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Is Goodwin the right guy....

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3 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

If the bloke had NFI then he wouldn't have coached us to the improvement we showed in both 2017 and 2018.  Yes, this year has been a bit of a shocker for a variety of reasons, but there have been a number of coaches who have had years like this and bounced back not long after.  I'll back Goody in to do the same.

really...There was a curve of improvement under Roos...  this remained pretty well pointed upwards...even when Roos left..there was a certain momentum to it all.  It probably had something to do with the rudiments of his ( PR ) style still having an effect.,

Move forward and the further we get away from the Roos era then we start seeing the effects of the newbie.  The truth is we've been plummeting downwards for a while. The aberration..not actually the real trend ,was when Goody hit the afterburners.. This ignited the team for sure...but in reality it just burnt them to a frazzle. It wasn't nor ever can be sustainable.

Folk have to ask...why do we have so many injuries..more than a normal amount surely ?  Because we played smash up derby footy last season...until we couldnt...then we had caused mass carnage among our own.

Goodwin is a victim of his own bloody minded stupidity....and the club as a result of that.

Unless wholesale change occurs in the off season...we will be cellar dwellers again next tear..and thereafter.

We had a rebuild given to us on a silver plate....and [censored] it right up

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Interesting reading about Brisbane and their strategy

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-16/science-and-luck-how-the-lions-list-has-come-together

Brisbane's rise up the ladder has been borne from a mix of factors: a coach and football manager setting the plan and driving it; a development program that is well resourced and run; a productive Academy; a playing group that is young, close and committed and a recruiting team that has followed a clear strategy.

Aside from a 'productive Academy' one could argue that we had also put in place a similar plan. The problem being now that it seems our 'plan' is based on a game style that has serious shortcomings.

Brisbane appears to have focused on speed, agility and versatility. It remains to be seen how their game style plays out in the long term and whether it stands up in the heat of finals.

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7 minutes ago, Hellish Inferno said:

Interesting reading about Brisbane and their strategy

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-16/science-and-luck-how-the-lions-list-has-come-together

Brisbane's rise up the ladder has been borne from a mix of factors: a coach and football manager setting the plan and driving it; a development program that is well resourced and run; a productive Academy; a playing group that is young, close and committed and a recruiting team that has followed a clear strategy.

Aside from a 'productive Academy' one could argue that we had also put in place a similar plan. The problem being now that it seems our 'plan' is based on a game style that has serious shortcomings.

Brisbane appears to have focused on speed, agility and versatility. It remains to be seen how their game style plays out in the long term and whether it stands up in the heat of finals.

The Game Plan being actually the most important part, because it is what the club does. 

The rest is all to one side....

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31 minutes ago, Hellish Inferno said:

Interesting reading about Brisbane and their strategy

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-16/science-and-luck-how-the-lions-list-has-come-together

Brisbane's rise up the ladder has been borne from a mix of factors: a coach and football manager setting the plan and driving it; a development program that is well resourced and run; a productive Academy; a playing group that is young, close and committed and a recruiting team that has followed a clear strategy.

Aside from a 'productive Academy' one could argue that we had also put in place a similar plan. The problem being now that it seems our 'plan' is based on a game style that has serious shortcomings.

Brisbane appears to have focused on speed, agility and versatility. It remains to be seen how their game style plays out in the long term and whether it stands up in the heat of finals.

Incredibly good list build.

I get the impression there game style is 'horses for courses'.  Control/kick/mark when it needs to be and fast play on when it suits.  So they can change the tempo quickly within games and change from offensive to defensive play.  They are very well drilled.  And importantly, they developed toughness in all their players. 

They now have a very balanced list which is adaptable to any game style and play tough, uncompromising footy.  They are good to watch.  They will be my favourite team come September.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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2 hours ago, binman said:

And on personnel we have built our list around our preferred game style so have the right players. They just have been not fit or injured. Or both.

