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Is Goodwin the right guy....

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1 hour ago, Sargent Shultz said:

I have condensed an article from The Western Australian that appeared this morning. It refers to teh sacking of Ross Lyon and I think its applicable to Goodwins coaching philosopy.

Headline- Skill, Demeanour combine to torpedo Ross

Editted article:

He (Lyon) arrived in 2012 and declared he coached effort not skill. He often spoke of skills as something that players should be working on in thier spare time when he was not teaching them the game plan. The poor skill level on show at Freemantle was a chicken and egg situation. Was it the result of poor recruting? or was it a case of players not being drilled to execute skills properly in in the intensity that games take place under?

In the round 16 Derby, Freo buthchered 10 extra inside 50's to kick 2.19 and lose by 91 points (sound familiar?) Finally, against Essendon an edge of 54 in contested possesions, 14 in clearnaces and 11 inside 50's resuted in a 31 point defeat (sound familiar?)

West Coast on the other hand under Simpson when he arrived in 2014 embarked on a summer of kicking drills involving the measurement of kicking accuray- the message to players was kicking accuarcy mattered.

Another thing noticed at West Coast was players who could not shift thier skills were moved on.

At Freemantle, strong role players with dodgy skills kept finding thier way into the team.

What has eveolved at Freemantle, over the past 4 years is a level of skill execution that on good days was just OK, but on bad days led to bizzare and horrendous outcomes (sound familiar?)

My take: Its seems to me that Goodwins main objective has been similar to Ross Lyon - Effort and an unhealthy reliance on measuring success on Contested ball, inside 50's, tackles etc. Somehere along the way skills have taken a back seat- BUT this is what wins games now.

 

Lyon more Roos than Goodwin.

 

I think the article dumbs it down a bit.  Pelchen and Hawthorn accumulated a list of skilled ball-users in the 2000s; West Coast's recruiters have done the same.

You look at Melbourne, St.Kilda, and Freo and they have been basketcases for much of their history.  GFs are absolutely not in their DNA or recent history.  Yet Ross, with his unskilled teams, has got to the big dance 4 times in his 13 year coaching career.

 

He will be back.  He will mellow more.  Get a little bit more Bevo-hugging and Clarko-fun into him.  The sacking will sting.  His pride will endure.  He will be Head of Coaching somewhere.  Only a brave club that can ignore a few loud simpletons will bit the bullet and get closer to an elusive flag.

 

pTGR

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16 minutes ago, TGR said:

Yes.  No other club was desperate nor stupid enough to offer him a 3 year deal like we did.

Happy for you to come up with one club that offered him 1 year.  You probably don't know do you!

What's the problem with the 3 year deal? He was still playing decent enough footy to play most games this year, some people even wanted him to go around again.

From what I understand, he chose Melbourne before contracts were even spoken of.

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12 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It wasn’t stupid to have Lewis on the list for 3 years

A slow club that "needed" leadership.  A self-fulfilling prophecy.  We were and are slow.  He added little.  It was a safe sideways move from an insecure club.

Imagine if Bevo told his bulldogs they needed imported leadership in 2016?  It would have limited their growth.

 

Go and watch the 2018 PF again.  His WOG performance spoke volumes.  Environment was hot, hard, fast, important = pfft.

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Here's the history of our recruiting but I've only included the best (IMHO) 16 players. 

One could argue that 1 or 2 others might have been included and/or 1 or 2 should not have been included.  Present day players only (who will be continuing on next year)

For the sake of the exercise ...

2005 - Jones

2008 - Jetta

2010 - Gawn ,  Tom McDonald

2012 - Viney

2013 - Salem

2014 - Brayshaw,  Petracca,  Harmes,  Frost

2015 - Oliver,  Melksham

2016 - Hibberd

2017 - Lever

2018 - May,  Hore

As you can see it's tough going trying to add more than 2 good players to the list in any given year. 

1 or 2 might be added from our draft picks in the last few years which might include players like Baker. 

Hunt if he improves.

Interesting that 5 of the above have landed from.other clubs but only from 2014 onwards (Frost,  Melksham,  Hibberd,  Lever & May) 

Cross,  Lewis & Vince were all handy acquisitions recruited in more recent years as well.

This thread about Goodwin has to include the players at his disposal.  For context & fairness.

