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38 minutes ago, Drunkn167 said:

Yeah I can understand why people would be asking questions about selection given we lost and it sucked.

It just bugs me because I know how hard these guys have worked and why they were selected, yet nearly every single poster is trying to tear into these 2 players as the reason we lost, which was always going to happen given the uproar when the teams were announced.

But if you look at the stats the main guys people are trying to blame the selection panel on were no where near the worst on ground.

I know people are angry but it gets pretty ridiculous on these forums after a loss.

Might have something to do with losing consistently for the better part of 15 years.

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This post came a few days early. Lose to the Lions it'll be closer to the mark. We should have won against a top 4 side. We're not in desperately bad shape.

But I think people can cool their jets when it comes to winning a flag. Won't be this year.

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I'm way away from the action at the moment, but fortunate in keeping contact through Dland sporadically, coverage willing.

I reckon the problem is that the coach has to get this disparate group of kids with huge potential to maintain focus on match day. Full 100 minutes of thoughts only of using all the talent they possess. They are trained measured tested etc all week but must hit the ground in a state to use every bit of capacity they have to respond to the coaches directions and any immeadiate emerging actions.

This is a team which has all the components, it is the coach who will put all the variables together to 

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2 hours ago, dpositive said:

I'm way away from the action at the moment, but fortunate in keeping contact through Dland sporadically, coverage willing.

I reckon the problem is that the coach has to get this disparate group of kids with huge potential to maintain focus on match day. Full 100 minutes of thoughts only of using all the talent they possess. They are trained measured tested etc all week but must hit the ground in a state to use every bit of capacity they have to respond to the coaches directions and any immeadiate emerging actions.

This is a team which has all the components, it is the coach who will put all the variables together to 

I don't agree dpositive we have a much improved list however we don't have all the ingredients. e.g. Who is our game winner? We have 16-18 good players then we fall away quickly. 

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12 minutes ago, old dee said:

I don't agree dpositive we have a much improved list however we don't have all the ingredients. e.g. Who is our game winner? We have 16-18 good players then we fall away quickly. 

They're there, they're just maybe not ready.

Dustin Martin wasn't a game winner at 22.

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5 hours ago, Drunkn167 said:

Let me play devils advocate here for a second. Maynard was chosen because he is a bull around stoppages. He was brought in mostly to try and quell the influence of the Cats elite midfield, which admittedly didn't work and he'll probably be dropped, but he still had 15 touches and the second most tackles out of any player.

Plus it was only his second game, and the club probably wanted to test him against a team as good as Geelong. 

I know we lost and it sucks but the outrage here is really over the top.

I think one of the biggest weaknesses of our list is not enough games across most individuals.  And the mature age recruits with barely any games experience; well they are up against it.

We have to give them games experience, any realistic chance we get.

With in-under Viney out injured, they gave another powerfully built in-under a chance to gain experience. 

For a 2 gamer I think Maynard will go far. As long as he gets plenty of opportunities.  Similarly Hannan.   And to a lesser extent Fritsch.   All these players will be key for us in future years.

It wasn't Maynard that caused the loss.  Nor Fritsch.  Nor Hannan.

Collectively we didn't click in the first half.

But by 3 Pts.  One game doesn't make a season, Nor an Autumn.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Ron. We actually lost the game...and in a number of ways starting with selection through to fades, through some one dimensional game style through to poor decisions by those that ought know better. Then there was Max

A lot to review and fix for the weekend ;)

Disagree with this, bb. We saw the emergence of a plan B and to me that's exciting and at least in coaching terms, clear progress from 2017 MFC.

In the second half, we implemented a zone that was much deeper and less aggressive than 2017 and it resulted in a strangulation of the opposition and had we kicked straight (even with Menzel's misses), we win comfortably. 

With time to digest the frustration of Sunday, I can't wait to see what we dish up this weekend. I expect us to strangle Brisbane and come away with a solid win.

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1 hour ago, ProDee said:

They're there, they're just maybe not ready.

Dustin Martin wasn't a game winner at 22.

So therefore they AREN'T there...and we haven't any...atm.

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6 hours ago, Drunkn167 said:

Yeah I can understand why people would be asking questions about selection given we lost and it sucked.

It just bugs me because I know how hard these guys have worked and why they were selected, yet nearly every single poster is trying to tear into these 2 players as the reason we lost, which was always going to happen given the uproar when the teams were announced.

But if you look at the stats the main guys people are trying to blame the selection panel on were no where near the worst on ground.

I know people are angry but it gets pretty ridiculous on these forums after a loss.

We don't blame them...i blame the selectors. 

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20 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

So therefore they AREN'T there...and we haven't any...atm.

Oliver is a match winner, as is Gawn and it won't be long before Petracca completely turns a game.

They're there. Take Oliver out of our midfield (and Viney) and I don't think we can compete against 12-14 midfielders in the competition. 

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On 27 March 2018 at 7:53 PM, Winter Dan said:

I don't think the press works for us as a game plan. Certainly that was at least the case on Sunday. we were better with a defensive sweeper. Melb have a distinct stoppage and hard ball advantage over most clubs bar arguably Sydney. The press hurts us defensively and offensively. We are better off conceding ground when the opposition wins the ball in their defence which opens up our fwd line to counter attack when we win it back.

