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Is Goodwin the right guy?  

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Whatever decision the club makes I hope it is solely based on the football side of things and not the emotional or financial side of things. If they think Goodwin is still the right person for the job in 2021 then I hope they back him in despite supporters threatening not to renew their memberships. If we get off to a flyer with Goodwin at the helm those supporters will buy memberships anyway.

They need to be prepared for a massive backlash if they do back him in and there is no improvement in 2021 though. Then it won't just be Goodwin in the firing line it will be Pert and Bartlett as well.

Agreed, but likewise, I'll be ropable if we jump from the Goodwin ship, only to go backwards under a new coach.

Rightly or wrongly, whoever gets thrown in the deep in (if Goodwin gets the sack), will be under immediate pressure IMV.

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Rubbish. If you’re prepared to hold him to account when things are going badly, you need to give him credit when things are going well. Otherwise just you’re twisting reality to suit your agenda.

Only 3 clubs have clocked an average running speed quicker in defence than in attack for both games. Richmond WB and Melbounre. We are running harder defensively than we have previous season

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On 9/8/2020 at 8:55 AM, Superunknown said:

I've emailed that message - short, polite, impersonal - 3 times (replying to my own email each time) and have not had a response. I asked the last one be directed to Pert and Bartlett.

Got a response to mine today acknowledging my concerns and that it has been passed on to GB

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28 minutes ago, loges said:

So has the coach lost the players, which is what I was answering to, or do we have no game plan?

I think moreso the players have no trust in the gameplan.  They play like they are not entirely sure of what they are meant to be doing.  It seems we are pretty happy to have 12 players drop back in defensive 50 and give up the middle and forward line.  It's a pretty flawed plan and i can't blame the players for not trusting in that. It makes them look worse than they are too.

If Simon has any smarts he would scratch the gameplan and go man on man for rest of season.  We are fitter, we can win.  Without the confusion of a game plan over half the side clearly has no idea how to play.  When we play more instinctively we look so much better. When we play accountable, close checking footy we seem to be able to compete with anyone.

So yeah i guess it is the gameplan!  

SImon needs to change a lot in the offseason.  He needs to not play favourites.  Have a discernable style of play and a much better structure + clarity of roles for each role.  He needs to get more ruthless...If he does have the respect of players, he should be giving them a blast at times.  Be furious with them.  If they respect him they will respond.  We need to harness and play with emotion...something apparently Simon does not like.  He needs to change there, all people are emotional and if you want robots crashing in with no thought i think you have our plan A.  Play with emotion and flair or arrogance at times, it is much easier to watch than our horribly negative gameplan in action.  I think our list is probably above average...we don't get to see the skills of our players because they are so riddled with doubt on every decision.  That is Gameplan. This is on Simon.  

I really am not even sure i answered the question in any reasonable fashion.  I could write a thesis on Melbourne lately, the club and our poor State!

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6 hours ago, roy11 said:

Apologies if this had been posted before

How three 2019 losses spooked Simon Goodwin and the Demons

https://www.espn.com/afl/story/_/id/29840981/afl-how-three-2019-losses-spooked-simon-goodwin-demons

 

Thoughts?

 

I thought this was a good article and altho Jennings might be seen as someone with an axe to grind I think what he says makes sense

"in 2017-18 - Melbourne were the highest scoring team across those two seasons combined but still sound in defence, then there was a really sharp turn in 2019 [after Rd 3 when we had been smacked] where the focus was all about defence," he said. "But the challenge when it's all about defence is, it takes a lot of mental maturity to implement and then players can overthink the game and forget to play on instinct, and it becomes too complicated. I've seen more of that this year."

this aligns with my thinking. The players are confused. We have contested ball players and not highly skilled players or mature players. It would seem they are being asked to do different things at different times with the end result being they aren't sure about what to do with ball in hand or where to run. We guard grass and refuse to man up when teams get a run on against us.

As for maturity, no team and I mean none, repeatedly does the dumb things like we do. 4 flying for a mark, no one on the goal line, keep the ball in play in the fwd pocket rather than force it out only to turn into a goal, spoil a ball dierectly to an unmanned oppo player who goals, our kick ins are identical every time, our centre bounce set up is the same and we are too easy to shark, stupid 50m  penalties,  4 players going for a ground ball with no one on the outside, go for HB after HB when its a hurricane rather than kick the ball to advantage and get field position. etc etc 

That is all coaching. Goodwin needs to simplify the game plan, react more quickly when its not working and have reliable dependable strategies for the various phases of the game. Its football FFS.

