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Is Goodwin the right guy....

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23 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Well if you listened to SEN this morning, Bartlett told us no review is necessary. 

He didn't say that, SWYL.

What he said was that a detailed review by an external / independent party was not necessary. He said the club continually reviews things and will do the same this year.

For what it's worth, I agree completely with this approach. The large-scale independent review may be necessary after years of poor performance. We have improved year-on-year since 2014 and this is the first time we will win less games than the year before. Our last 6 weeks have been pretty solid and have shown strong signs of 2018 save for the inside 50 efficiency and kicking for goal. 

We may need to tinker and make some adjustments but we are not in fundamental change territory.

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4 minutes ago, Scoop Junior said:

He didn't say that, SWYL.

What he said was that a detailed review by an external / independent party was not necessary. He said the club continually reviews things and will do the same this year.

For what it's worth, I agree completely with this approach. The large-scale independent review may be necessary after years of poor performance. We have improved year-on-year since 2014 and this is the first time we will win less games than the year before. Our last 6 weeks have been pretty solid and have shown strong signs of 2018 save for the inside 50 efficiency and kicking for goal. 

We may need to tinker and make some adjustments but we are not in fundamental change territory.

I know what he said. 

I don’t think an internal review is a proper review. 

We need fresh eyes to really look around. 

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3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I know what he said. 

I don’t think an internal review is a proper review. 

We need fresh eyes to really look around. 

And pay some external consultants to produce a report on the bleeding obvious? 

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2 minutes ago, Stormy Dee said:

And pay some external consultants to produce a report on the bleeding obvious? 

So what is the “obvious”

i don’t think it is obvious. P.J. retires and we fall again? 

An internal review isn’t going to unearth everything

we have been to insular...

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One of the main issues of the past 15 years is a lack of stability.  That is why Roos and Goody signed up and why Goody is extended.  he has the quality to be a great coach (at least we hope) but we need to support him.  If we sack him, get a new one, sack him in 2 years the bottom will fall out of our club once again and players will starts leaving.

I'm backing Goody, he took us to a prelim last year, now screwed over by injuries.  he would be learning a whole lot about himself and the coaches and players this year and I have no doubt we will bounce back next year.  to think our improvement would continue to be linear with such a young core group is crazy.  We had 4 years of continuous improvement and this is our blip. 

in 4-5 weeks when our returning players have some match fitness and touch, we will look a lot better and suddenly our tactics and gameplan might look ok coz we have the senior, skilled players carrying it out.

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At first I was perfectly fine with Goody getting an extension.

I'm now becoming increasingly nervous with this decision as each week rolls by, and we make the same mistakes over and over. I'm worried that Goody is too stubborn to ever concede that his game plan simply won't work, and fronting the media every week after another horrible loss telling everyone "it will turn around" is fast becoming condescending to us fans watching the same game he is. Does Goody reckon he see's something the rest of the footy world can't and that our only option right now is the stay the course and simply execute better? On one hand I understand the need to not make drastic changes whenever things don't go your way, but we are now 12 games in and whilst some players are improving as we go, some things about our game plan appear to be getting worse. It's nothing short of incredible at how drastically our scoring stats this year has changed from last year. Probably a bunch of records have been broken that no-one has bothered looking up I suspect. Normally I would advocate for players being selected on a weekly basis in accordance of their suitability to the game plan, but that has to change now. We need form based selections for the remainder of the year to keep the members sane (where suitable replacements are available of course). The first that springs to mind is Pruess for Tmac. Lockhart for Spargo. Literally anyone for Jones. 


What exactly is Goody's threshold on when our strategy needs to be reviewed and changed? Ever? At this rate all the good work of getting to 50k members will be lost and we'll go backward next year. How much longer do you reckon the club can actually survive without a flag? The iron was primed and hot in 2019, we ain't striking it though. 