Injuries aside,  our W/L record this season is just not up to scratch. 

Only 3 of the 16 are forwards ... and neither T-Mac or Petracca were recruited as forwards.

Edited by Macca

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38 minutes ago, TGR said:

A slow club that "needed" leadership.  A self-fulfilling prophecy.  We were and are slow.  He added little.  It was a safe sideways move from an insecure club.

Imagine if Bevo told his bulldogs they needed imported leadership in 2016?  It would have limited their growth.

 

Go and watch the 2018 PF again.  His WOG performance spoke volumes.  Environment was hot, hard, fast, important = pfft.

You just don’t get it. We need more experience next year too. I do not give a F what other clubs do. WE need experience 

our leaders Jones and Viney are crap. That is a sad reality. 

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18 hours ago, Macca said:

Not necessarily

If I was to hazard a guess we might end up in that inbetween area.  9-10 wins

And 9 -10 wins next year might look like a figure that we'd perhaps find acceptable now but many will want finals and be dissatisfied with that amount of wins. 

Many others will cop 9 or 10 wins as it takes us out of that mediocre/basket case area. 

If we challenge for the finals or make the finals Goodwin stays on.  Anything less than that and there will be question marks.  Not from all but a reasonable percentage. 

Yep, that would be a bit of a dead man's zone that might see Goodwin retain his spot.

For me, I think it's finals or bust. This list + Pick 2 + Langdon means no excuses.

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17 hours ago, ding said:

Haha thats funny.

Look at you and Binman patting each other on the back for a turnaround that not only hasnt happened yet, but is no certainty to even occur.

Define what you consider to be this "turnaround" and we can have a debate about it. Remember that we played in a prelim last year so that was the starting point before we crashed. Do you think we will get back to that level? A simple improvement to mid table wont cut it as a "turnaround"  IMHO. 

Im not interested in a pissing contest, i just want to hear what you believers consider to be a successful turnaround. To me, missing finals wont qualify even if we finish 9th as we already played in and won finals last year. If we immediately return to the top 8 next year i will be more than happy to suck it up and admit i was wron.. wrrrrr, .... incorrect.

I am extremely sceptical at this point, and unless we have massive wins in the trade period can see next year being a fail as well.

 

15 hours ago, ding said:

Seriously, i dont think you are even trying to understand.

I believe last year was the outlier with the list we have. We just fell into the finals, and once there played a couple of great games, followed by the one which showed our true level. The list has several gaps to fill before finals becomes a regular occurrence imo.

Does that cover it?

You're contradicting yourself.  In one post you say that the 2018 PF is the "starting point" and in the next post you say it was an outlier.  

I think you might benefit from thinking about the trendline, rather than "starting points".  If bettering the PF is the measure of a turnaround then by similar logic finishing below 17th is the measure of failure.  Clearly nonsense.

We achieved above the trendline in 2018 and as everyone acknowledges we have achieved a long way below the trendline this year.  Asking what will constitute a turnaround depends on the factors that come into play.  As you have acknowledged, injuries have been a big component of our result this year.  If we have a similar run with injuries next year then I expect a somewhat better result than this year because we have more experience of managing this situation, but I wouldn't expect finals.

All things being equal, if we get a good run with injuries a turnaround is in the range of play finals -- win a final - that would be back on the trendline.  It's not outside my model that we could win next year's flag if everything goes right, but we could finish 15th if everything goes wrong.  It's a very tight competition.

Edited by Fifty-5
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14 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

 

You're contradicting yourself.  In one post you say that the 2018 PF is the "starting point" and in the next post you say it was an outlier.  

I think you might benefit from thinking about the trendline, rather than "starting points".  If bettering the PF is the measure of a turnaround then by similar logic finishing below 17th is the measure of failure.  Clearly nonsense.

We achieved above the trendline in 2018 and as everyone acknowledges we have achieved a long way below the trendline this year.  Asking what will constitute a turnaround depends on the factors that come into play.  As you have acknowledged, injuries have been a big component of our result this year.  If we have a similar run with injuries next year then I expect a somewhat better result than this year because we have more experience of managing this situation, but I wouldn't expect finals.

All things being equal, if we get a good run with injuries a turnaround is in the range of play finals -- win a final - that would be back on the trendline.  It's not outside my model that we could win next year's flag if everything goes right, but we could finish 15th if everything goes wrong.  It's a very tight competition.