 

Goodwin is out of his depth

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7 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I have watched this clip a number of times

I don’t think Goodwin has lost the players. Which makes the problem far more serious 

 

Couldn’t handle both games a team dropping a player back, wowee Goodwin, that’s Bush footy stuff and easy to fix. I’m impressed with how much Christian has matured also. Fatigue not an issue Trac says. 

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25 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

I think moreso the players have no trust in the gameplan.  They play like they are not entirely sure of what they are meant to be doing.  It seems we are pretty happy to have 12 players drop back in defensive 50 and give up the middle and forward line.  It's a pretty flawed plan and i can't blame the players for not trusting in that. It makes them look worse than they are too.

If Simon has any smarts he would scratch the gameplan and go man on man for rest of season.  We are fitter, we can win.  Without the confusion of a game plan over half the side clearly has no idea how to play.  When we play more instinctively we look so much better. When we play accountable, close checking footy we seem to be able to compete with anyone.

So yeah i guess it is the gameplan!  

SImon needs to change a lot in the offseason.  He needs to not play favourites.  Have a discernable style of play and a much better structure + clarity of roles for each role.  He needs to get more ruthless...If he does have the respect of players, he should be giving them a blast at times.  Be furious with them.  If they respect him they will respond.  We need to harness and play with emotion...something apparently Simon does not like.  He needs to change there, all people are emotional and if you want robots crashing in with no thought i think you have our plan A.  Play with emotion and flair or arrogance at times, it is much easier to watch than our horribly negative gameplan in action.  I think our list is probably above average...we don't get to see the skills of our players because they are so riddled with doubt on every decision.  That is Gameplan. This is on Simon.  

I really am not even sure i answered the question in any reasonable fashion.  I could write a thesis on Melbourne lately, the club and our poor State!

You answered the question very well top post

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7 minutes ago, SFebes said:

Couldn’t handle both games a team dropping a player back, wowee Goodwin, that’s Bush footy stuff and easy to fix. I’m impressed with how much Christian has matured also. Fatigue not an issue Trac says. 

Yes he was very quick to correct Ben, so this lies directly on Goodwin. He has to change

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9 hours ago, roy11 said:

Apologies if this had been posted before

How three 2019 losses spooked Simon Goodwin and the Demons

https://www.espn.com/afl/story/_/id/29840981/afl-how-three-2019-losses-spooked-simon-goodwin-demons

 

Thoughts?

 

I read this article and it made a lot of sense.

But also when you think about it, it was this ‘helter-skelter’ approach which Melbourne was criticised for earlier in the year. Football experts lamented our team’s tendency to play on quickly, which saw Goodwin change our game style - a style that at times has worked, but in others non-existent. In my opinion, this change is the cause of the confusion and lack of cohesion we are seeing in the group.

In 2017/2018, Goodwin very much implemented this more attacking, contested, play on game style and with a backline led by Frost and OMac, it often cost us goals but we still managed to win games and play a really exciting brand of footy.
 

Then we bring in May, Lever returns from injury and all is expected to go even better. But as the article states, after a successful 2018 and a poor start to our 2019 season, we were spooked when things no longer appeared to be working. Goodwin began to doubt what he had built. Why it didn’t work? Maybe it was the 6-6-6 rule that outdated the style or our lack of forward presence - I don’t know. Either way, the poison of doubt infiltrated our club. 

Since then, bar a few games, we haven’t shown the confidence we did in 2018. We are a shell of our former selves and look confused. And while this makes me sad, it also gives me hope. 
 

I think if Goodwin goes back to the basics he implemented in 2017/8 - refining them slightly so we aren’t playing at the frenetic level we were at the start of 2020, but still competing at a level that allows our contested footy to shine, then we really aren’t that far away. 

Trying my best to be optimistic because I don’t see the club sacking Goodwin this year. Hopefully he can rediscover the exciting footy he brought to our eyes in the season that saw us reach a preliminary final - a final which we might have won had we had Lever and May in the side. 

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The problem I see has always been this, even in 2018, is we don’t have a plan or structure to fall back on or build off. We are just headless chooks. Simon is out of his depth, he got lucky in 2018 as we got a run on but outside of that watching us has been mostly terrible.
 

When things turn bad we have absolutely no structure or safe basic plan to fall back on, that’s on the coach. You can see it unravel before it does, the constant guarding space vs not going 1v1 is embarrassing. It’s like watching a training drill from the opposition. It’s a real mess, even when we do win it’s mostly ugly. Petracca has also mentioned we struggle when sides put a spare man back the last two games, god that’s Bush footy fixable.
 

Some might say his demeanour in the box is nothing but he’s very rude/standoffish to whoever talks to him. The other week you could see Richo talking to him like “aren’t you going to do something” or throwing up ideas yet like Jennings, he was ignored. It’s not coincidental that every time the camera goes to him he’s a deer in the headlights.
 