 

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1 minute ago, DubDee said:

One of the main issues of the past 15 years is a lack of stability.  That is why Roos and Goody signed up and why Goody is extended.  he has the quality to be a great coach (at least we hope) but we need to support him.  If we sack him, get a new one, sack him in 2 years the bottom will fall out of our club once again and players will starts leaving.

I'm backing Goody, he took us to a prelim last year, now screwed over by injuries.  he would be learning a whole lot about himself and the coaches and players this year and I have no doubt we will bounce back next year.  to think our improvement would continue to be linear with such a young core group is crazy.  We had 4 years of continuous improvement and this is our blip. 

in 4-5 weeks when our returning players have some match fitness and touch, we will look a lot better and suddenly our tactics and gameplan might look ok coz we have the senior, skilled players carrying it out.

DD this is more than a blip. 

The skill levels are not improving and the tactical mistakes are the same each week

Something is not right, and i am not talking injuries. 

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19 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Stability is fine when a team is improving. 

We definitely have a problem in the Footy Dept somewhere, because the same things are happening each week. That is what has concerned me all year. 

The Prelim Final was akin to a Bomb Blast last year and the whole Dept  is still coming to terms with it

That’s how it feels to me

Stability is most important when things aren't going your way.  Hopefully the club have the strength to stick the course (and make some changes as they go obviously) and not panic

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1 minute ago, DubDee said:

Stability is most important when things aren't going your way.  Hopefully the club have the strength to stick the course (and make some changes as they go obviously) and not panic

But what is “The Course” I am watching it right now, and i am far from impressed at what i see weekly in 2019

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5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But what is “The Course” I am watching it right now, and i am far from impressed at what i see weekly in 2019

I know, same here.

but I'm talking over the past 5 years are you OK with how the club have done things? 

There is a small part of me that thinks we will screw this up like always and implode somehow but I trust the club, coach and management

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Just now, DubDee said:

I know, same here.

but I'm talking over the past 5 years are you OK with how the club have done things? 

There is a small part of me that thinks we will screw this up like always and implode somehow but I trust the club, coach and management

Yes. But i always felt Roos and PJ needed a longer tenure, this club was bereft of proper leadership for so long  

Sadly i am not suprised at what has happened 

The skill levels i witnessed on monday by professional footballers was a disgrace  the effort was great  

 

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49 minutes ago, Smokey said:

What exactly is Goody's threshold on when our strategy needs to be reviewed and changed? Ever? At this rate all the good work of getting to 50k members will be lost and we'll go backward next year. How much longer do you reckon the club can actually survive without a flag? The iron was primed and hot in 2019, we ain't striking it though.

On OTC Jones said they needed to find the balance between going slow and weaving our way out of the backline vs fast and playing on.  He said the intention of coming out fast was to move the ball before opp defenders get into position.   As they say:  the best laid plans of mice and men...

With hindsight I think that comment was significant.  Goodwin is trying to change it but the players haven't been able to adapt fast enogh.  I put that down to 4 years of programming to play fast, frantically and chaotically and it became second nature.  Now they are being re-programmed to play differently and it is not second nature.  Players look uncertain and are second guessing themselves and teammates.  Mistakes happen too often and confidence is lost.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that uncertainty may reflect different approaches withing the coaching panel.  On the one hand we have Jennings who has been credited with the ballistic style we play (brought with him from the Bulldogs) and McCartney who is an old school defence first type of coach.  Mixed messages to players perhaps, hence uncertainty and lost confidence?

Just not sure everyone is on the same page right now re slow vs fast footy. 

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

On OTC Jones said they needed to find the balance between going slow and weaving our way out of the backline vs fast and playing on.  He said the intention of coming out fast was to move the ball before opp defenders get into position.   As they say:  the best laid plans of mice and men...

