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Is Goodwin the right guy....

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17 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Far from it Sunshine, i have been hoping this team would improve “Over the next few years” since 1971. That year we won the first 8 games, but failed to make the Finals....

As only we do....

Sadly very true swyl.

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1 minute ago, old dee said:

Sadly very true swyl.

And i am told to be Patient.....

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

And i am told to be Patient.....

 

 

That is what started me off. " In the next few years" if 2020 is not a finals year then forget the rest we will not be up to it.

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There is nothing wrong with having high standards and expectations but those alone dont guarantee success.

Successful sides generally have experience and talent. Usually both are combined all over the ground.

Look at the good sides of early 00s and the good sides early this decade. 

Its been the past few years that young trams come out of no where. Dogs have fallen off the perch tigs are still around the mark.

I guess the question for us demonlanders is do we want to build something which takes time and detours or do we want the off chance of having a crack by recycling players and coaches  (kind of like yatzee) to see if we can pull off a miracle.

There are no gaurantees in this game. Rules change, players change, umpires change the game. There are so many dynamics.

I think phil Jackson and mick malthouse have summed up success pretty well.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

There is nothing wrong with having high standards and expectations but those alone dont guarantee success.

Successful sides generally have experience and talent. Usually both are combined all over the ground.

Look at the good sides of early 00s and the good sides early this decade. 

Its been the past few years that young trams come out of no where. Dogs have fallen off the perch tigs are still around the mark.

I guess the question for us demonlanders is do we want to build something which takes time and detours or do we want the off chance of having a crack by recycling players and coaches  (kind of like yatzee) to see if we can pull off a miracle.

There are no gaurantees in this game. Rules change, players change, umpires change the game. There are so many dynamics.

I think phil Jackson and mick malthouse have summed up success pretty well.

With Roos we took the 'build that takes time' approach.  Since then Goodwin has used all our best draft chips to trade in 'recycled players' with Hibberd, Melksham, Lever, May.  We had five bob each way.  So of the two options presented, we are now in the 'pull off a miracle' space.

Our experienced good players are getting old quickly:  Lewis, Hibberd, Jones.  In a couple of years Tom Mcd, Jetta, Melksham, Gawn and May will be 30+.  Our young good players are knocking on the door of the magical 100 -150 games right now.

Given those demographics we really don't have years to strike a blow, so to speak. Our window is NOW!  

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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13 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

With Roos we took the 'build that takes time' approach.  Since then Goodwin has used all our best draft chips to trade in 'recycled players' with Hibberd, Melksham, Lever, May.  We had five bob each way.  But on the two options presented, we are now in the 'pull of a miracle' space.

Our experienced good players are getting old quickly:  Lewis, Hibberd, Jones.  In a couple of years Tom Mcd, Jetta, Melksham, Gawn and May will be 30+.  Our young good players are knocking on the door of the magical 100 -150 games right now.

Given those demographics we really don't have years to strike a blow, so to speak. Our window is NOW!  

Spot on LH it is 2020/21 or never.

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55 minutes ago, old dee said:

Spot on LH it is 2020/21 or never.

And given where we have come from, a failure to repeatedly challenge (to win one requires a bit of luck) for the Flag is a monumental, member demoralising, sponsor alienating disaster.

We've been patient through the Bailey years, and Neeld years (the Schwab fiascos), and the Roos years. Now there are NO excuses left. We either make it to repeat finals, or the Club has failed its members catastrophically.

Of course, some of us have been patient for even longer. Me - I was at 64. Nothing since.

I don't blame the players - for some of those times, they just weren't AFL players, other times we ran into forces of nature (Ess and Haw in those 2 grand finals). But this year, after a prelim, to be nearly on the bottom is totally unacceptable. Clarkson would not have this team on the bottom. Ross Lyon would not have this team on the bottom. There's enough talent to do better.

 

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1 hour ago, old dee said:

Spot on LH it is 2020/21 or never.

If we don't make the finals in 2020 the Roos rebuild will have been derailed beyond repair. It's now or never. Goodwin has just spent his one get out of jail free card. 