But given finals are out what is the point of trying another game style, particularly one we certainly don't have the players for (ie one that requires excellent field kicks and outside pace). If Goody is convince he has the right game plan than much better to stay the course and keep working on it.

...but don't you see.

We don't have the players for this game style.

The old Richmond style you talk of was built around quick movement into the forward 50 because circumstances meant they only had one tall in Jack and a lot of quick smalls who put on maximum pressure. They developed a game around the players they had.

We don't have any small forwards worth their salt fit or unfit...we don't have the any forwards who tackle, we don't have forward who pressure, we don't lock the ball in.

We just watch as it heads out again and again...

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Will he be the first to go in 2020?

If we are not at least around eighth place at the break in 2020 he will not see out the year.

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3 hours ago, Hellish Inferno said:

Interesting reading about Brisbane and their strategy

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-16/science-and-luck-how-the-lions-list-has-come-together

Brisbane's rise up the ladder has been borne from a mix of factors: a coach and football manager setting the plan and driving it; a development program that is well resourced and run; a productive Academy; a playing group that is young, close and committed and a recruiting team that has followed a clear strategy.

Aside from a 'productive Academy' one could argue that we had also put in place a similar plan. The problem being now that it seems our 'plan' is based on a game style that has serious shortcomings.

Brisbane appears to have focused on speed, agility and versatility. It remains to be seen how their game style plays out in the long term and whether it stands up in the heat of finals.

One of the biggest issues glossed over by a lot of people (especially on here) is how the game has changed with the so called "promotion of higher scoring rule changes introduced by the AFL at the end of the 2018 season.

They have slowed the game down and put a higher focus on defence and possession. The chaotic game doesn't work anymore. The Pies and Tigers haven't suffered as much because they built themselves around defence. We didn't - we were a press team.

Some teams have adapted well, obviously we haven't.

All of the attribute the Lions built their list arounds are attributes vital for the 2019 version of AFL. Long story short we got screwed. If you don't believe me look at basic stats like points for and against - we are the worst in the league (well were up until a few weeks agao)

This didn't happen by accident.

We can argue all day whos fault it is... it wont change anything in the short term. Neither will sacking the coach.

So make sure you thank Gil at the AFL before burning the place to the ground. Either way u might feel better, but reality is it won't achieve anything. We need to rebuild regardless if Goodwin is there or not.

Edited by Unleash Hell

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Worth watching.

Less that 12 months ago.

#Goodwincancoach.

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4 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

Worth watching.

Less that 12 months ago.

#Goodwincancoach.

Regardless of how it relates to this thread, watching those highlights make me feel alive again.

I could watch the Selwood/Melksham/Harmes incident on the boundary on repeat for the remainder of this calendar year and survive on bare minimum food rations.

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And a week later...

#Goodwincancoach.

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Remind the players of the smiles and how good it feels. Get that confidence back

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11 hours ago, rjay said:

...but don't you see.

We don't have the players for this game style.

The old Richmond style you talk of was built around quick movement into the forward 50 because circumstances meant they only had one tall in Jack and a lot of quick smalls who put on maximum pressure. They developed a game around the players they had.

We don't have any small forwards worth their salt fit or unfit...we don't have the any forwards who tackle, we don't have forward who pressure, we don't lock the ball in.

We just watch as it heads out again and again...

Rubbish. We have the same players as we did last year who did exactly what you are saying - pressure  lock the ball in and convert. We were the highest scoring team last year. How do you think that happened. By magic?

Last year we had jeffy (before being dropped), then spargo, hannan, vdb and melk all providing forward half pressure. And doing that job super well. The scoreboard does not lie. Again over 23 rounds we were the highest scoring team in the AFL. 

What's changed? Jeffy started and ends the season injured. Spargo has been way out of form. Hannan had a long term injury and has got nowhere near his best since coming back. Vdb has not played a game because of injury and arguably our most important forward melk has barely played a game because of injury (and incredibly is still has more goal assists than anyone bar trac).

