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Is Goodwin the right guy....

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11 hours ago, Vineytime said:

Get Roos back to assist Goody and oversee assistant coaches, dont let Carlton snaffle him

Lol - is this based on a certain dribbling oaf employed by Fox Sports claiming that he can “see Roos and Voss coaching together at Carlton”? I don’t think the fact that he can imagine it gives it any credence. He’s just making s*** up.

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20 minutes ago, Colm said:

Came over from Ireland about 10 years ago and have been supporting the dees about 8 so I’m not nearly as long suffering or clued in as most people posting here. 

But when we pride ourselves and game style as been best and hardest at contested ball and you end up having 17 players needing surgery in the off season surely alarm bells have to start ringing- maybe our bodies can’t stand up to our style of play?? This seem obvious before the season started but yet apart from kk who was just an add on in the May deal we didn’t recruit players with other skills sets- like been able to kick or run😳  

The manic contested ball game worked and won Collingwood, Richmond and dogs a GF since I’ve been here. But they all dropped of the following year as it’s not sustainable, perhaps we peaked with that style last year. Since I’ve been here the 2 teams who have been on top for long periods have been the hawks and Geelong. Neither go for manic contested ball and they stay at the top and have lots of players playing into their mid 30,s. 

Surley a blind man can see we need a new game plan and if goody can’t or won’t come up with one then we may need a new coach?!

Colm

Amazing clarity from an observer  not hampered by too many years despondent barracking.

Well done..summed it up very clearly, correctly and concisely.

Id love to recruit blind Freddy to our FD...probably has more of a clue than our lot combined.

I have to ask...why on earth did you pick us ??? lol

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1 hour ago, Colm said:

Came over from Ireland about 10 years ago and have been supporting the dees about 8 so I’m not nearly as long suffering or clued in as most people posting here. 

But when we pride ourselves and game style as been best and hardest at contested ball and you end up having 17 players needing surgery in the off season surely alarm bells have to start ringing- maybe our bodies can’t stand up to our style of play?? This seem obvious before the season started but yet apart from kk who was just an add on in the May deal we didn’t recruit players with other skills sets- like been able to kick or run😳  

The manic contested ball game worked and won Collingwood, Richmond and dogs a GF since I’ve been here. But they all dropped of the following year as it’s not sustainable, perhaps we peaked with that style last year. Since I’ve been here the 2 teams who have been on top for long periods have been the hawks and Geelong. Neither go for manic contested ball and they stay at the top and have lots of players playing into their mid 30,s. 

Surley a blind man can see we need a new game plan and if goody can’t or won’t come up with one then we may need a new coach?!

Colm

All good points Colm.

Rather than a 'new' game plan, I think the more likely is a tweaking of our current game plan which will preserve players and still move the ball on quickly. I'm not a wrist slasher like some others on here, I think Goodwin is still developing what can be a successful plan. He will certainly change parts of what we are doing over the preseason, good coaches always do. Hardwick and Buckley have done this.

Part of our problem has been in decision making and poor delivery going forward. The crash and bash has been amplified by a lack of clean disposal and entry to the forward 50. Many of our mids are still relatively inexperienced, and IMO we lack senior leaders. I love him, but don't believe Jones to be a leader, he all too often goes missing when we need him most. As the list matures, so will our game plan.

I think we are a classy outside mid (or 2, e.g. Langdon) and a good small forward away from showing what we can really do. Lockard looks to have potential as a small forward, imagine him alongside Dan Butler. Get more games into the young guys, improve their decision making and disposal (Gus, ANB, Trac), and add outside class. 

That and keeping players on the park, whoever replaces Misso needs to be best in industry. I think we supporters often underestimate the importance of this role.

Welcome to Demonland.

Edited by Moonshadow
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1 hour ago, Colm said:

The manic contested ball game worked and won Collingwood, Richmond and dogs a GF since I’ve been here. But they all dropped of the following year as it’s not sustainable

1 of those teams made the GF the year after their premiership, the prelim the year after that, another made a prelim and was the best side all year and this year have been crueled by injuries and still sits with a chance of getting a to 4 finish. So 3 years at the absolute pointy end is pretty sustainable. 