Currently we are so far away from what Roos created, we have no brand or style. It’s just chaos everywhere you look, that won’t stand up in finals. Well coached teams have structure and plans, we don’t have anything. We have been spun a lot of jibberish from Pert and Goodwin.

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Petracca has no idea what's wrong - but he should have.  He's an instinctive one-touch powerhouse - he doesn't need to be told.  Yet he can't say anything.  This is Neeld all over again - squashing instinct and response out of the players, and telling them their failure is their own fault (because they aren't doing what the megalomaniacal ignoramus of a coach says). 

Petracca describing himself as boring is mindboggling - he's been brainwashed.  But, from where he stands and in context of his talent and instinct, boring is what it is.  Even if it's Goodwin's word. 

I used to be a school-teacher.  I'll tell you one thing - the day you tell a student they're boring, you have lost them for all time.  

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8 minutes ago, SFebes said:

The problem I see has always been this, even in 2018, is we don’t have a plan or structure to fall back on or build off. We are just headless chooks. Simon is out of his depth, he got lucky in 2018 as we got a run on but outside of that watching us has been mostly terrible.
 

When things turn bad we have absolutely no structure or safe basic plan to fall back on, that’s on the coach. You can see it unravel before it does, the constant guarding space vs not going 1v1 is embarrassing. It’s like watching a training drill from the opposition. It’s a real mess, even when we do win it’s mostly ugly.
 

Some might say his demeanour in the box is nothing but he’s very rude/standoffish to whoever talks to him. The other week you could see Richo talking to him like “aren’t you going to do something” or throwing up ideas yet like Jennings, he was ignored. It’s not coincidental that every time the camera goes to him he’s a deer in the headlights.
 

Currently we are so far away from what Roos created, we have no brand or style. It’s just chaos everywhere you look, that won’t stand up in finals. Well coached teams have structure and plans, we don’t have anything. We have been spun a lot of jibberish from Pert and Goodwin.

Summed up a lot of our issues really well.  Listening to the Petracca interview he mentions our system, which i assume is our brand of football.  Our system is flawed and broken.  In trying to add layers to our system it has just got confusing, the constant tinkering has got to the point where we actually have no real discernable system!  It is not even chaotic anymore, just slow and predictable + easy to coach/play against.  We are still like bees to the honeypot, seems like the only bloke disciplined enough to stay on the outside of a contest in Langdon.  We either have everyone going at a ball, or nobody.  Rarely do we just trust a 1v1 and set up to win that contest, nor the following one.  Flooding our backline is another major issue.  No pressure on the ball carrier or their next option are other major issues.   All these problems are structure/balance then discipline.  There is enough information just here on Demonland on how to correct this BS.  The players look like they relish when the shackles are released and can play 1v1.  I think our system is that flawed i would just scrap it for the most part.  Our players are better than this.  We deserve to see it after years/lifetimes of pain supporting this mob.

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10 minutes ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

End of his 4th season and we still have no game plan.  Farcical.

The sad part about it is i have seen Under 12's matches with better structures and more discipline...4 year later they are now in U16's and this is really not acceptable!  The damning part though is this is not U12 or U16 footy, this is an AFL team with millions of $$ being thrown around to help them improve. Where is it?

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11 hours ago, Brownie said:

Got a response to mine today acknowledging my concerns and that it has been passed on to GB

Using snail mail for mine to improve the chances of it getting through to GB.

Besides, a bag of marshmallows and tissues won't make is through via the ethernet.

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12 hours ago, A F said:

Agreed, but likewise, I'll be ropable if we jump from the Goodwin ship, only to go backwards under a new coach.

Rightly or wrongly, whoever gets thrown in the deep in (if Goodwin gets the sack), will be under immediate pressure IMV.

Couldn't agree with you more there, I would back it in if we change coaches now the team will go backwards.

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12 hours ago, loges said:

So has the coach lost the players, which is what I was answering to, or do we have no game plan?

 

IMV i don't think it's as black and white as the coach losing or winning the playing group in a moment or a short space of time.  Don't get me wrong this could happen in rare occurrences at the professional level i'm sure and no doubt more often at lower levels.

The coach could lose the players but it's more to do with them no longer 'believing' in the message / game style as much as they might have early on etc.  The message wearing thin if you like. Or yes, maybe not at all if the losses mount up in a big way.

While no one on the outside would truly know whether this has gone down with some or all within the group, the signs don't exactly look good imo.

If this is the case, GB and Co. will need to get on to it and get on to it very quickly.  It will run through the playing group very quickly and impact the entire club.  And not in a good way obviously.

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17 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

everyone charges in presumably because the mantra is contest - we will be more into contesting than anyone else.  DUMB!