With hindsight I think that comment was significant.  Goodwin is trying to change it but the players haven't been able to adapt fast enogh.  I put that down to 4 years of programming to play fast, frantically and chaotically and it became second nature.  Now they are being re-programmed to play differently and it is not second nature.  Players look uncertain and are second guessing themselves and teammates.  Mistakes happen too often and confidence is lost.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that uncertainty may reflect different approaches withing the coaching panel.  On the one hand we have Jennings who has been credited with the ballistic style we play (brought with him from the Bulldogs) and McCartney who is an old school defence first type of coach.  Mixed messages to players perhaps, hence uncertainty and lost confidence?

Just not sure everyone is on the same page right now re slow vs fast footy. 

Maybe the coaches could use a term that hasn't being said since the mid 00's - "tempo footy" - which really encompasses fast n slow... perhaps then everyone would be on the same page 😛

Edited by Engorged Onion
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5 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

On OTC Jones said they needed to find the balance between going slow and weaving our way out of the backline vs fast and playing on.  He said the intention of coming out fast was to move the ball before opp defenders get into position.   As they say:  the best laid plans of mice and men...

With hindsight I think that comment was significant.  Goodwin is trying to change it but the players haven't been able to adapt fast enogh.  I put that down to 4 years of programming to play fast, frantically and chaotically and it became second nature.  Now they are being re-programmed to play differently and it is not second nature.  Players look uncertain and are second guessing themselves and teammates.  Mistakes happen too often and confidence is lost.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that uncertainty may reflect different approaches withing the coaching panel.  On the one hand we have Jennings who has been credited with the ballistic style we play (brought with him from the Bulldogs) and McCartney who is an old school defence first type of coach.  Mixed messages to players perhaps, hence uncertainty and lost confidence?

Just not sure everyone is on the same page right now re slow vs fast footy. 

Tactic changes should be sorted out at training during a week or even at a 1/4 time break. If they cannot be changed they are way to difficult. 

We are in a situation where nothing has changed in 9 months. 

That is more than adapting to a new gameplan!!

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8 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

On OTC Jones said they needed to find the balance between going slow and weaving our way out of the backline vs fast and playing on.  He said the intention of coming out fast was to move the ball before opp defenders get into position.   As they say:  the best laid plans of mice and men...

With hindsight I think that comment was significant.  Goodwin is trying to change it but the players haven't been able to adapt fast enogh.  I put that down to 4 years of programming to play fast, frantically and chaotically and it became second nature.  Now they are being re-programmed to play differently and it is not second nature.  Players look uncertain and are second guessing themselves and teammates.  Mistakes happen too often and confidence is lost.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that uncertainty may reflect different approaches withing the coaching panel.  On the one hand we have Jennings who has been credited with the ballistic style we play (brought with him from the Bulldogs) and McCartney who is an old school defence first type of coach.  Mixed messages to players perhaps, hence uncertainty and lost confidence?

Just not sure everyone is on the same page right now re slow vs fast footy. 

I think our current problems re ball movement are largely the result of a lack of continuity amoung our playing list, players working their guts off to turn things around and resulting pressure they are putting on themselves to turn around season resulting in poor skill execution and conversion in our F50. 

I think we've played 38-39 of our squad of 42 players, and started the season unprepared due to interrupted preseason to virtually our entire midfield, our key forwards out of form and our first choice backs being out.

Start winning games and our players will free up and our skill execution will improve dramatically. 

Alternatively, if things don't improve then I will out it down to the 2017 camp. 

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1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Yes. But i always felt Roos and PJ needed a longer tenure, this club was bereft of proper leadership for so long  

Sadly i am not suprised at what has happened 

The skill levels i witnessed on monday by professional footballers was a disgrace  the effort was great  

 

but what is the link between lack of high level leadership and skill level?

i would think if there were issues at the top, many dominos would fall before skills on the field.  eg, player discontent, coaches leaving, arguments within the club

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7 minutes ago, DubDee said:

but what is the link between lack of high level leadership and skill level?

i would think if there were issues at the top, many dominos would fall before skills on the field.  eg, player discontent, coaches leaving, arguments within the club

What is the link between executive management in retail and the quality of customer service on the show room floor?