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Plain and simple.

Both Buckley and Hardwick had years like this with similarly talented lists. 

They changed, Goodwin needs to follow suit. He needs to show a level of maturity and realise that his system, game plans, ideas and approach to the game need to have more fluidity to them. The game is always changing, even if slightly so. 

Last year a certain system and style of play worked and was the meta. This year slight rule changes have meant that coaches have needed to deploy some level of change. I think everyone got swept away with our last five games and two finals performances and believed that it would almost just happen again. 

Obviously there is no doubting the other contributiong factors to our season such as injuries, poor development etc etc.

It's the season Goody needed imo. 

 

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33 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

1 of those teams made the GF the year after their premiership, the prelim the year after that, another made a prelim and was the best side all year and this year have been crueled by injuries and still sits with a chance of getting a to 4 finish. So 3 years at the absolute pointy end is pretty sustainable. 

-Collingwood c 2010 - 2012 when Malthouse was coach (2010/11), right?  His game plan carried over to Buckley in 2012.  So not a valid comparison to 2016 -2018. 

-Richmond adopted the manic, contested ball style at start of 2017 and showed it to be sustainable in 2018 without injuries but as soon as injuries strike they suffer ie 2019. 

-WBD had a 5 week purple patch in 2016 and haven't been seen since.

These show @Colm point that manic, contested ball is not sustainable, to be valid.

I would add our style causes fatigue and leads to injury.  A high number of our preseason surgeries were hip and shoulder - the parts of the body that take the most battering when crashing into an opp.  Don't think it is coincidence. 

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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2 hours ago, Colm said:

Came over from Ireland about 10 years ago and have been supporting the dees about 8 so I’m not nearly as long suffering or clued in as most people posting here. 

But when we pride ourselves and game style as been best and hardest at contested ball and you end up having 17 players needing surgery in the off season surely alarm bells have to start ringing- maybe our bodies can’t stand up to our style of play?? This seem obvious before the season started but yet apart from kk who was just an add on in the May deal we didn’t recruit players with other skills sets- like been able to kick or run😳  

The manic contested ball game worked and won Collingwood, Richmond and dogs a GF since I’ve been here. But they all dropped of the following year as it’s not sustainable, perhaps we peaked with that style last year. Since I’ve been here the 2 teams who have been on top for long periods have been the hawks and Geelong. Neither go for manic contested ball and they stay at the top and have lots of players playing into their mid 30,s. 

Surley a blind man can see we need a new game plan and if goody can’t or won’t come up with one then we may need a new coach?!

Colm

Pies and Tigers barely dropped off. They were beaten by better teams in the year following their flags. Bulldogs are doing a Hawthorn. Won their 2008 flag equivalent and are now on the steady climb back up. May play finals this year with a strong remaining 2 months. They'll bounce back but their drop off was a combination of things. IMO our drop and injuries are more to do with poor player management than gameplan. It is a physical sport. I don't buy this suggestion that playing a contested brand leads to a drop off. There's no consistent theme to suggest that. This year has been a combination of poor player management, bad timing, and stubborn coaching.

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2 hours ago, ManDee said:

Been here for two minutes and telling us what to do, where do you get off Colm? 

Well done by the way and welcome to the looney bin.

As the saying goes, "out of the mouth of babies'. Well said Colin, I agree with the sentiments that it is not sustainable, none the least being other sides learn to counter the main crash and bash players. 

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1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

-Collingwood c 2010 - 2012 when Malthouse was coach (2010/11), right?  His game plan carried over to Buckley in 2012.  So not a valid comparison to 2016 -2018. 

-Richmond adopted the manic, contested ball style at start of 2017 and showed it to be sustainable in 2018 without injuries but as soon as injuries strike they suffer ie 2019. 