Meanwhile bedford and swallow who were drafted for small forward pressure roles are not ready yet., meaning we are playing a kid who a fee weeks ago was playing under 18s footy and another who was loading trucks six months ago.

These are plain facts. Fell free to ignore them but doing so renders your argument we don't have the players for our game style redundant.

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No one has a list of players that could play the game in a sustained fashion as desired by our illustratious brain trust.

Frenetic bull at the gate footy for 100 mins x approx 26 games.

Impossible 

 

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1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

No one has a list of players that could play the game in a sustained fashion as desired by our illustratious brain trust.

Frenetic bull at the gate footy for 100 mins x approx 26 games.

Impossible 

 

Agreed

It's made us beatable on the day and has seriously affected the entire season through injury.

The plan is not right for this group and I doubt any group could make it work

 

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4 minutes ago, Kent said:

Agreed

It's made us beatable on the day and has seriously affected the entire season through injury.

The plan is not right for this group and I doubt any group could make it work

 

Which is why we have adjusted. If people can't see that they're not watching the same games as me. 

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10 hours ago, PaulRB said:

And a week later...

#Goodwincancoach.

And a week later ?

We were a spent force...totally fried.

Many suggest.. and id concur  we were pretty lucky against  Clarko's mob.

Not only were we burnt to a crisp we ended up a bag of bones that needed sending to the repair shop en mass.

The game plan malaise  aside our inability  to field a half decent  team all bloody year is the FD's fault. 

So anyone blaming injuries...or giving that as an excuse , and a golden ticket to Goodwin and Co...consider  who caused it all !!

Edited by beelzebub

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2 minutes ago, binman said:

Which is why we have adjusted. If people can't see that they're not watching the same games as me. 

Then we haven't adjusted enough to make any difference to outcomes

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55 minutes ago, binman said:

Rubbish. We have the same players as we did last year who did exactly what you are saying - pressure  lock the ball in and convert. We were the highest scoring team last year. How do you think that happened. By magic?

Last year we had jeffy (before being dropped), then spargo, hannan, vdb and melk all providing forward half pressure. And doing that job super well. The scoreboard does not lie. Again over 23 rounds we were the highest scoring team in the AFL. 

What's changed? Jeffy started and ends the season injured. Spargo has been way out of form. Hannan had a long term injury and has got nowhere near his best since coming back. Vdb has not played a game because of injury and arguably our most important forward melk has barely played a game because of injury (and incredibly is still has more goal assists than anyone bar trac).

Meanwhile bedford and swallow who were drafted for small forward pressure roles are not ready yet., meaning we are playing a kid who a fee weeks ago was playing under 18s footy and another who was loading trucks six months ago.

These are plain facts. Fell free to ignore them but doing so renders your argument we don't have the players for our game style redundant.

Head in the sand 'bin'...

I just hope the club doesn't have the same problem.

We smashed the inside 50 count, conversion not so great.

... but most of our big scores were against the bottom teams, we also had Hogan contributing to some of those big wins.

We could be thought of as the classic downhill skiers.

If you think it's just a matter of form and injury in our forward half then you really do have the Rose Coloured Glasses on.

 

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53 minutes ago, Kent said:

Then we haven't adjusted enough to make any difference to outcomes

I also wonder just how much is adjustment...and how much is simply the second stringers aren't as necessarily  robust nor hardened to the plan as those who are convalescing 

I would like to think some , if little, acknowledgement to Tempo is in play.

That and of itself is only a part of the 'plan's" problem.  Much about how we play ( sic) footy is about the context of the contest. We , for all our mastery in the ruck really know sfa about what to do with it intelligently afterwards. it would be funny....if it weren't.

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12 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I also wonder just how much is adjustment...and how much is simply the second stringers aren't as necessarily  robust nor hardened to the plan as those who are convalescing 

I would like to think some , if little, acknowledgement to Tempo is in play.