Zero contradiction at all, and you are still not attempting to grasp what i have said.

We are talking about what constitues a "turnaround"... A turnaround based on last years finish which was a prelim. That is the starting point. The rest of your argument is just semantics.

In the end you essentially agreed with me anyway, ("All things being equal, if we get a good run with injuries a turnaround is in the range of play finals") so i dont get why you are trying to make an argument out of it.

 

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13 hours ago, Macca said:

Here's the history of our recruiting but I've only included the best (IMHO) 16 players. 

One could argue that 1 or 2 others might have been included and/or 1 or 2 should not have been included.  Present day players only (who will be continuing on next year)

For the sake of the exercise ...

2005 - Jones

2008 - Jetta

2010 - Gawn ,  Tom McDonald

2012 - Viney

2013 - Salem

2014 - Brayshaw,  Petracca,  Harmes,  Frost

2015 - Oliver,  Melksham

2016 - Hibberd

2017 - Lever

2018 - May,  Hore

Only 3 of the 16 are forwards ... and neither T-Mac or Petracca were recruited as forwards.

For me the real issue with that list of players is that only on of them could be considered an elite kick  - Salem. Melk and Jetts are equal  next best but i wouldn't say either is an elite kick.

One out 16 of our best players brought in to the club over 15 odd years an elite kick? Not good enough. Particularly when you consider that half of that 16 are rubbish kicks. This is a huge issue for us.

If you did a similar list for the bullies say for the last 8 years just off the top of my head they have picked up at least four elite kicks - Mcrae, Bont, Suckling and Dickson (one of the most accurate kicks for goals EVER) 

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38 minutes ago, ding said:

Zero contradiction at all, and you are still not attempting to grasp what i have said.

We are talking about what constitues a "turnaround"... A turnaround based on last years finish which was a prelim. That is the starting point. The rest of your argument is just semantics.

In the end you essentially agreed with me anyway, ("All things being equal, if we get a good run with injuries a turnaround is in the range of play finals") so i dont get why you are trying to make an argument out of it.

 

As you acknowledge, I have provided an detailed answer to your question about what would constitute a turnaround.

First you said you think the problem is coaching and injuries but then you said this could be addressed by good trading.

Next you said that the 2018 PF was the starting point for a turnaround but then said it was an outlier.

I don't think you're expressing a consistent position and have pointed that out to you - you appear unable to consider this feedback.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

As you acknowledge, I have provided an detailed answer to your question about what would constitute a turnaround.

First you said you think the problem is coaching and injuries but then you said this could be addressed by good trading.

Next you said that the 2018 PF was the starting point for a turnaround but then said it was an outlier.

I don't think you're expressing a consistent position and have pointed that out to you - you appear unable to consider this feedback.

 

 

2018 was an outlier imo, but as we actually DID reach a prelim, that has to be the starting point when assessing what a turnaround is.  I think it was an aberration, but it must still be used as our "turnaround" marker because we actually made it.  If i said we can only use the year before as the starting point, it would be ignoring reality. Even a primary schooler should understand the reasoning behind that opinion.

I have also NEVER stated that coaching and injuries were the only reasons for our failure, which was very clearly indicated (i thought) when i suggested we need to have a good off season trade/draft wise, and in a later post actually stated what i thought our list needs were. 

Not only is my position consistent, but you are cherry picking to reinforce your own opinion, not mine.

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2 hours ago, binman said:

For me the real issue with that list of players is that only on of them could be considered an elite kick  - Salem. Melk and Jetts are equal  next best but i wouldn't say either is an elite kick.

One out 16 of our best players brought in to the club over 15 odd years an elite kick? Not good enough. Particularly when you consider that half of that 16 are rubbish kicks. This is a huge issue for us.

If you did a similar list for the bullies say for the last 8 years just off the top of my head they have picked up at least four elite kicks - Mcrae, Bont, Suckling and Dickson (one of the most accurate kicks for goals EVER) 

Agreed BM and we lack real dash out of defence,  our midfielders lack poise when pressed,  we don't have a forward line and not enough of our good players have that quick 'step' or 2 steps.