-WBD had a 5 week purple patch in 2016 and haven't been seen since.

These show @Colm point that manic, contested ball is not sustainable, to be valid.

I would add our style causes fatigue and leads to injury.  A high number of our preseason surgeries were hip and shoulder - the parts of the body that take the most battering when crashing into an opp.  Don't think it is coincidence. 

First on the Dogs: I 100% agree their flag is a complete outlier. I'm not sure if it was a fluke or before their time or something else, but they probably shouldn't be used as reliable evidence in any arguments.

As for everything else I suspect we could go on and on in circles forever.

You say Collingwood's 2010-12 game plan doesn't count because there's different coaches coached the same plan? I'm not sure if that's meant to discredit my point but essentially saying it's sustainable regardless of who is in charge seems more to support my point

Richmond's the only club to come near us in injury count from the start and is hurt them. But the argument could also be made that their contested game is simpler, easier and allowed lesser quality players to keep them in the hunt. Don't count them out yet. A win this week and they'll be 5th a game clear of 6th and likely only percentage off 4th with a pretty favourable run home. 

We've seen Collingwood in recent weeks struggling more with their high skill reliance slow moving game plan now that injurys have hit. Geelong has been dominant with that high skilled game but have had few injurys and Brisbane who do play fast, contested footy have flown up the ladder with a near record low games missed to injury.

I'm not saying we shouldn't change some things, that would be madness, I've always thought we should move the ball more by foot. But throwing it out completely is a massive over reaction. 

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2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I would add our style causes fatigue and leads to injury.  A high number of our preseason surgeries were hip and shoulder - the parts of the body that take the most battering when crashing into an opp.  Don't think it is coincidence

this  ^^  this ^^  THIS ^^^^^^^^^^

This can't be ignored. It's central to our predicament.  Actually in many respects it's a very predictable coincidence...as to invoke one directly caused the other.

And again...our problems are by design.....a very flawed one. The Architects are still in charge. It's all about as unlikely as the Opal Tower really...

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9 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

this  ^^  this ^^  THIS ^^^^^^^^^^

This can't be ignored. It's central to our predicament.  Actually in many respects it's a very predictable coincidence...as to invoke one directly caused the other.

And again...our problems are by design.....a very flawed one. The Architects are still in charge. It's all about as unlikely as the Opal Tower really...

If the trend continues next year pre Queens Birthday, then the door will be opened and desks cleaned out. 

This has been a long worry to me, that Goodwin wants to play September Football for 6 months solid, but it cannot be sustained for more than one month at full tilt. 

He needs to learn more about ramping up and down, even within games. 

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3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I would add our style causes fatigue and leads to injury.  A high number of our preseason surgeries were hip and shoulder - the parts of the body that take the most battering when crashing into an opp.  Don't think it is coincidence. 

Interesting theory that warrants further dispassionate discussion.

I suspect the best measurement is how many times our players are tackled but perversely it usually means that if you are tackled often you have the ball and win.

On a related note I'm starting to think the lists are now too small and should be expanded by around 5 players to allow for back up and developing KPP's.

Interesting discussion yesterday on one of the sports radio stations that coaches are coaching not to lose for the first three quarters and then playing manic in the last quarter.

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3 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

You say Collingwood's 2010-12 game plan doesn't count because there's different coaches coached the same plan? I'm not sure if that's meant to discredit my point but essentially saying it's sustainable regardless of who is in charge seems more to support my point

2010-2012 doesn't count because Buckley hadn't made many game plan/list management changes to the Malthouse legacy,  in 2012 and their style of play in 2017-2019 bears little resemblance to those earlier years. 

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

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18 hours ago, Vineytime said:

Get Roos back to assist Goody and oversee assistant coaches, dont let Carlton snaffle him

Bluddoath. Now that would be a fix.

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Where is the Melbourne Football Club at?