That and of itself is only a part of the 'plan's" problem.  Much about how we play ( sic) footy is about the context of the contest. We , for all our mastery in the ruck really know sfa about what to do with it intelligently afterwards. it would be funny....if it weren't.

Yes Beel The game plan demands one speed ie  fast

Perhaps  some subtle tempo changes would allow better use inside 50  and hence get some reward for all the hard contested work. Th work rate is wearing us out physically in the game and through the  season

And yes it is funny to watch if you are relaxed enough at the footy do so.😁

 

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On 7/8/2019 at 12:58 PM, Fifty-5 said:

Only the blind, biased or stupid couldn't see that we've adjusted to a more possession based game plan since the bye.

Average marks/game pre-bye 83.7, post-bye 103.6

But reverted to type against the Bulldogs?

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1 hour ago, rjay said:

Head in the sand 'bin'...

I just hope the club doesn't have the same problem.

We smashed the inside 50 count, conversion not so great.

... but most of our big scores were against the bottom teams, we also had Hogan contributing to some of those big wins.

We could be thought of as the classic downhill skiers.

If you think it's just a matter of form and injury in our forward half then you really do have the Rose Coloured Glasses on.

 

I broke down the output of all our forwards this year in another thread but to simplify things,  I'll give each forward a rating out of 10 for actual output ... and missing games counts

T-Mac 3.5

Weideman 1.5

Petracca 7

Hunt 3

Hannon 1

Garlett 2

Spargo 1

Melksham 1.5

Petty 1.5

T Smith 1.5

Remember,  the ratings are for actual output.  If you don't play or you don't play in the forward line,  your rating goes down. 

For instance,  Melksham's first 5 games this year resulted in a negligible output and he hasn't played since round 8.

If you were to rate our midfielders individually the numbers are much higher.

We've had a dysfuntional forward line all season and they can't win their own ball and they don't adhere to the fundamentals.  In a nutshell,  our forward line is hopeless.

You need to start looking past the game plan and the coaching rjay.  You're not seeing the whole picture.

 

Edited by Macca
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12 hours ago, PaulRB said:

Worth watching.

Less that 12 months ago.

#Goodwincancoach.

Bray -> Trac. Missed kick by 5m, Trac in space

Trac -> Tom. Kick to def adv, strong mark

Melk -> Weid. shanked set shot, no def spoil

Harmes-> Melk. kick to def adv, def slips over

Selwood slips -> Viney kicks straight to def, ball bobbles Trac -> Jones -> goal

Henderson slips -> Hannan goal

Omac the ol' Reverse Falcon spoil.

I'm on team Goodwin, but I have to admit, it's amazing how when you're winning things just all seem to work out in your favour, ball bounces the right way, opposition panics, our mistakes get covered up.

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18 minutes ago, Macca said:

You need to start looking past the game plan and the coaching rjay.  You're not seeing the whole picture.

If you look back 'Macca' you will understand that I am seeing the picture you're talking about.

15 hours ago, rjay said:

We don't have any small forwards worth their salt fit or unfit...we don't have the any forwards who tackle, we don't have forward who pressure, we don't lock the ball in.

I will add to that, our tall forwards are virtually non existent.

Our problem is personnel, planning and coaching.

I don't think it's terminal but will need quite a bit of work to fix.

The first step is recognition of the problem and the problem is not just injuries (as the rose coloured brigade would have us believe)...

Edited by rjay
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I respectfully say adios to this thread. It's not good for my mental health.

I'm putting in on ignore and leaving it to the handful of brave souls (you know who you are) to fight the good fight against black and white thinking, reinventing history, ignoring facts that don't fit a preferred narrative (eg we haven't adjusted our game plan, totally ignoring the fact we have) and confusing symptom with cause. All to arrive at the conclusion Goody is the problem. 

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