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11 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

If we don't make the finals in 2020 the Roos rebuild will have been derailed beyond repair. It's now or never. Goodwin has just spent his one get out of jail free card. 

You’re going with the scattershot method, aren’t ya mate?

Pot everyone, blame everything, in the end you’ll eventually be correct with one of them.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

With Roos we took the 'build that takes time' approach.  Since then Goodwin has used all our best draft chips to trade in 'recycled players' with Hibberd, Melksham, Lever, May.  We had five bob each way.  So of the two options presented, we are now in the 'pull off a miracle' space.

Our experienced good players are getting old quickly:  Lewis, Hibberd, Jones.  In a couple of years Tom Mcd, Jetta, Melksham, Gawn and May will be 30+.  Our young good players are knocking on the door of the magical 100 -150 games right now.

Given those demographics we really don't have years to strike a blow, so to speak. Our window is NOW!  

In your opinion its now or never. It isnt a fact and there is no guarantee of success 

 

Edited by Unleash Hell
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There are a few Demonland regulars missing over the last month.

I have no idea why!!

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Posted (edited)

 

46 minutes ago, old dee said:

There are a few Demonland regulars missing over the last month.

I have no idea why!!

I suspect a severe case of MFCSS OD...

wine.gif.aa3d0dc3f75bbace5f563a7ddc5a5f6d.gif

Edited by Rusty Nails
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2 hours ago, frankie_d said:

And given where we have come from, a failure to repeatedly challenge (to win one requires a bit of luck) for the Flag is a monumental, member demoralising, sponsor alienating disaster.

We've been patient through the Bailey years, and Neeld years (the Schwab fiascos), and the Roos years. Now there are NO excuses left. We either make it to repeat finals, or the Club has failed its members catastrophically.

Of course, some of us have been patient for even longer. Me - I was at 64. Nothing since.

I don't blame the players - for some of those times, they just weren't AFL players, other times we ran into forces of nature (Ess and Haw in those 2 grand finals). But this year, after a prelim, to be nearly on the bottom is totally unacceptable. Clarkson would not have this team on the bottom. Ross Lyon would not have this team on the bottom. There's enough talent to do better.

 

Yes, and some on here would have been defending Schwab and others calling out anyone who criticized the Club direction in those times. The conga line supporters.

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On 6/15/2019 at 6:01 PM, drysdale demon said:

I am with you on that. When things turn around over the next few years a lot of the posts are going to be thrown back at posters.

rubbish. the team is one win off the bottom, halfway through the season. It is completely reasonable to have concerns and criticisms. you can only critique after the fact.

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On 6/15/2019 at 9:59 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

Far from it Sunshine, i have been hoping this team would improve “Over the next few years” since 1971. That year we won the first 8 games, but failed to make the Finals....

As only we do....

i have to take issue here with you SWYL on this one . it was 1965 where we won the first  8 and didnt make the finals .In 1971 we only won the first 5 before being beaten by Collingwood in round 6 but again didnt make the finals .On a slightly brighter note we did win the Night Premership in season 1971 so does that count as our elsive post 1964 premiership ?

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8 minutes ago, kallangurdemon said:

i have to take issue here with you SWYL on this one . it was 1965 where we won the first  8 and didnt make the finals .In 1971 we only won the first 5 before being beaten by Collingwood in round 6 but again didnt make the finals .On a slightly brighter note we did win the Night Premership in season 1971 so does that count as our elsive post 1964 premiership ?

Was it only 6 in ‘71?

Must look that up again

no the night flag is not enough. I remember listening to that on the radio 📻   

Lake Oval

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13 hours ago, old dee said:

That is what started me off. " In the next few years" if 2020 is not a finals year then forget the rest we will not be up to it.

Y'know, Old Dee, it becomes an issue of football success being / becoming a highly offensive topic as the Coach suggests 'patience' to a Demon supporter. 'In the next few years...' has become a mantra of lies and deception. When the cycles turn, and the MFC is up there, at the top, we fall short and this pattern has become very repetitive in the span of a lifetime. 'Patience' states the outsider with a contract, indeed. It's as reliable as the blind signing of the next outsider to benefit from the desperation we display. The next year assures no promise, merely a re-entry into some imposed cycle of misery. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

In your opinion its now or never. It isnt a fact and there is no guarantee of success

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smart alec.  I agree there are no guarantees of a premiership.