Lyon: They’re the most disappointing team of the year. Carlton win this weekend against Gold Coast and Melbourne loses to West Coast, then they’ll drop to 17th. Their defence is looking okay, the midfield is a bit messy but finds plenty of the footy, but it remains the front half.

Lyon: Simon Goodwin is getting a bit of pass because of what happened last year, but gee it’s coming next year.

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You can use all the injuries and off season surgeries as an excuse, but he can't be finishing 17th with a list that got them to a prelim last year and could've finished second after round 23 if we actually held our nerve against Geelong twice.

Sure it's not the end of the world he missed finals, but we still should be around the 11-14 vicinity. Not 17th (after next week!)

Unless the club can't afford to pay him out with a sacking, he should be under severe notice next year by his CEO and board.

Edited by Bring-Back-Powell
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Goodwin asks supporters to stick by them... I’ve been hearing that line since the 70s... Injuries aside which top teams have had eg tigers are still winning games... our list dissent bat deep enough, vfl base players, game plan exposed & not sure of our leadership as both jones & Viney have hardly set the world on fire!

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If we get a good run at it next year with injuries, and we're still struggling, then he deserves to have the pressure heaped on him.

But our best 22 players have missed more game time than any other club and that's been a very steep learning curve for everyone involved.  Big pre-season coming up for Goody, but for the time being, I'll back him in.

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We’ve clearly made mistakes this year, but we’ve had an unbelievable run of injuries. It’s been ridiculous.

And the reality is, we (quite reasonably) put faith in players like Tom McDonald this year. As much as I like and respect him, he’s been schizen for 95% of the year (by his own admission).

We’ve also lost a few games we absolutely should’ve won - probably should have 8 wins thus far.  Not top 8 but still in the mix.

So, despite it being a really tres ordinaire year, there are tangible reasons underlying our poor performance.

In short, we’ll be back. I feel confident of this.

I rate Goodwin.

 

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The club stuffed up pre season full stop!  Goodwin is part of that, but so is Mahoney and the rest.  As for the actual season, too many of our best 22 who have been on the park have been ordinary.  

Currently I have no faith trust or belief that Mahoney and his team can recruit, develop and instil a winning culture.  I will always be Melbourne, however trust will only come when we become a good team who plays finals regularly and the club culture changes dramatically.  Let’s see, no choice but to wait as usual.  Supporters have no choice but to watch on.  Just don’t give me the same old hope BS!

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On 7/10/2019 at 9:22 AM, Nasher said:

Lol - is this based on a certain dribbling oaf employed by Fox Sports claiming that he can “see Roos and Voss coaching together at Carlton”? I don’t think the fact that he can imagine it gives it any credence. He’s just making s*** up.

You may end up surprised Nasher...

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I think that this year will, in retrospect, be the making of this footy team. The humiliation and frustration of the club (players coaches and supporters) will cause a young talented list to grow the [censored] up and work hard and play mean smart and brutal footy. 

Our game style is finals style when we can get our best on the ground, and our coach and the FD will learn a lot from the adversity of this year, that will serve us well in years to come. 

As Winston Churchill once said  “Victory is going from defeat to defeat without a loss of enthusiasm.”. 

Were learning and growing as a club team and coaching group this year. 

Be patient.

 

Edited by PaulRB
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1 minute ago, PaulRB said:

I think that this year will, in retrospect, be the making of this footy team. The humiliation and frustration of the club (players coaches and supporters) will cause a young talented list to grow the [censored] up and work hard and play mean smart and brutal footy. 

Our game style is finals style when we can get our best on the ground, and our coach and the FD will learn a lot from the adversity of this year, that will serve us well in years to come. 

As Winston Churchill oncevsaid “Victory is going from defeat to defeat without a loss of enthusiasm.”. 

Were learning and growing as a club team and coaching group this year. 

Be patient.

 

There are several posters here who would’ve surrendered to the Germans after the collapse of France.

Churchill would’ve loved to have been a Demons’ supporter right now.

It’s moments like these when true character shines through.

Get around the club everyone. We’ll be back next year.

 

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