a big yes.  Were we perfect?  No.    Is there room for improvement?  Of course.

Will that come from organic improvement or via the list?  The answer is of course both.

Where is our biggest weakness?  I would say it's at least one more quality inside/outside mid to support Tracc/Clarry & Gus.  A part timer here pushing forward could and should be Harmes but we need another imv.

And then there's the forward line.  That to me is STILL our (and SG's) biggest issue from here.

Fat chance of getting him but who knows.  After last night can we sneak a toe in the ajar door a little and snag Cameron?  Lucifer knows, if we truly want this group to play regular finals and maybe a GF or more...THIS is the posi that just HAS to be filled for next year IMHO.

Need to be bold.  Crunch the present list.  Make room wherever possible and land this big fish and we're away in 2021 i reckon.

Is Goodwin the right guy?  The players (at least from the outside) appear to right behind him.  If the belief is still there among most/all, and it seems it is, then there is nothing to stop SG from moulding this group into a battle hardened / winning combo from here.

He certainly has a key component well covered, defence.

Does he need further help at the recruiting table?  Definitely.  Getting this one right at season's end will decide whether he does or doesn't along with SG ensuring the boys play that brand & style we witnessed last night.

Can he/they do so week in week out (8 times outta 10 say)?  While i'm not convinced he is capable of this just yet i saw something last night to suggest the pennies might have just dropped at least with the players finally playing to more of a winning style / method vs the usual "mostly chaos / numbers at the contest / win the clearances but lose the outside" game style we've witnessed far too often over the years.

As to why the message / style didn't appear to work last week or the week before?  Who knows.  Poor selections?  Pruess in for a forward role in the wet, Lockhart sitting on the sidelines instead of blanketing the Docker's most dangerous player, outside of Fyfe, in Walters?  Crazy stuff.

These are the selections/moves (among others) that have me doubting SG's ability/reasoning at times and wavering as to whether he is the right guy or not.

It's all ahead of SG and the boys, baring major injuries in 2021.

I say we bite the bullet & back Goody in from here rightly or wrongly BUT...he needs to listen to some sound advice from someone at the selection table and minimise some of the inexplicable selections we saw against the Dockers (among other matches) AND make sure we play the brand / style (effort/heart) with smarts and finish that we witnessed last night...most of the time, while also adjusting to cater for various weaknesses / strengths of the opponent when needed.

If we can play a winning brand against quality oppo once, we can do it again, and again and again.  It then becomes a winning culture.  Fingers crossed!

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1 hour ago, dl4e said:

Heart ???? Where was it the previous 2 weeks. This is why we will continue to be not good enough. Also I think that GWS have problems bigger than melbourne.

Precisely my point - we played with no heart the last two weeks which is why I was worried maybe Goodwin had lost the players. But last night showed the exact opposite and as previous posters have said, both teams played their hearts out in a very high pressure game. We got the win and worked hard for it, which shows there’s still a pulse at the club. 

Also, GWS have made finals for the last four years and were in the Grand Final last year. Admittedly, they have been hot and cold this year but when on, they sure can play. They are certainly no easy beat.

Like I said, pressure isn’t off Goodwin and doesn’t excuse the last two games. But there were positive signs last night, which showed the players still have the heart to play for Goodwin. You have to take the positive where you can find them or this world would be a miserable place to live in! 

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Referring to Rusty Nails comments above, I agree because it was balanced. We seem to always play with heart, but often not with head.   e.g. Jack V : plays with sheer heart and courage ,BUT so often does not trust the other players aroiund him so he gets caught rather than getting the ball out. Petracca's first instincts are to move the ball on. In the last few week CLarrie has been more expnsive with his ball in hand (eliminating his dinky handballs). He is now bursting out of congestion which gives us a chance. Gus provides that Midfielder who seems to be the link man but he cannot get the ball when Jack and CLarrie are playing keeping off inside the pack The feature of 2018 was the ball movement away from the stoppages and coincidently Jack was absent for a large period of time.

He must learn ,because that is our missing link.

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2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

What's with all the commentary about it being a "shootout", or a "low pressure" game?

Last night contested possessions were 126-143 and tackles were 54-67.

Against Fremantle it was 142-134 and tackles were 45-65.

In the Richmond-Geelong game CPs were 116-103 and tackles 43-49.

So our game last night wasn't just higher scoring than the Richmond-Geelong game, it featured more CPs and more tackles. And it was a similar set of figures to a dour defensive game played in the Cairns rain on Monday.

As far as I'm concerned, last night wasn't a low pressure, lack of defence shootout. It was a high-pressure contested game where both sides took the game on to put the opposition's defence under pressure.

It's OK to be negative or pessimistic. We're still odds on to miss finals because of our losses to Sydney, Fremantle, Brisbane and Geelong. But what we produced last night was the sort of football that can win finals.

 

Couldn't disagree more.

Both teams playing a game based on free flowing, daring footy and systems were almost entirely put to bed.

If we play that way against any well drilled system-based side inside the 8, we'd have little chance. They wouldn't allow it to happen.

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