What is the link between military high command and frontline troops achieving objectives on the battlefield?

What is the link between school boards abd principals and the scholastic results of students?

The final domino of measurable results does not fall without a cause further up the line. If you succeed, there’s a cause. If you fail, there’s a cause. If you remain stagnant and tread water, likewise - there’s a cause. 

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is Goodwin the right man to take us forward?

i'm not sure. but what I do know is that we have don't have a good record at our home ground under him, and most of our players look totally devoid of confidence. both aren't good signs in regards to his coaching ability imo. 

also I don't think it would be the worst thing if Jennings moved on at the end of the year, and we bring in some new forward line/ midfield coaches who are all on the same page as well. preferably some with plenty of experience at clubs that can win games at the MCG.

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1 hour ago, DubDee said:

but what is the link between lack of high level leadership and skill level?

i would think if there were issues at the top, many dominos would fall before skills on the field.  eg, player discontent, coaches leaving, arguments within the club

High level Leadership needs to be a standard on every line of our Club. That is the connection. 

Look at Jeelong as an example. 2018 was a bad year for them. Between October and Christmas, they identify and sort out the remedy. After Christmas they train the new Gameplan. 

By Round 1 they are ready to go into the season. 

Leadership at all levels....

We do not have it. Both Jones and Viney are still hoping things will just happen

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1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

What is the link between executive management in retail and the quality of customer service on the show room floor?

What is the link between military high command and frontline troops achieving objectives on the battlefield?

What is the link between school boards abd principals and the scholastic results of students?

The final domino of measurable results does not fall without a cause further up the line. If you succeed, there’s a cause. If you fail, there’s a cause. If you remain stagnant and tread water, likewise - there’s a cause. 

yeah I get the theory

my point was - what is the link in this case.  for our CEO type leadership to get so bad (from excellent) in 6 months for it to be affecting skill level seems unlikely.

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1 minute ago, DubDee said:

yeah I get the theory

my point was - what is the link in this case.  for our CEO type leadership to get so bad (from excellent) in 6 months for it to be affecting skill level seems unlikely.

Good question. Unlikely does not mean improbable.

If you've worked in a team environment, which I'm sure we all have at some stage, how did you and others perform during those times when the boss was not particularly liked nor wanted?

I don't know if that is the case with Pert but that sort of thing can cast a pall over a joint quick sticks.

Like a puncture in a new tyre. Pppfffhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh …

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12 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Good question. Unlikely does not mean improbable.

If you've worked in a team environment, which I'm sure we all have at some stage, how did you and others perform during those times when the boss was not particularly liked nor wanted?

I don't know if that is the case with Pert but that sort of thing can cast a pall over a joint quick sticks.

Like a puncture in a new tyre. Pppfffhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh …

Rolling up the wrong road there RR

The problems are in different places

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Fascinating to hear Jennings brought the frantic/fast game from the Bulldogs. I did not know much about him. The problem of the fast disposals game is obvious to anyone who has ever played sport.In a team you never got across the board ability of players to act quickly on an action, employ that action and have someone else receive from your action. We must have all seen examples of what I am saying at many levels of sport over many different sports. It is why not all cricketers cant play fast bowling effectively, why some basketball players  are no good on a fast break and why you do not handball to certain team members even if they are roughly in a good position. Sure it will come off some times as it did for a burst last year but it is unsustainable and flukey as we have found out.. So Jennings if it is your plan, well good luck with your projects and move on please.

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14 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Direct answer is not possible there are so many variables.

you would get 2 first round picks for Oliver and possibly Brayshaw.

Who knows what you'd get for 2 first rounders  depends on who holds top end picks and what their needs are

No, I am not talking about first round pick. I asked if we would get a higher pick than what we gave for our high picks. So brayshaw went at 3 I think. Would we get a pick 2 for him.  I think not.

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