We've been found out and those thinking that finals are a pass mark next year need to realise that we have a lot of work ahead of us to improve greatly to that point

Pure leg speed is problematic too but not so much if the above obstacles are overcome.  And your point about our disposal issues is front & centre.

But hey,  all things are possible but we need time to right the ship.  Finals in 2021 is more likely after a possible/probable 10-11 win total next season. 

We won't be far off it if we're able to identify our issues and then rectify those issues

Edited by Macca

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I nearly fell out of my chair listening to jordan lewis when he said he had not had any approaches to be involved with a club and or our club next year. Unbelievable. To me the litmus test for Goody is who he appoints as assistant coaches. is he confident enough to have fair dinkum people of Lewis calibre or also rans like this year.

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Yes I still back him in. Yes this year has been [censored] but the players have to shoulder a lot of the responsibility. 

Next year round 1, no one will have more attention on them than Goodwin. 

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40 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

Yes I still back him in. Yes this year has been [censored] but the players have to shoulder a lot of the responsibility. 

Next year round 1, no one will have more attention on them than Goodwin. 

And with so much focus on Goodwin the players (as a collective) effectively get off the hook.

Over the years the players have been dubbed coach-killers here on this site.  Some would say rightfully so.

How many of our good players have had a maximum output year?  I would say none.  Not one player.  Some of it is injury related but Gawn is the only one who gets close. 

And that is damning and not necessarily coach related.  We blamed Neeld for everything but Roos got rid of 30+ players from that era in 3 off-seasons.  So it can't have all been Neeld's fault.  The late Dean Bailey - similar story.

Goodwin needs to coach better but I am way more disappointed in the players output.  5 wins is unacceptable given that any number of our better players could be playing a lot better.

It is my opinion that the players have let Goodwin down.  And they've let themselves down.  There is plenty of talent there but we haven't seen it this season.

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4 hours ago, Sorry kids said:

I nearly fell out of my chair listening to jordan lewis when he said he had not had any approaches to be involved with a club and or our club next year. Unbelievable. To me the litmus test for Goody is who he appoints as assistant coaches. is he confident enough to have fair dinkum people of Lewis calibre or also rans like this year.

TBF we might be in a position where we need to hire an experienced assistant and line coaches. If we had backed up from 2018 to some extent, and finished in 5-10, then we'd probably take a risk on having someone fresh out of playing like Lewis and into the coaches box.

Edited by John Demonic

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 6:46 PM, Sargent Shultz said:

I have condensed an article from The Western Australian that appeared this morning. It refers to teh sacking of Ross Lyon and I think its applicable to Goodwins coaching philosopy.

Headline- Skill, Demeanour combine to torpedo Ross

Editted article:

He (Lyon) arrived in 2012 and declared he coached effort not skill. He often spoke of skills as something that players should be working on in thier spare time when he was not teaching them the game plan. The poor skill level on show at Freemantle was a chicken and egg situation. Was it the result of poor recruting? or was it a case of players not being drilled to execute skills properly in in the intensity that games take place under?

In the round 16 Derby, Freo buthchered 10 extra inside 50's to kick 2.19 and lose by 91 points (sound familiar?) Finally, against Essendon an edge of 54 in contested possesions, 14 in clearnaces and 11 inside 50's resuted in a 31 point defeat (sound familiar?)

West Coast on the other hand under Simpson when he arrived in 2014 embarked on a summer of kicking drills involving the measurement of kicking accuray- the message to players was kicking accuarcy mattered.

Another thing noticed at West Coast was players who could not shift thier skills were moved on.

At Freemantle, strong role players with dodgy skills kept finding thier way into the team.

What has eveolved at Freemantle, over the past 4 years is a level of skill execution that on good days was just OK, but on bad days led to bizzare and horrendous outcomes (sound familiar?)

My take: Its seems to me that Goodwins main objective has been similar to Ross Lyon - Effort and an unhealthy reliance on measuring success on Contested ball, inside 50's, tackles etc. Somehere along the way skills have taken a back seat- BUT this is what wins games now.

 

this hits it on the head for me. we have been great at getting the ball but shocking with our disposal. contested ball is not where the game is won now.

 

we need to go nuts on skills and move those on that can't do all the basics well. players like Hunt are a classic example, terrible skills by hand and foot stuffed up our connection forward so many times. you also need a sprinkling of elite balls users and we don't have them.