The press is harder to defend as the switch from attack to defence happens in an instant ( so if players are napping it's all over), and it's greater area to defend (from the attacking 50 to the midfield vs midfield to def 50). It also appears to take more energy to play this way.

We look the goods when we manage to structure up an open fwd line,  but get strangled when teams flood our fwd line.

 

We are also quite a slow team across the ground WD which might also explain our inability to defend a high press.  Means we can't close ground very quickly to get in the face of opponents making it relatively easy for them to work their way through it and get out the back quickly.  They only need to find a runner out wide or over the top and they're off to the races with little chance of any of our guys catching em.

Dropping the full high zone press and instead manning up or slightly off the opponent most of the time might be our best option.  At least the opponent will be under some perceived or real pressure on the receive and we are not so vulnerable to our usual joe-the-goose.

Dont mind the concept at all and your point about our mid field grunt (including a fit Viney) being able to go with most except Sydney is spot on.  Need to use our strengths to our advantage and minimise our weaknesses.

Edited by Rusty Nails

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2 hours ago, old dee said:

I don't agree dpositive we have a much improved list however we don't have all the ingredients. e.g. Who is our game winner? We have 16-18 good players then we fall away quickly. 

OD to me Viney can lift the team and turn the momentum of a game in our favour when he is fit and on and that's about it right now.  But still not necessarily a match winner as such.  Tracc is looming as a potential.  Clarry gets a lot of it but still wouldn't call him a super star or match winner.

We are still lacking a mid fielder (or HF) who can work his way through or away from congestion with agility/pace and hit up targets/kick long goals on a regular basis and really worry our opponents.  Haven't seen this much at the MFC outside of Lyon (when he wasn't injured), Jakovich and Flower.

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1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

We are also quite a slow team across the ground WD which might also explain our inability to defend a high press.  Means we can't close ground very quickly to get in the face of opponents making it relatively easy for them to work their way through it and get out the back quickly.  They only need to find a runner out wide or over the top and they're off to the races with little chance of any of our guys catching em.

Dropping the full high zone press and instead manning up or slightly off the opponent most of the time might be our best option.  At least the opponent will be under some perceived or real pressure on the receive and we are not so vulnerable to our usual joe-the-goose.

Dont mind the concept at all and your point about our mid field grunt (including a fit Viney) being able to go with most except Sydney is spot on.  Need to use our strengths to our advantage and minimise our weaknesses.

As you say, closing speed and coverage out the back is a key to running a press, which makes me think Frost is a great fit, so it surprises me he is left out of the side.

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7 hours ago, A F said:

Oliver is a match winner, as is Gawn and it won't be long before Petracca completely turns a game.

They're there. Take Oliver out of our midfield (and Viney) and I don't think we can compete against 12-14 midfielders in the competition. 

If that were the case why did we lose to the Cats? Gawn is not a match winner we saw that on Sunday. Most of the games we won last year were when he was out injured, Hawthorn proved for years you don't need a dominate Ruckman to win flags and Richmond did last year. The best Ruckman are the ones who do more than win hit outs which is his main claim to fame. Viney is a grunt player very valuable but I don't see the skill that match winners show, it also helps if you can get on the field. Oliver is very good in fact probably our best player but he ain't there yet it might help if he kicked a bit more. 

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7 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

OD to me Viney can lift the team and turn the momentum of a game in our favour when he is fit and on and that's about it right now.  But still not necessarily a match winner as such.  Tracc is looming as a potential.  Clarry gets a lot of it but still wouldn't call him a super star or match winner.

We are still lacking a mid fielder (or HF) who can work his way through or away from congestion with agility/pace and hit up targets/kick long goals on a regular basis and really worry our opponents.  Haven't seen this much at the MFC outside of Lyon (when he wasn't injured), Jakovich and Flower.

Agree RN but not on Viney very useful grunt player but I don't see the skill that players like Martin have and with his foot problem we need to find/ develop another or two because in 2018 He will give us little. 

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20 minutes ago, old dee said:

Agree RN but not on Viney very useful grunt player but I don't see the skill that players like Martin have and with his foot problem we need to find/ develop another or two because in 2018 He will give us little. 

I agree re Viney and all the other one-foot players that we have - grunt but lacking a bit of finesse and vision.  Apart from Jones, Vince and Brayshaw, I don't think our dual foot skill levels are good enough...and that's surely a coaching and recruiting issue.  I also think that we don't yet have on-field leaders with the required skills of the like of Dangerfield, Selwood and Ablett...all from just one team!!!  Having said that, at least we are now pretty competitive and grunt is good.  Grunt plus sublime skill is better.

 

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9 minutes ago, Jimcor2 said:

I agree re Viney and all the other one-foot players that we have - grunt but lacking a bit of finesse and vision.  Apart from Jones, Vince and Brayshaw, I don't think our dual foot skill levels are good enough...and that's surely a coaching and recruiting issue.  I also think that we don't yet have on-field leaders with the required skills of the like of Dangerfield, Selwood and Ablett...all from just one team!!!  Having said that, at least we are now pretty competitive and grunt is good.  Grunt plus sublime skill is better.