By 'now' I meant this is when we need to 'contend'  ie be in Prelims and Grand Finals.  I think this window is open until 2021 or 2022 latest.

My reasons are:

  • We are in the 6th year of the latest rebuild and our list, with one or two gaps is virtually complete.
  • Our list has been built not to make up the numbers but to regularly contend.  Contending in 2019 was why we got May.  2019 is now a write-off so a bit or work to do to get back into contention.
  • The demographics suggest some of our best players will have retired or not best 22 by 2022. 
  • In years 2021-2023 our best youngsters become Restricted Free Agents:  Salem, Harmes, Hunt, Brayshaw, Petracca, Oliver, Weideman.  Whatever their critics may say, losing too many of them puts us right back in 'rebuild' mode.

So, after 2022 I believe our chances will be significantly diminished.  We may regularly make finals after that but it is difficult to see us being in serious contention (Prelim/GF) or winning it, as many of our current best 22 will not be on the list.  The rebuild will have been going for 10 years.  Time for another list rebuild?  Couldn't bear it. 

Not saying, we can't or wont' win a premiership by 2021/2022.  Just saying that I believe our best chance is 'now' ie the immediate future. 

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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15 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

With Roos we took the 'build that takes time' approach.  Since then Goodwin has used all our best draft chips to trade in 'recycled players' with Hibberd, Melksham, Lever, May.  We had five bob each way.  So of the two options presented, we are now in the 'pull off a miracle' space.

Our experienced good players are getting old quickly:  Lewis, Hibberd, Jones.  In a couple of years Tom Mcd, Jetta, Melksham, Gawn and May will be 30+.  Our young good players are knocking on the door of the magical 100 -150 games right now.

Given those demographics we really don't have years to strike a blow, so to speak. Our window is NOW!  

I'm glad you brought up the elephant in the room, our ageing players, it does concern me.

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4 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Y'know, Old Dee, it becomes an issue of football success being / becoming a highly offensive topic as the Coach suggests 'patience' to a Demon supporter. 'In the next few years...' has become a mantra of lies and deception. When the cycles turn, and the MFC is up there, at the top, we fall short and this pattern has become very repetitive in the span of a lifetime. 'Patience' states the outsider with a contract, indeed. It's as reliable as the blind signing of the next outsider to benefit from the desperation we display. The next year assures no promise, merely a re-entry into some imposed cycle of misery. 

I shudder to think of how many cycles I have been through. Too hard.

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17 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Our window is  WAS NOW!  

We've missed this boat. We've squandered our best chance in decades.

We will fall back to the pack permanently if not very careful. probably unavoidable now

It's not all Goodwin's fault, just most of it. We persist in a game style which bears more resemblance to Roman legions attempting to emulate the sacking of Carthage at every weekend outing. The toll was predictable.  

The blame lays square with Goodwin, McCartney and the likes of Viney Snr. All of whom envisaged some gladiatorial incarnation in red and blue. In reality we just play dumb predictable easily countered football. We dont have our best 22 because we ran them into the ground playing a ridiculously bruising style of monodimensional British Bulldog football. We simply try to push the ball through the goals. Theres no real plan, style, nuance just kick it in, keep it in,...push push  jump on ball ....somehow will it through the posts.

I have said it time and time again. We lose by DESIGN. We lose because we have no idea of actually how to play smart football. We have no understanding of tempo, we have no idea about redeploying strategies on the fly.

As long as we have the current FD set up we are doomed. It most likely cant change until personnel can be moved on or removed. This will use up valuable time among many of the players who are actually quite talented and capable , just they're instructed to play stupid football.

it's not hard to really understand why we've gone backwards.

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Sage words BB and hard to question.

The one sided gameplan has been an obvious problem for several years.

Add to that the trading of first round picks for players and the window is upon us.