 

you could see last year if the chaos ball 'wave' wasn't at full steam, we got into trouble.

 

geez we can't get it right can we, Bailey wanted skills ball users and we got elite ball users in Maric, Strauss, Tapscott and then we can't get the ball.

Edited by Bay Riffin

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13 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

TBF we might be in a position where we need to hire an experienced assistant and line coaches. If we had backed up from 2018 to some extent, and finished in 5-10, then we'd probably take a risk on having someone fresh out of playing like Lewis and into the coaches box.

We gotta be bold as well as get some experience around goody. Going defensive in recruitment will end in tears.

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On 8/21/2019 at 1:27 PM, TGR said:

Lyon more Roos than Goodwin.

 

I think the article dumbs it down a bit.  Pelchen and Hawthorn accumulated a list of skilled ball-users in the 2000s; West Coast's recruiters have done the same.

You look at Melbourne, St.Kilda, and Freo and they have been basketcases for much of their history.  GFs are absolutely not in their DNA or recent history.  Yet Ross, with his unskilled teams, has got to the big dance 4 times in his 13 year coaching career.

 

He will be back.  He will mellow more.  Get a little bit more Bevo-hugging and Clarko-fun into him.  The sacking will sting.  His pride will endure.  He will be Head of Coaching somewhere.  Only a brave club that can ignore a few loud simpletons will bit the bullet and get closer to an elusive flag.

 

pTGR

Ross Lyon as head of coaching with a caretaker role in the waiting should Goody fall would be a great get, and could potentially make us even more of a target for Freo want aways in as little as 2 months.

A. Brayshaw, Cerra, Langdon... and shall we dare mutter the F word. That's the player that could actually elevate this pitiful club once and for all and finally give us a decent captain named Nat for a change.

Edited by John Demonic

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Heard some things today that I can't reveal in depth yet, but it may come to light soon enough.

Schwartz is hyperbolic but his words this week about Goodwin having "lost" or being close to losing the playing group appear to be somewhat based on reality.

Two players, one starting 22, the other probably starting 22 but used weirdly and out of position all year, will seek trades at season's end. The basis of their requests are that they feel underutilized and misused by the current coaching team.

If the names I heard are true, Demonland will go into meltdown.

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12 minutes ago, praha said:

Heard some things today that I can't reveal in depth yet, but it may come to light soon enough.

Schwartz is hyperbolic but his words this week about Goodwin having "lost" or being close to losing the playing group appear to be somewhat based on reality.

Two players, one starting 22, the other probably starting 22 but used weirdly and out of position all year, will seek trades at season's end. The basis of their requests are that they feel underutilized and misused by the current coaching team.

If the names I heard are true, Demonland will go into meltdown.

Wouldn't be related to the 2 players who were bawled out by 2 teammates (on the field)

As stated previously,  that stuff never ends well.

I'm just having a guess though. 

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10 minutes ago, praha said:

Heard some things today that I can't reveal in depth yet, but it may come to light soon enough.

Schwartz is hyperbolic but his words this week about Goodwin having "lost" or being close to losing the playing group appear to be somewhat based on reality.

Two players, one starting 22, the other probably starting 22 but used weirdly and out of position all year, will seek trades at season's end. The basis of their requests are that they feel underutilized and misused by the current coaching team.

If the names I heard are true, Demonland will go into meltdown.

Under-utilised?  Brayshaw?????

 

I won’t doubt some are [censored] off at under-utilisation.  You had Goody’s love/child Lewis getting games for Lewis’s sake, rather than what is truly best for us long term.

 

Which team in bottom 3, season shot, invests games into a 33 year old veteran at death’s door?

I just don’t get it.

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, praha said:

Heard some things today that I can't reveal in depth yet, but it may come to light soon enough.

Schwartz is hyperbolic but his words this week about Goodwin having "lost" or being close to losing the playing group appear to be somewhat based on reality.

Two players, one starting 22, the other probably starting 22 but used weirdly and out of position all year, will seek trades at season's end. The basis of their requests are that they feel underutilized and misused by the current coaching team.

If the names I heard are true, Demonland will go into meltdown.

We'd go into meltdown over Brayshaw, temporarily before assessing value we'd get. But another player that's probably 22? Can't see any melts there.