 

Very well  put Jimcor2.

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10 hours ago, old dee said:

I don't agree dpositive we have a much improved list however we don't have all the ingredients. e.g. Who is our game winner? We have 16-18 good players then we fall away quickly. 

That's a good question. I always thought Watts was our K Greig game winner.

We move on.

Trac could be our Jarman Burgoyne type.

Brayshaw our Barrassi type

Hogan our Buddy, Brown, Carey, 

Even Pedersen could be a Brown, Carey, Bremerton type.

Do we have an Aker? Perhaps Viney?

no one has a Martin I think.

But we also have Garlett who could be the explosive small forward, and Max who could revolutionise rucking.Oliver feeding off him could be a winning combination.

So I still think we have the ingredients, it's now up to the coach to get them cooking

 

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Have read a few more responses and can only reiterate it is up to the coach to select and motivate the team so there is a match winner.

Most successful teams had a number of match winners with a few Big occasion players who could lift at finals time.

Again the coach has to get all the characteristics from the players and motivate them on the day to do what they have to do.

Remaining focussed for 100 minutes would be a good start.

 

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2 hours ago, old dee said:

If that were the case why did we lose to the Cats? Gawn is not a match winner we saw that on Sunday. Most of the games we won last year were when he was out injured, Hawthorn proved for years you don't need a dominate Ruckman to win flags and Richmond did last year. The best Ruckman are the ones who do more than win hit outs which is his main claim to fame. Viney is a grunt player very valuable but I don't see the skill that match winners show, it also helps if you can get on the field. Oliver is very good in fact probably our best player but he ain't there yet it might help if he kicked a bit more. 

Yep you're right, bottom 4 finish coming up for sure FMD

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42 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yep you're right, bottom 4 finish coming up for sure FMD

Massive leap there Dr. If you go back through my comments I have said we will play finals and I still believe that however I don't think we are a danger to the GF for the reasons I have stated. We do not yet have the 25 players necessary to win a spot in a GF. Let alone win one. We still don't have a match winner when the chips are down. If we did we would now be 1 and zero not the other way around.

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8 minutes ago, old dee said:

Massive leap there Dr. If you go back through my comments I have said we will play finals and I still believe that however I don't think we are a danger to the GF for the reasons I have stated. We do not yet have the 25 players necessary to win a spot in a GF. Let alone win one. We still don't have a match winner when the chips are down. If we did we would now be 1 and zero not the other way around.

Last sentence is our problem.  Was last season, no different this season.

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2 hours ago, old dee said:

Agree RN but not on Viney very useful grunt player but I don't see the skill that players like Martin have and with his foot problem we need to find/ develop another or two because in 2018 He will give us little. 

Viney nothing like a Martin or match winner OD I agree.  Simply saying that he can turn the momentume when he''s on the park and going well.   That doesn't mean we will win though.  As we saw on Sunday yet again, we often go close but still haven't found someone we can rely on to get us over the line and grab the chocolates.  Maybe this weekend we might see something a bit more special with the Easter Bunny hopping about!

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18 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Last sentence is our problem.  Was last season

Jack watts say's hi

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9 hours ago, Winter Dan said:

As you say, closing speed and coverage out the back is a key to running a press, which makes me think Frost is a great fit, so it surprises me he is left out of the side.

WD I'm no expert so I'll leave that to the coaches and recruiting staff.  All I know is footy ovals are pretty big.  There's a lot of ground to be covered.  When you have the pill you can do that by great use of the ball with good vision and skills that allow you to hit up targets quickly by hand or foot to maintain possession, no matter where the next best option might be.  If you can't see or find one you're only other option is to try and run away from your opponent or kick/paddle/hand ball the ball to your advantage and hope it bounces nicely so you can run on to it somewhere away from the opponent chasing you and reset again.

When we haven't got the ball we need to be able to close down quickly on our opponents and pressure them when they are attempting to dispose as per above and win ball back either on ground or through the air.

Either way you need a good sprinkling of players who can cover the ground quickly and are very deft of vision and skills by hand and foot (ideally both sides of the body). Obviously such players are extremely hard to come by which is why you probably only see a handful or less in most teams.  The Hawks prefer them like this but are willing to take a one sided player ....usually left footed, and it seems to work a treat for them with the game plan Clarkson runs.  At the MFC I am currently struggling to come up with one of those who has good to explosive speed, strength, vision and sublime finishing skills.   Tracc looking like he is going to be a cracker at this point.  We had one other in Watts, who had his moments in patches, but his effort side was questioned by many during the course of his career at times.  Alas he has now moved on as we decided to look elsewhere.

We still have a long way to go if we are to be a serious finals contender with the current list IMO.  Our speed, finesse and finish (especially our method of entry coming inside 50 and finding targets or getting it to their advantage) is still a big work in progress for mine and we will need many further recruits and personnel changes before becoming a genuine and consistent finals contender.

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