The one solace I have is that five or six of our top twelve players are young and therefore provide the nucleus of a strong team. Mind you I had though Hogan was  a player you could build a flag around.

I'll give Goodwin the rest of the season to show that he has the necessary smarts. The first thing I would like to see is using Gawn's dominance to develop set plays from the centre etc.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

We've missed this boat. We've squandered our best chance in decades.

We will fall back to the pack permanently if not very careful. probably unavoidable now

It's not all Goodwin's fault, just most of it. We persist in a game style which bears more resemblance to Roman legions attempting to emulate the sacking of Carthage at every weekend outing. The toll was predictable.  

The blame lays square with Goodwin, McCartney and the likes of Viney Snr. All of whom envisaged some gladiatorial incarnation in red and blue. In reality we just play dumb predictable easily countered football. We dont have our best 22 because we ran them into the ground playing a ridiculously bruising style of monodimensional British Bulldog football. We simply try to push the ball through the goals. Theres no real plan, style, nuance just kick it in, keep it in,...push push  jump on ball ....somehow will it through the posts.

I have said it time and time again. We lose by DESIGN. We lose because we have no idea of actually how to play smart football. We have no understanding of tempo, we have no idea about redeploying strategies on the fly.

As long as we have the current FD set up we are doomed. It most likely cant change until personnel can be moved on or removed. This will use up valuable time among many of the players who are actually quite talented and capable , just they're instructed to play stupid football.

it's not hard to really understand why we've gone backwards.

I don't think we have.

In a previous thread I've talked about the writing being on the wall.

Some take this as being a negative thread and the language at times somewhat emotive.

The truth is after a continued upwards spiral from when Roos and Jackson took over there was always going to be a down year.

...I almost expected it this year, just not so bad...

Sometimes/Often you need these years to help reset and move forward.

We will have missed the boat if we don't learn the lessons of this year...it's crucial to what happens from here on.

For us to take advantage of the challenge that this year has been then changes will need to be made at a minimum in the thinking but more likely also in personal.

I would like to see a thorough external review of the club. Lets not let the opportunity slip to make needed changes.Get an outside perspective of where we sit. Sometimes the truth hurts but it will also help us grow if it helps us make the right moves.

Goodwin is still a juvenile in senior coaching terms.

Is he the man to take us forward?

Well I hope the club have a good handle on that one.

From my perspective he gets next year to prove his worth...the apprenticeship is up after this year.

Of course we made some mistakes with the list but all clubs do, it's not an exact science.

We do have a good solid core group of players, something we didn't have in the CS years.

...but our list is not as good as a lot were pumping up. It would be interesting to know the internal view.

It's how we tweak that now along with the game plan, adjustments in the FD and getting players back on track (fitness & mentally) that will be pivotal to moving forward from here on in.

 

Edited by rjay
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@rjay

id like to think there was reason to believe you're right. I however view it quite simply. Without change...there's no change.

A possibly over simplified stance but it's apt. Unless those at the helm change their ways , it's only bound to repeat, as it must.

If Goodwin maintains his entourage of cronies as currently listed then nothing will change with one caveat. It may actually get WORSE !!

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3 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Sage words BB and hard to question.

The one sided gameplan has been an obvious problem for several years.

Add to that the trading of first round picks for players and the window is upon us.

The one solace I have is that five or six of our top twelve players are young and therefore provide the nucleus of a strong team. Mind you I had though Hogan was  a player you could build a flag around.

I'll give Goodwin the rest of the season to show that he has the necessary smarts. The first thing I would like to see is using Gawn's dominance to develop set plays from the centre etc.

Entirely reasonable considerations, D_J.

It is a bad week, containing a bye, a recent series of losses amongst a batch of disappointment, and both an individual and collective discontent as to why - and how to emerge when time waits for no man.

Your gift of '...the rest of the season...' is generous; another one or two losses in the shorter term that may be aligned with your accurate considerations will be - for me - testament that the FD is not as functional, talented or suitable for the needs of the Club and its supporters, and so, must be replaced.

Our players face a rapidly reducing lifespan of football success and reward, and they deserve better.

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