Edited by John Demonic

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5 minutes ago, TGR said:

Under-utilised?  Brayshaw?????

 

I won’t doubt some are [censored] off at under-utilisation.  You had Goody’s love/child Lewis getting games for Lewis’s sake, rather than what is truly best for us long term.

 

Which team in bottom 3, season shot, invests games into a 33 year old veteran at death’s door?

I just don’t get it.

 

 

 

 

Ah yes, shoehorn Lewis into any discussion. Do you think Brayshaw can play a negating role on McGovern & Grimes? Viney should've been moved out of the middle for Angus. I don't see what Lewis has to do with that move.

"Which team in bottom 3, season shot, invests games into a 33 year old veteran at death’s door?"

A team that is playing best 22 and not tanking.

Edited by John Demonic

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1 hour ago, Bay Riffin said:

this hits it on the head for me. we have been great at getting the ball but shocking with our disposal. contested ball is not where the game is won now.

Contested ball with oversupply of one-paced under-skilled?  True

 

I still think contested ball is a vital ingredient, unless you are Hawthorn 2016 or Ess v Freo.

Richmond surely are good at contested ball and have some metres-gained, line breaking speed mixes.

North are brutal at contested ball.  Even treacle like Ziebel and Cunnington will look like a mozzie fleet against us.

 

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    Match Reports 4

    CROWDOWN by Paddy Gosch

    The Demons open their 2020 season account with a "home" game against the Adelaide Crows at Casey Fields. It’s been more than 5 and half agonising months for the team and supporters who are eager to atone for the disappointing 2019 season which saw the Dees go from Preliminary Finalist to 2nd bottom on the ladder. The preseason campaign has been a hard slog with the addition of respected High Performance Manager Darren Burgess. We caught a glimpse of the gut busting sessions in the Melbourne

    Demonland
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    Match Previews

    THE YEAR THE SKY FELL by The Oracle

    After a number of years of linear movement up the ladder, the Melbourne Football Club unexpectedly went into serious decline in 2019, slumping from fourth to 17th in a season that coach Simon Goodwin described “a complete wipe-out”. Those around the club who tried to analyse the apocalyptic events that unfolded during the year were hard pressed to find a single reason for the debacle but the most plausible explanation was that the club’s troubles stemmed from a lack of fitness and injuries that

    Demonland
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    Special Features

    BACK IN STYLE by Whispering Jack

    From the moment when the Elton John character in the movie “Rocketman” burst into its opening scene dressed as a flamboyant demon on his way to an addiction rehabilitation session, the game was on. Here was yet another film about a person gifted with a meteoric rise to stardom finding coke, booze and a hedonistic lifestyle that led directly to a destructive crash into the abyss. Ultimately, these stories end in total disaster (“A Star is Born”, “Bohemian Rhapsody”, “Judy”) but this one resulted

    Demonland
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    Special Features

    THE TRADING CHRONICLES 2019

    PART ONE - OVERTURE  I have a disclaimer at the outset. I’m not a fan of the races - be they horses or motors of any kind. Once the final siren sounds on the football season, I find the month or so that follows and corresponds roughly with the Spring Racing Carnival to be the most boring time of the year for sports fans. You turn on the radio and you’re confronted by the monotonous drone of a self-proclaimed racing expert or by the nasally twang of an ex-jockey banging on about the equine p

    Demonland
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    Special Features 8

    CHANGES 2019 by The Oracle

    PART 1 - IT’S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THIS TIME This year’s free agency, trade and draft period will see the usual drama and upheaval as the AFL’s 18 clubs seek to better their lists in order to challenge for finals and possibly premiership honours. Long before the final siren sounded on the season just over a week ago, the maneuvering was under way with player agents and clubs discussing possible player movements and in some cases, deals had already been done.  Yesterday, the r

    Demonland
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    Special Features 2

    HOW FAR SOUTH? by George on the Outer

    It was appropriate that Melbourne was playing its last game of season 2019 in Hobart.  After all, how much further south could the team go? And much as it has done in many of the previous 22 games, the side managed to extract a loss from a winning position by simply giving the ball back to the opposition time and time again. In fact, they gave it back to the opposition to the tune of 53 points from turnovers while, by way of contrast North Melbourne contributed  only 17 points to their oppo

    Demonland
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    Match Reports

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