Game plan discussion at the MFC:

"What if we have more players at the contest than any other side?"

"Oh yeah ... great thinking .. smash them at the contest."

"Hear me out ... what if ... we have EVERYONE around the ball? The other sides won't get near it!"

"Ha ha yeah!  But hang on ... what if the other side DOES get their hands on it? They'll all be loose?"

"How can they get their hands on it if it's buried under 25 players? This is foolproof."

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10 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

Pretty laughable, just go to internet sites or dr. google to fix the problems of the MFC or the world.

 

Regarding gameplan/structure or even our players strengths.  There are plenty of ideas on here which the MFC seems bereft of.  There is no quick fix unless we are to scrap our hideous gameplan and take some steps backwards to go forwards again.  See more passion or footy acumen on this site than i seen from our whole coaching group put together.  Rather than laughing at others suggestions or ideas, what would you suggest?

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I think it's entirely possible that the coach has not lost the players, and they believe in his game plan. He can point to instances, even this season, where we've run amok.

There's just this "gap" between playing like that, and playing like the last 2 weeks. Overcome that and we're invincible. Easy to see the players buying into that line of thinking.

What is the gap? If the coach doesn't really know, then the players are never going to know, and are rudderless. Eternally trying to do something that is supposed to work, but doesn't, and not "getting" why.

It won't take too many games like the last two for the players to stop believing. Whether in coach or plan won't matter.

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On 9/8/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

I used to laugh watching us under Neeld, we were so bad at that point there was no point in getting angry. The team was VFL standard and getting within 10 goals each week was a win.

I'm not laughing at the moment because this group actually has talent and it's frustrating to see it go to waste. Our young core if players should be developing before our eyes but they are just stagnating with the exception of Petracca. So frustrating to watch.

Totally agree Dr G. Our list isn't superb but there is some great talent and it's sad to see them flounder.

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I've heard it mentioned by a few different commentators and I agree with them. The coach says we are a contested football team, always get numbers to the contest and outnumber the opposition. If playing this style, you get numbers to the contest but you then almost like rugby, where you win a contest, bomb it long, halve that next contest and everyone moves up and it starts again. Kind of like playing under 12's where almost everyone just runs at the ball and you have a rolling maul go down the field. 

This obviously comes unstuck when the opposition sticks a man behind the ball as you then get outnumbered when bombing it to that contest and the opposition wins that contest and comes straight back at you. Our defense holds up then as we then have the outnumber in our backline. This is shown by us not being scored too heavily against at all this year. 

The problem we have with the above is that we set up to play the above way but instead of moving it forward in this maul type style which actually suits our players as they aren't the most skillful in the world but it also doesn't take huge amounts of skill to play.  We try to finesse it though and are told to hit targets instead or only give it off to a free player (even if he is 10cm away from you it seems!). We are told to be more precise and slow going forward in reply to us previously having so many inside 50s but not scoring enough. Instead of fixing the forward line problem and connection in there, we just went and tried to change our gameplan to this finesse thing. Therefore, we have conflicting gamestyles and is why the players seem confused. 

Apart from the deficiency above, this game style is a really taxing style to play and doesn't give you a lot of easy plays/goals. Yes we are supposedly the fittest we have ever been but if we are going forward to an outnumber and watching it come straight back, this has to be mentally fatiguing. 

I always find it intriguing when an interim coach comes in or a seemingly good new coach comes to a club and you always hear the players, when asked why they like that coach - "he is just letting us play" or something similar is always said. Backlines need to have structure but backmen know this, midfielders just generally hunt the ball and get it forward whilst the forward, whilst having some structure, largely can play on instinct as forwards, having played there for a while, know or learn how to lead or where to run depending on who is getting them the ball. This somewhat random way the ball comes into the forward line is hard for a backline to cover as they don't then always know where the ball is going. 

Simple fixes to our game can be made to turn us into a good team but it seems the coach we have believes that mish mash we have will work and just has to work...

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1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

 

IMV i don't think it's as black and white as the coach losing or winning the playing group in a moment or a short space of time.  Don't get me wrong this could happen in rare occurrences at the professional level i'm sure and no doubt more often at lower levels.

The coach could lose the players but it's more to do with them no longer 'believing' in the message / game style as much as they might have early on etc.  The message wearing thin if you like. Or yes, maybe not at all if the losses mount up in a big way.

While no one on the outside would truly know whether this has gone down with some or all within the group, the signs don't exactly look good imo.

If this is the case, GB and Co. will need to get on to it and get on to it very quickly.  It will run through the playing group very quickly and impact the entire club.  And not in a good way obviously.

I certainly don't think he's coached well enough and also several puzzling selections but has he lost the players? you'd need to have contact with one of them.

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